depends on the focues, they do not serve mere gods, they are powered by an ideal, they are the embody meant of the focues.
Battle oracles live for battle, they are part of it and good chance you will see them teaching or a part of combat for instance
Remember that the oracle has a spell list in addition to her special powers.
the bone oracle in our group was just creepy and would talk to the dead so we could question them after they killed themselves, or we killed them whichever came first. He had a great time roleplaying him and was actually pretty effective as a character outside of combat.
What does a barbarian do outside of combat, one of my most memorable characters was a half-orc barbarian with an int of 5 in 3rd edition. He would generally try to do good but since he was so stupid, and ugly, most people would take him for a crazed monster when he kicked a door in to yell a monster was coming by just yelling, "MONSTER!" I had a great time roleplaying him though.
I have to admit, I don't really understand where the "oracle" moniker comes from. As is oracles don't have any special oracular ability besides the few divination spells they may or may not select from the clerical spell list while leveling. Even so, any cleric could surpass an oracle in the divination department simply by virtue of automatically having access to all of the clerical divination spells.
can someone explain the point to being an Oracle, I know what they did in RL, but what are they supposed to do when not in combat, or are they going to get some ritual tthat allows them to divine the future?
its seems to me the witch got that....as it seams so far, If I wanted to play a fortune teller type, Im stuck with a witch.
Well, they're basically PFRPGs answer to 3.x's Favored Soul. Albeit, with a few extra powers for flavor and fun factor.
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Well, they're basically PFRPGs answer to 3.x's Favored Soul. Albeit, with a few extra powers for flavor and fun factor.can someone explain the point to being an Oracle, I know what they did in RL, but what are they supposed to do when not in combat, or are they going to get some ritual tthat allows them to divine the future?
its seems to me the witch got that....as it seams so far, If I wanted to play a fortune teller type, Im stuck with a witch.
Except that from what I've been able to see, the favored soul is better.
We have a multi-classed sorcerer 4/oracle 2 who was originally a sorcerer 4/ favored soul 2, and he hated the change because the curse screws over multiclassed characters and the class seems generally weaker.
We have a multi-classed sorcerer 4/oracle 2 who was originally a sorcerer 4/ favored soul 2, and he hated the change because the curse screws over multiclassed characters and the class seems generally weaker.
Some things are better, some things are worse. By far, the biggest advantage the favored soul has is more spells known per level.
Some of the curses are fairly harmless (Haunted, Tongues, maybe Wasting) and I like the flavour. YMMV, of course.
Between the spells and divinations, oracles seem quite adept at using prophetic abilities.
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We have a multi-classed sorcerer 4/oracle 2 who was originally a sorcerer 4/ favored soul 2, and he hated the change because the curse screws over multiclassed characters and the class seems generally weaker.Some things are better, some things are worse. By far, the biggest advantage the favored soul has is more spells known per level.
Some of the curses are fairly harmless (Haunted, Tongues, maybe Wasting) and I like the flavour. YMMV, of course.
I like (hell I love) the flavor, but there are better ways to do it that doesn't screw multi-classed characters.
For example progressive curses that get stronger as your power grows just like the benefits that way a person only taking a few levels of oracle doesn't get the complete shaft. That would require re-working the curses a little so that they aren't so top heavy bad. I've had two threads talking about it, but they didn't get much traction.
Between the spells and divinations, oracles seem quite adept at using prophetic abilities.
Sure, but any old cleric can still do it better.
We'll need to wait and see the final product before we can judge the full potential of the oracle; having only a few of the focuses to work with does not mean that they aren't good at prophetic or divine abilities, just that we haven't seen those aspects yet.
We'll need to wait and see the final product before we can judge the full potential of the oracle; having only a few of the focuses to work with does not mean that they aren't good at prophetic or divine abilities, just that we haven't seen those aspects yet.
It's true that there may be a "prophecy" focus in the works that'll make prophecy oracles into awesome prognosticators.
But if a character opts to take some other focus then there's nothing particularly oracular about the class in and of itself. It just seems like the class needs a basic prophecy related special ability to coincide with the "oracle" name or an altogether different name for the class such as "saint", "mystic", "philosopher" or what-have-you.
But if a character opts to take some other focus then there's nothing particularly oracular about the class in and of itself.
A little searching of the boards will reveal at least three or four threads on the appropriateness of the name "oracle", none of which is particularly enlightening. :-)
Between the spells and divinations, oracles seem quite adept at using prophetic abilities.Sure, but any old cleric can still do it better.
