OK, iv seen alot of people asking why the summmoner cant summon better. and i do agree. but i actually have a idea i want some peoples opinions on, and if it seems good maybe it will catch Jasons eye and he might weigh in on the idea.
Basicly it seems like the summoner should be better at Summoning then the run of the mill wizard. so heres a thought, wha tif the summmoner could evolve his summmons, not just his Eidolon. startign at maybe 4th level he could move some of his evolution points into a modification Pool that instead goes to his Summoned creatures. similar to how he can modify himself, he would begin to tweak his Summons to his personal preferances. it would hav eot be limited as to how much he transfered but it might give him the edge on summoning everyone wants.
Or maybe a new class of summoner spefic spells somewhat in line with astral construct in design (dont know if Paizo is able to touch that or not).
Example
Summon Eidolon I
Conjuration [summoning]
Level: Summoner 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 2
Components: S,M,V
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Close
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving throw: none
Spell Resistance: Yes, See text
[Insert Spell Text here]
You know this is just a thought, and though its not quite a playtest topic specificly i want to know how people feel the idea migth work out.
spell text would read something like
"This spell Fuctions as either Summon Monster I or Summon Natures Ally I exepct that the summoned Creature(s) may be modified useing 1 evolution point per 2 caster levels (min 1) from the choices listed on Evolution Table XX-XX"
anyone care to weigh in on this?
Switch the full round casting time to a standard action and decrease the number of monsters that can be summoned using the higher level spells(Summon Monster2 =1 lv2 monster or 1d2 lv1 monsters and so on), to a minimum of one.
I like the spell idea. +1
well i am baseing the idea off wizards learn it too, jus tnot as quickly. its a specailized version of summon monster/ally. as such reducing the number of creatures seems a little harsh. as for the reduced casting time, thats iffy. maybe add at end of spell
Special: Summoners cast this spell as a standard action instead of full round
Prototype Evolution Chart for Summoning Evolution Spell
1 Point Evolutions
Buff (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect gains an extra 5 hit points.
Celerity (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect land speed is increased by 10 feet.
Deflection (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect gains a +1 deflection bonus to Armor Class.
Fly (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect has physical wings and a fly speed of 20 feet (average).
Improved Natural Attack (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect gains the Improved Natural Attack feat.
Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: fire, cold, acid, electricity, or sonic. The Eidolon Aspect gains resistance 5 against that energy type.
Swim (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect is streamlined and shark like, and gains a swim speed of 30 feet.
Climb (Ex): An Eidolon Aspect becomes a skilled climber, gaining a climb speed equal to its base speed. This evolution can be selected more than once. Each additional time it is selected, increase the eidolon’s climb speed by 20 feet.
Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An Eidolon Aspect ’s hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor.
Skilled (Ex): An Eidolon Aspect becomes especially adept at a specific skill, gaining a +8 racial bonus on that skill. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an Eidolon Aspect selects this evolution, it applies to a different skill
spell text would read something like
"This spell Fuctions as either Summon Monster I or Summon Natures Ally I exepct that the summoned Creature(s) may be modified useing 1 evolution point per 2 caster levels (min 1) from the choices listed on Evolution Table XX-XX"
anyone care to weigh in on this?
Now THIS is a proposal that would truly make the Summoner a pain in the ass to the group to play at the table (or a second job to play without being a pain in the ass to the group). Summoning bunches of monsters only works if you've got the monsters' stats already pre-figured and at hand so you don't have to dive through books.
Adding evolution points to the mix makes it so that you have several billion potential summons.
It'd be awesome for a computer game where the DM can automatically adjudicate the evolution points for you and you don't have to worry about slowing the game down or writing down and keeping track of stats for half a dozen highly-modified beasties. I don't think it's a good idea for a pencil and paper game.
Prototype Evolution Chart for Summoning Evolution Spell
1 Point Evolutions
Buff (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect gains an extra 5 hit points.
Celerity (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect land speed is increased by 10 feet.
Deflection (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect gains a +1 deflection bonus to Armor Class.
Fly (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect has physical wings and a fly speed of 20 feet (average).
Improved Natural Attack (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect gains the Improved Natural Attack feat.
Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: fire, cold, acid, electricity, or sonic. The Eidolon Aspect gains resistance 5 against that energy type.
Swim (Ex): The Eidolon Aspect is streamlined and shark like, and gains a swim speed of 30 feet.
Climb (Ex): An Eidolon Aspect becomes a skilled climber, gaining a climb speed equal to its base speed. This evolution can be selected more than once. Each additional time it is selected, increase the eidolon’s climb speed by 20 feet.
Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An Eidolon Aspect ’s hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor.
Skilled (Ex): An Eidolon Aspect becomes especially adept at a specific skill, gaining a +8 racial bonus on that skill. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an Eidolon Aspect selects this evolution, it applies to a different skill
The evolution of improved damaged is not a bonus feat of improved natural attack. However it is similar
Improved Damage (Ex): One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
Now THIS is a proposal that would truly make the Summoner a pain in the ass to the group to play at the table (or a second job to play without being a pain in the ass to the group). Summoning bunches of monsters only works if you've got the monsters' stats already pre-figured and at hand so you don't have to dive through books.Adding evolution points to the mix makes it so that you have several billion potential summons.
