Ok, I am trying to build a somewhat maximized half-orc melee summoner.
I want to get advice on where I could have optimized him a little further than what I did.
3rd Level Half-Orc (20 point build)
STR 19 DEX 11 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 7 CHA 16
AC 14 (chain shirt)
Feats: Conjuration/Augment Summoning
Wielding: Great Axe (plan on taking weapon focus great axe next feat) this gives me +7 to hit with 1d12 + 4 dmg on a hit
Medium Biped Eidolon
STR 18 DEX 13 CON 13 INT 7 WIS 10 CHA 11
Evo Pool (5 points): Improved Armor, Improved Damage, Reach, Slam, Magic Attacks
AC 17, Attk: 2 slams (+8 hit) for 1d10+4 dmg each hit.
On both I am using stat point to raise STR generally to max out that.
So questions I have:
1) for the half orc summoner - should I go falchion or stick with great axe? does any other race work as well for a melee summoner standing in the front with his eidolon?
2) what summon monster works best at this point - I have generally just used my summon monster II ability to summon 1d3 riding dogs since they seem to be the most powerful unit at this time (free trip attacks). the summon monster II creatures did not impress me very much so I just pull out more of the 1st level version... good plan?
3) could the eidolon be built any better? im no expert at this but I wanted my guy to be big and strong and fight next to my big and strong soul-mate. I am also wondering if I did it correctly because I have seen other peoples builds that seem to do 2d8 dmg instead of 1d10 which is what I have on mine.
4) any other advice?
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1) For the falchion or great axe, ask yourself, do you want a higher chance to crit or more damage when you crit? Half-Orc is a good choice for fighting alongside the eidolon, especially since they both have darkvision(helps make night-time ambushes a bit easier, and torches give away your positions at night).
2)The goblin dog is a decent choice, since anything that hits it with a melee weapon has to make a Fort save when it's dander flies into the air.
3)Since slam starts at 1d8, it increases to 2d6 with Improved Damage(look at the Improved Natural Weapon Feat).
4)Take a little time to look over each monster you can summon to get a feel for their stats and to help learn which one will help the most with the current situation. Riding dogs may be able to trip, but they can fight flying archers.
your axe would actually do 1d12+6 (1&1/2 STR for 2-handed)
for a second slam you need to purchase a second pair of limbs. (Unless there's something i missed) The slam should deal 2d6 damage (as per the chart on increasing weapon damage by size)
your axe would actually do 1d12+6 (1&1/2 STR for 2-handed)
for a second slam you need to purchase a second pair of limbs. (Unless there's something i missed) The slam should deal 2d6 damage (as per the chart on increasing weapon damage by size)
So a SLAM is considered a 2-fisted attack?
Whats the best way to build him - do I stick with 2 claw attack with upgraded damage? or is it best to go upgraded dmg/slam = 1 big attack?
Is there some other good way to make his attacks more impressive using the 5 evolution points I have?
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3rd Level Half-Orc (20 point build)
STR 19 DEX 11 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 7 CHA 16
AC 14 (chain shirt)
Feats: Conjuration/Augment Summoning
Wielding: Great Axe (plan on taking weapon focus great axe next feat) this gives me +7 to hit with 1d12 + 4 dmg on a hit
Someone else already pointed out that your damage calculation is wrong. I feel like your set up is a little schizophrenic. You say you want to fight on the front line with your Eidlon but you burned your first two feats on non-combat feats. You also funneled a lot of points into Charisma at the cost of your AC and HP. This build looks like you're summoning focused and accidentally transposed some of your numbers.
Medium Biped Eidolon
STR 18 DEX 13 CON 13 INT 7 WIS 10 CHA 11
Evo Pool (5 points): Improved Armor, Improved Damage, Reach, Slam, Magic Attacks
AC 17, Attk: 2 slams (+8 hit) for 1d10+4 dmg each hit.