Well, except for a battle oracle when it comes to sensing and quickly reacting to a battle.
And a bones oracle when seeking out knowledge from the dead.
And a flame oracle when it comes to knowing what lies beyond that wall of flames/smoke.
And then similar things for oracles with the stone, wave, or wind foci. Which does cover every available foci at the moment.
So, again, it seems while the cleric is pretty good, in general, the oracles are capable of more focus that the cleric just can't manage. That each has abilities that past beyond the abilities of clerics. So any old cleric is not capable of doing it better.
Alright. That is a fine opinion to have.
Oracle, derives from latin orare 'to speak'
I kinda interpret as them speaking the will and wisdom of the gods, a mouthpiece through which they let their will be known basically.
Lends well to divination, but in a diverse religious setting in which granted divine powers are common, it stands to reason they have more to show for, linking them to specific deities / religions does not seem a far stretch.
mere gods
Care to say that to my face?
Albeit, with a few extra powers for flavor and fun factor.
Well, the class was overpowered: More spells known than a sorcerer (they basically get the two domains to their spells known, except that they don't have to stick to any theme with their extra spells) and better saves than a cleric.
Of course, there was the part where their magic was based on two ability scores rather than one. That can't be good.
Oh, and can we stop the oracle name discussion? We all know a lot of people don't like the name, and think it doesn't fit.
We also know that the name is final.
Save your keyboard some wear and tear.
mere godsCare to say that to my face?
Sure dead boy...ah humm "Mere gods" Happy now? Oh we also auctioned off your temples...one of em made a fine bordello I have been told.
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Albeit, with a few extra powers for flavor and fun factor.Well, the class was overpowered: More spells known than a sorcerer (they basically get the two domains to their spells known, except that they don't have to stick to any theme with their extra spells) and better saves than a cleric.
Of course, there was the part where their magic was based on two ability scores rather than one. That can't be good.
I didn't say that here, are you quoting something I said in another thread?
favoured soul wasn't all that, less armor than a cleric, no domain powers and a limited set of known spells, no turn undead hurt alot also no spontaneous curing.
comparing to sorcerer is hard, since the spell lists are different.
Oracle doesn't seem a bad class to me, I kinda like how Inquisitor and Oracle put some flavour back in a priest type character.
Possible it got cross posted knight, that sometimes happens if ya have tow windows open.
That does happen as well. Odd but I have had the cross posting happen to me 4 times this week. So I figed that might have happened here as well
Albeit, with a few extra powers for flavor and fun factor.Well, the class was overpowered: More spells known than a sorcerer (they basically get the two domains to their spells known, except that they don't have to stick to any theme with their extra spells) and better saves than a cleric.
The favored soul was not overpowered by a long shot, at least not compared to clerics, druids, wizards, etc.
Sure dead boymere godsCare to say that to my face?
What about mine, gnat? Wait, I'll get my head all the way down to yours.
I didn't say that here, are you quoting something I said in another thread?Albeit, with a few extra powers for flavor and fun factor.Well, the class was overpowered: More spells known than a sorcerer (they basically get the two domains to their spells known, except that they don't have to stick to any theme with their extra spells) and better saves than a cleric.
Of course, there was the part where their magic was based on two ability scores rather than one. That can't be good.
Something got mixed up in my quoting there. I was referring to the part where you said that the FS was more powerful than the oracle.
What about mine, gnat? Wait, I'll get my head all the way down to yours.Sure dead boymere godsCare to say that to my face?
Sure I have no clue who ya are so at best ya might be some 3rd rate wanna be Mere god. At lest the dead guy was known, your like a c list movie star...well d list maybe as I am drawing a blank here
, no domain powers and a limited set of known spells, no turn undead hurt alot also no spontaneous curing.
You cast everything spontaneously as a favoured soul. That includes curing - especially heal. They got a lot of spells known (2 spells over a sorcerer), so they could afford getting healing spells.
Turn Undead only hurt if you were allowed those overpowered divine feats.
Oracle doesn't seem a bad class to me, I kinda like how Inquisitor and Oracle put some flavour back in a priest type character.
I don't consider the cleric to be flavour-less, but the new classes do add more to the priests.
Sure I have no clue who ya are so at best ya might be some 3rd rate wanna be Mere god. At lest the dead guy was known, your like a c list movie star...well d list maybe as I am drawing a blank hereWhat about mine, gnat? Wait, I'll get my head all the way down to yours.Sure dead boymere godsCare to say that to my face?
It's true what they say: Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
I'd avoid dragons for the next couple of thousand years.