It'd be awesome for a computer game where the DM can automatically adjudicate the evolution points for you and you don't have to worry about slowing the game down or writing down and keeping track of stats for half a dozen highly-modified beasties. I don't think it's a good idea for a pencil and paper game.
I totally agree that this would make it a pain in the butt to do because it would eat up time unless all the stats were worked out ahead of time.
Well working out the stats ahead of time is a must at gaming tables where i play, so i don't see a problem with this one - its easy as "You don't have stat blocks for monsters with evolutions ? Even a few ? Okey, you can summon them without evolutions" - after all its players job to take care of his character, if DM can prepare few NPC's per session, their speeches, their personalities, quest hooks, quests, dungeons, BBEG, etc.
player who willingly set out to play something as time consuming outside the table as lets say what OP is suggesting gotta do it before hand, otherwise he can't really expect to waste time at the table doing the required math.
Also what would probably be a little faster and less time consuming is if Summoner was to pick evolutions before hand for all of the summons.
For example, at level 4 he gets 1 evolution point for his summons, he spends it on lets say - Improved Damage, all of the creatures got Improved Damage evolution, and be able to switch every level or every level when he gets new points to his summon monster evolution pool. I think this would simplify things greatly for player and for DM.
I totally agree that this would make it a pain in the butt to do because it would eat up time unless all the stats were worked out ahead of time.
Now THIS is a proposal that would truly make the Summoner a pain in the ass to the group to play at the table (or a second job to play without being a pain in the ass to the group). Summoning bunches of monsters only works if you've got the monsters' stats already pre-figured and at hand so you don't have to dive through books.Adding evolution points to the mix makes it so that you have several billion potential summons.
It'd be awesome for a computer game where the DM can automatically adjudicate the evolution points for you and you don't have to worry about slowing the game down or writing down and keeping track of stats for half a dozen highly-modified beasties. I don't think it's a good idea for a pencil and paper game.
well handling the particulairs of how you evoled the new creature would fall unto the player. however i dont for see it slowing down it gameplay much if at all when compared to standard summon monster. you still ahve to look up the entry reguardless. but then again thats a personal issue. anyone who ever uses summon monster or astral construct much shouldnt even be slowed by it. there is more to the list then lsited, im still tweaking it, but considering when you finally got 10 points to work with you would be 20th level. i am planning to attempt to go to 5 point choices
spell text would read something like
"This spell Fuctions as either Summon Monster I or Summon Natures Ally I exepct that the summoned Creature(s) may be modified useing 1 evolution point per 2 caster levels (min 1) from the choices listed on Evolution Table XX-XX"
anyone care to weigh in on this?
Now THIS is a proposal that would truly make the Summoner a pain in the ass to the group to play at the table (or a second job to play without being a pain in the ass to the group). Summoning bunches of monsters only works if you've got the monsters' stats already pre-figured and at hand so you don't have to dive through books.
Adding evolution points to the mix makes it so that you have several billion potential summons.
It'd be awesome for a computer game where the DM can automatically adjudicate the evolution points for you and you don't have to worry about slowing the game down or writing down and keeping track of stats for half a dozen highly-modified beasties. I don't think it's a good idea for a pencil and paper game.
I agree this could grind a game to a halt as a slower gamer pokes through their things to find the notes or such, but this could be easily corrected with well organized summon cards. A cheap, quick, print-and-toss card would do the trick. Summons now that are unpreped really slow things down if they choose multiple monsters.
The concept is very interesting, and certainly worth exploring, but balance issues would enter too as some combinations could overpower the spell. Would it be better to create new summoner spells seperate from regular summons?
But the summoner is a pet class not a summoning class.
But the summoner is a pet class not a summoning class.
Does it have to be? I can appreciate your perspective, but customization is what makes pen and paper tabletop fun. It's the same concept behind not having a lawful-good paladin (or anything else out of Aracana Unearthed). This class is just a variant of another core class... why can't it go from being a pet class to a summoning class (it IS the summoner after all, another thread points out some people's desire for a name change, I like it though.) This just changes the direction a little closer to the original class, a Conjurer focued on summon spells. Having new spells would only make it easier to have a closer to prefab monster. I guess that prefabs would make it a moot point though.
This class is just a variant of another core class.
No, it isn't. Not even close. The closest class to the Summoner in Core (or in 3.5 for that matter, counting all of the WotC splats) is the Druid, and it's not a terribly close comparison. The Summoner is most certainly not a variant of the Conjurer.
Does it have to be?No, but to stop it from being so changes the class a lot and then it'd be compared to the druid and when that happens it looses, the druid is just to kick ass for you to make a class comparable.
I can appreciate your perspective, but customization is what makes pen and paper tabletop fun. It's the same concept behind not having a lawful-good paladin (or anything else out of Aracana Unearthed). This class is just a variant of another core class... why can't it go from being a pet class to a summoning class (it IS the summoner after all, another thread points out some people's desire for a name change, I like it though.) This just changes the direction a little closer to the original class, a Conjurer focued on summon spells. Having new spells would only make it easier to have a closer to prefab monster. I guess that prefabs would make it a moot point though.
I don't disagree that all the groovy stuff in the arcana unearthed isn't, well, groovy. but making it not a single pet class just changes the point (of the class) entirely.