Multiattack


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge Premier Event Coordinator

Maybe I'm reading this feat wrong, but I thought that all creatures had one primary attack form and 1+ secondary ones. All secondary attack forms take a -5 penalty to hit unless you have the multiattack feat which reduces the penalty to -2. However, in reviewing nearly every creature in the Bestiary with two claws and a bite, neither attack form is listed with the penalty and few have the multiattack feat. So either I am wrong in assuming that there is only one primary attack mode or, for some reason, the stat block does not apply the penalty. Can anyone help me understand this one?


The whole thing is pretty borked, and quite contradictory.

See this thread for more discussion and confusion :p
Here


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
TwilightKnight wrote:
So either I am wrong in assuming that there is only one primary attack mode or, for some reason, the stat block does not apply the penalty. Can anyone help me understand this one?

You are wrong :). This is a definate change from 3.5 to the Pathfinder system. Basically it works as follows:

If a creature has only one type of attack it is a primary attack.

If a creature has multiple types of attack, refence table 3-1 (beastairy p.302) and match the Natural Attack and the Attack Type to determine wether an attack is primary or secondary.

If a creature wields manufactured weapon(s) hand the weapon attacks normally, and all attacks with natural weapons are considered secondary.

Most of the bite/claw/claw attacks you are looking at are correctly written as all being primary attacks.

Grand Lodge Premier Event Coordinator

In that case, the Multiattack feat is, at best, devalued to the point of a character trait or, at worst, worthless. The only creatures to gain any value at all are those with an extraordinarily high number of attacks (like dragons with claw, claw, bite, wing slam, wing slam, tail slap) and even then does it really matter? Most dragons old enough to have those attacks have an attack roll so high in relation to their opponents, the reduction in penalty from -5 to -2 is meaningless. So what use is the feat to an animal companion when they receive it as a bonus? What does my badger, cat, wolf, etc. gain with the feat?


TwilightKnight wrote:
In that case, the Multiattack feat is...(remove unnecessary words)...worthless.

This :)

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

It's worthwhile for creatures that use weapons. Taking -2 on all your secondary attacks instead of -5 is significant.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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TwilightKnight wrote:
In that case, the Multiattack feat is, at best, devalued to the point of a character trait or, at worst, worthless. The only creatures to gain any value at all are those with an extraordinarily high number of attacks (like dragons with claw, claw, bite, wing slam, wing slam, tail slap) and even then does it really matter? Most dragons old enough to have those attacks have an attack roll so high in relation to their opponents, the reduction in penalty from -5 to -2 is meaningless. So what use is the feat to an animal companion when they receive it as a bonus? What does my badger, cat, wolf, etc. gain with the feat?

Multiattack certainly went from being what was almost a feat tax in 3rd edition to something that isn't a requirement for most monsters. That's one MAJOR reason we changed the way secondary attacks work. The other was that by linking each type of natural attack to always being a primary or secondary attack, we can list values for all attacks for a monster without worrying if those attacks are going to be full attacks or what; this lets us not use separate "Attack" and "Full attack" entries in stat blocks, for one. It also simplifies things from a game play element.

But Multiattack is FAR from worthless. It's a great attack for monsters that use lots of wings, tentacles, or hooves. Aberrations, for one. Dragons, for another. But the BEST use for Multiattack is for a creature that uses wielded weapons and natural attacks (like lizardfolk, xills, minotaurs, etc.) since if you use a manufactured weapon, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks.

The fact that animal companions get it as a bonus feat is something that many animals won't care about, it's true. and THAT bit might need to be errataed so that instead of getting the bonus feat, animals simply get a second attack with one of its natural weapons at a –5 penalty (as if it were an animal companion that does not have 3 or more natural attacks).

Liberty's Edge

On behalf of the post I opened before here, I thank you for the clarification Mr Jacobs.


/applause.

Try getting THAT kinda honcho input from any other competitive brands :p

Grand Lodge Premier Event Coordinator

James Jacobs wrote:
Multiattack certainly went from...

And this is why Paizo and the Pathfinder brand is without a doubt the best in the market. Thanks for your response Mr. Jacobs, I appreciate your incite.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
since if you use a manufactured weapon, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks.

Hey, can I get a source for this? Like Core Rulebook or Bestiary page?

Thanks

Scarab Sages

Austin Morgan wrote:
Hey, can I get a source for this? Like Core Rulebook or Bestiary page?

I don't know what page it's on (too lazy), but it's under the natural attacks section of the universal monster rules section of the Bestiary.