But what can you expect from some dusty tomb-squatter mired in ancient traditions and blind tot he present?
Oh, and can we stop the oracle name discussion? We all know a lot of people don't like the name, and think it doesn't fit.
We also know that the name is final.
Save your keyboard some wear and tear.
that is what they all say, and then they still change their minds.
Wanna bet? :D
eh dragons, over grown lizards with massive egos. Fun at party's though
that is what they all say, and then they still change their minds.
At this point in time, to much work has already gone into pre production of the book to just change a random name you don't like, that one change could hold it up for weeks or more. The name is not changing and is set in stone
, no domain powers and a limited set of known spells, no turn undead hurt alot also no spontaneous curing.
You cast everything spontaneously as a favoured soul. That includes curing - especially heal. They got a lot of spells known (2 spells over a sorcerer), so they could afford getting healing spells.
Turn Undead only hurt if you were allowed those overpowered divine feats.
I don't consider the cleric to be flavour-less, but the new classes do add more to the priests.
Oracle doesn't seem a bad class to me, I kinda like how Inquisitor and Oracle put some flavour back in a priest type character.
I have no doubt FS was better than a sorcerer, priest was better than wizard to, it's tradition.
I did allow those overpowered divine feats, though without high ability scores and not as much free flowing magic as in other campaigns I do not think they were all that.
no domains and spontaneous curing, combined with a limited spell list and two ability scores for casting, altogether I can't say they were really better than a cleric. Just got a better deal than a sorcerer.
At least we agree Oracle and Inquisitor aren't half bad ^^
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Wanna bet? :DOh, and can we stop the oracle name discussion? We all know a lot of people don't like the name, and think it doesn't fit.
We also know that the name is final.
Save your keyboard some wear and tear.
that is what they all say, and then they still change their minds.
rule #1 on betting: Never bet wit hthe person who says ya wanna bet first.
when the 4e came out, every one was sure of 3 future power sources, Ki, Elemental and Shadow.
wotc changed their minds and canned the KI powersource.now Paizo and Wotc are not the same groups, yes thats true, however between now and when the APG is released, they can as they do see fit to either make the Oracle have a vision feature that goes along with their foci, or completely change the classes name, or not at their whim.
The former has a chance of happening, the latter...
I wouldn't give even a snowballs chance.
Turn Undead only hurt if you were allowed those overpowered divine feats.
You seem to have a very loose grasp on what's overpowered. The Divine Feats aren't overpowered. What's overpowered are nightsticks to let you use them by spending money rather than daily turn attempts. Without nightsticks, even the most powerful of the Divine Feats, Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell, can be used ... once. Maybe. If you've got a lot of Charisma or invested another feat in Extra Turning.
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Turn Undead only hurt if you were allowed those overpowered divine feats.You seem to have a very loose grasp on what's overpowered. The Divine Feats aren't overpowered. What's overpowered are nightsticks to let you use them by spending money rather than daily turn attempts. Without nightsticks, even the most powerful of the Divine Feats, Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell, can be used ... once. Maybe. If you've got a lot of Charisma or invested another feat in Extra Turning.
And nightsticks wouldn't matter if Ruby Knight Vindicator and the divine feats didn't exist.
It's kinda a chicken and the egg thing.
And nightsticks wouldn't matter if Ruby Knight Vindicator and the divine feats didn't exist.
It's kinda a chicken and the egg thing.
The Divine Feats came first. Complete Divine was published in May 2004 (and Defenders of the Faith, the 3.0 version that truly introduced Divine Feats, was published in 2001); Libris Mortis, where the nightstick is from, was published in October 2004. When concept A exists and is fine, then some concept B comes along and breaks things, is it A or B that is broken? Most people would say B.
And nightsticks are broken in their own right anyway. Even if the only thing they're used for is turning undead, raising the number of times you can do it infinitely just by spending money is broken. Turn Undead wasn't intended to be used without thinking about the cost, the way low level spells (the ones that can be put in wands and potions) are. The feats and class abilities that use Turn Undead especially weren't intended to be used infinitely per day.
And, BTW, even with nightsticks, Ruby Knight Vindicators aren't broken, at least not the way the Chicken Littles scream about. Divine Impetus allows one extra swift action per round, not as many as you have turn attempts. You can argue that multiple swift actions is broken (and I've done that very thing on these boards), but every complaint I've seen about RKV has cited infinite swift actions.
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And nightsticks wouldn't matter if Ruby Knight Vindicator and the divine feats didn't exist.