Scarab Sages

Bestiary page 302, about halfway down on the left side

"Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."


say I create a summoner with bipedal eidolon. Say I give it 2 more arms through evolutions and pick up the multiattack feat. Are the 4 claws considered primary and if I use 4 simple weapons instead are the simple weapons secondary. And in this case the 4 weapon attacks will be at -2 each? could this player alternately call the weapon attacks primary and the claws secondary?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 8

deaconabyss wrote:
say I create a summoner with bipedal eidolon. Say I give it 2 more arms through evolutions and pick up the multiattack feat. Are the 4 claws considered primary and if I use 4 simple weapons instead are the simple weapons secondary. And in this case the 4 weapon attacks will be at -2 each? could this player alternately call the weapon attacks primary and the claws secondary?

The claw attacks, being natural, become secondary the instant your eidolon wields a manufactured weapon as part of its attack. You don't get to decide which are primary or secondary. The inclusion of a manufactured weapon as part of the attack will cause any natural attack to be treated as secondary, always.

Secondly, I don't believe your eidolon could make claw attacks with hands currently wielding weapons. An eidolon with 4 clawed hands could wield two simple weapons and leave two hands unarmed for two manufactured weapon attacks and two claw attacks. The eidolon would forgo any claw attacks with the full hands in favour of the simple weapon. If the eidolon had a weapon in each hand, it could attack with all four weapons, but it would give up all claw attacks in this case.

Thirdly, as soon as you put multiple weapons in hand, you leave the purvue of Multi-Attack, since it applies to natural attacks. In order to reduce the penalties for dual-wielding, your eidolon would need Two-Weapon Fighting. To reduce the penalties for wielding 4 simple weapons, your eidolon would need Multi-Weapon Fighting. Wielding multiple manufactured weapons incurs a whole other set of penalties separate from the distinction between primary and secondary natural attacks. Multi-Attack reduces the penalties for your secondary natural attacks, but would have no impact on your multiple manufactured weapons.

If the eidolon has no manufactured weapons in hand, the claw attacks are all primary and suffer no penalties.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
shiverscar wrote:

The claw attacks, being natural, become secondary the instant your eidolon wields a manufactured weapon as part of its attack. You don't get to decide which are primary or secondary. The inclusion of a manufactured weapon as part of the attack will cause any natural attack to be treated as secondary, always.

Secondly, I don't believe your eidolon could make claw attacks with hands currently wielding weapons. An eidolon with 4 clawed hands could wield two simple weapons and leave two hands unarmed for two manufactured weapon attacks and two claw attacks. The eidolon would forgo any claw attacks with the full hands in favour of the simple weapon. If the eidolon had a weapon in each hand, it could attack with all four weapons, but it would give up all claw attacks in this case.

Thirdly, as soon as you put multiple weapons in hand, you leave the purvue of Multi-Attack, since it applies to natural attacks. In order to reduce the penalties for dual-wielding, your eidolon would need Two-Weapon Fighting. To reduce the penalties for wielding 4 simple weapons, your eidolon would need Multi-Weapon Fighting. Wielding multiple manufactured weapons incurs a whole other set of penalties separate from the distinction between primary and secondary natural attacks. Multi-Attack reduces the penalties for your secondary natural attacks, but would have no impact on your multiple manufactured weapons.

If the eidolon has no manufactured weapons in hand, the claw attacks are all primary and suffer no penalties.

Wouldn't an Eidolon with 4 arms get two Main hand attacks (upper right hand and lower right hand) and two off-hand attacks (upper/lower left) SO with the multiattack feat he would get two main hand attacks at Full BAB+Sta and two Claw attacks at -2+STA. As least that's how I read it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 8

Quote:
Wouldn't an Eidolon with 4 arms get two Main hand attacks (upper right hand and lower right hand) and two off-hand attacks (upper/lower left) SO with the multiattack feat he would get two main hand attacks at Full BAB+Sta and two Claw attacks at -2+STA. As least that's how I read it.

No. You have one main hand no matter how many hands or noodly appendages you flail about, so long as we're talking about wielded weapons. Manufactured weapons suffer from penalties for wielding more than one weapon. If you have more than one weapon in hand, despite the vast array of hands you might have, you take penalties. So Right Hand A, your primary hand (apologies to south-paws for the right-hand bias) is wielding a stick. Right Hand B, below Right Hand A, is also wielding a stick. That's two weapons. You're dual-wielding. Right Hand A and Right Hand B take penalties appropriate for dual-wielding weapons (-6 to main hand, -10 to off hand, unless these are light sticks, in which case it's -4 and -8 respectively).

As for the claws, in this case you're right. With multiattack, you'd only suffer a -2 penalty to your attack roll. Just remember you only apply 1/2 STR for damage for secondary natural attacks (unless it says otherwise in the description of the natural attack).


j b 200 wrote:

Wouldn't an Eidolon with 4 arms get two Main hand attacks (upper right hand and lower right hand) and two off-hand attacks (upper/lower left) SO with the multiattack feat he would get two main hand attacks at Full BAB+Sta and two Claw attacks at -2+STA. As least that's how I read it.

Yes, but only if both right hands were wielding the same 2-handed weapon, and both left hands were wielding the same 2-handed weapon.

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