It's kinda a chicken and the egg thing.
The Divine Feats came first. Complete Divine was published in May 2004 (and Defenders of the Faith, the 3.0 version that truly introduced Divine Feats, was published in 2001); Libris Mortis, where the nightstick is from, was published in October 2004. When concept A exists and is fine, then some concept B comes along and breaks things, is it A or B that is broken? Most people would say B.
And nightsticks are broken in their own right anyway. Even if the only thing they're used for is turning undead, raising the number of times you can do it infinitely just by spending money is broken. Turn Undead wasn't intended to be used without thinking about the cost, the way low level spells (the ones that can be put in wands and potions) are. The feats and class abilities that use Turn Undead especially weren't intended to be used infinitely per day.
And, BTW, even with nightsticks, Ruby Knight Vindicators aren't broken, at least not the way the Chicken Littles scream about. Divine Impetus allows one extra swift action per round, not as many as you have turn attempts. You can argue that multiple swift actions is broken (and I've done that very thing on these boards), but every complaint I've seen about RKV has cited infinite swift actions.
Okay, lets put it in another light.
Turn attempts on their own are specifically designed against one opponent. Not everyone. In that circumstance, even if you had a million turn attempts, there is nothing they will do if you aren't against an undead foe.
Along come the divine metamagic feats, which give you another use for turn attempts. Again, this gives clerics a use for turn attempts outside the norm, usable in most if not all situations. (AMF being the exception to prove the rule in this case). However, this is an alternative use of the turn attempt, this in itself gives them a tangible real benefit beyond the ability to command of destroy undead creatures.
Now they're useful against the entire board.
Nightsticks wouldn't matter as much if all they could be used for was to turn or rebuke undead. I'm sorry but that argument isn't all that useful, considering that after level 8 or so, creatures start resisting it and it becomes rather useless in a mid to high level game. This is a proven fact and the reason you don't GET cleric who focus on turning a lot. Aside from the screwball trying to turn Vecna every now and then.
Add in Divine Metamagic, and suddenly you're looking at game changing events. Now you have your CODzilla, your brutes and your destroyers who can quicken persist and destroy the board all the while not sacrificing much of ANYTHING.
Nightsticks aren't broken until divine metamagic gets involved or as you point out Ruby Knight Vindicator and the double swift actions. Otherwise they're a rather sub-useful ability in mid to high level games where undead come standard with turn undead. You'd be awesome in one encounter and that's IT. It's no different from paladin smite or ranger preferred enemy at that point.
TL;DR
Nightsticks are broken because divine metamagic exists. Divine Metamagic is broken because nightsticks exist. Both cannot coexist in the same system.
be that as it may, divine feats weren't broken in my campaign, clerics couldnt really afford the charisma to be on par with paladins use, and for paladins it worked well enough to make them very acceptable warriors.
when the 4e came out, every one was sure of 3 future power sources, Ki, Elemental and Shadow.
wotc changed their minds and canned the KI powersource.now Paizo and Wotc are not the same groups, yes thats true,
They couldn't be more different.
Basing any prediction about Paizo's behaviour on wizards' actions is going to be as sensible as deciding what clothes to pack for your trip to the Caribbean based on the weather of your native Siberia.
however between now and when the APG is released, they can as they do see fit to either make the Oracle have a vision feature that goes along with their foci, or completely change the classes name, or not at their whim.
They could. But they won't change the name after they have said repeatedly that it was final.
They might try to give every focus a revelation tied to divination, but it's not a given. They could just go with "'Oracle' basically means 'speaker'" and just make them representatives of the concept in question.
The oracle of knowledge (or however they'll call that focus) will probably have more than one, but an oracle of war will represent battle by "speaking" with its fists.
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be that as it may, divine feats weren't broken in my campaign, clerics couldnt really afford the charisma to be on par with paladins use, and for paladins it worked well enough to make them very acceptable warriors.
Right, so because they didn't buy nightsticks at 2k a pop and load up on turn uses to put into the divine metamagic feats, they weren't broken....
be that as it may, divine feats weren't broken in my campaign, clerics couldnt really afford the charisma to be on par with paladins use, and for paladins it worked well enough to make them very acceptable warriors.Right, so because they didn't buy nightsticks at 2k a pop and load up on turn uses to put into the divine metamagic feats, they weren't broken....
pretty much that was a problem with nightsticks:
'The Almighty One struck down his Fiery Sword of the Heavens and the nightsticks were no more and thus all was well once more in Lala-land'
I could call this a stroke of genius on my part