Someone else already pointed out that you only get a single slam attack. For right now, I think a single slam is better than two claws because you can get through DR more easily. But it does run you an extra point.
1) for the half orc summoner - should I go falchion or stick with great axe? does any other race work as well for a melee summoner standing in the front with his eidolon?
Falchion is, IIRC, the mathematically better weapon.
2) what summon monster works best at this point - I have generally just used my summon monster II ability to summon 1d3 riding dogs since they seem to be the most powerful unit at this time (free trip attacks). the summon monster II creatures did not impress me very much so I just pull out more of the 1st level version... good plan?
Bad news, the Summon Monster list was errata'd. Go here for the updated list. No more riding Dog, which is fair since it was way overpowered. At your level, a single Hyena for tripping or d3 Eagles for pure damage.
3) could the eidolon be built any better? im no expert at this but I wanted my guy to be big and strong and fight next to my big and strong soul-mate. I am also wondering if I did it correctly because I have seen other peoples builds that seem to do 2d8 dmg instead of 1d10 which is what I have on mine.
The ones that do 2d8 do so with the Improved Natural Attack feat from the Bestiary. Note that this feat is not legal for Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
4) any other advice?
Your AC is ridiculously bad. I think you focused too much on Strength and then didn't focus enough on combat with your feats. Lets look at my Summoner who was made with a pretty much identical idea of fighting alongside my Eidolon.
Gabriel Lorenz
Level 3 Human Summoner
STR 14 DEX 16 CON 13 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 15
AC 18 (chain shirt, 3 Dex, Dodge)
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Proficiency (Glaive), Arcane Strike
Wielding: MW Glaive +5 D10+4 (including Arcane Strike)
I went a bit overboard on AC since I'm in Organized Play and its a real pain if you die in PFS. If I were in a normal campaign I'd probably have switched Str and Dex and then do only 2 less damage than your build on average but I'd have 3 more AC. I also have a much better will save because I didn't dump.
Nighteyes
Quadruped Eidolon
STR 16 DEX 15 CON 13 INT 7 WIS 10 CHA 11
AC 19
Feats: Dodge, Step Up
Evolutions: Bite (f), Limbs (f), Claws x2, Trip, Improved Natural Armor, Pounce
Nighteyes is a pretty badass mofo. If all five attacks hit he does an average of 18.5 damage with a trip chance. Yours averages 11 damage with only one attack. Its great for getting past DR but not so great for all the regular schlubs you'll face. If you switched to claws you'd get 15 damage on average if both attacks hit or 7.5 per hit. Worth thinking about for sure.
Annother thing you might consider is a reach weapon. The summoner in my group used it quite effectively to be in melee. He also took armor proficiency feats to get medium armor for a boost in AC. Not sure if its a good call, but its interesting.
I agree with others that you should drop your str a little and boost the other physical stats. You don't need 18 to be effective, especially on a 20 point buy.
I went the direct I did because I wanted to maximize offense. I felt having the increased 5% chance to hit as well as 1.5 extra damage on each swing was worth giving up 1 or 2 points of AC since I did not plan on being a front line tank but more of a front line offensive monster.
I put his CHA at 16 because that is the key summoner stat and a 16 is all you would ever need to cast all summoner spells. I suppose I could lower it to like a 14 for now and use my final 2 stat points of his career to reach the minimum cap needed to cast all summoner spells but I was being lazy.
Oh and I chose my feats based on just wanting the augment summoning. Basically my standard combat style was to cast summon monster and then next round wade into battle.
This gave the other fighters in the group including my edilon time to run forward and become the "tanks" if you will. Then I wade in to battle with a freshly summoned pet probably in a flanking position.
I went the direct I did because I wanted to maximize offense. I felt having the increased 5% chance to hit as well as 1.5 extra damage on each swing was worth giving up 1 or 2 points of AC since I did not plan on being a front line tank but more of a front line offensive monster.
I put his CHA at 16 because that is the key summoner stat and a 16 is all you would ever need to cast all summoner spells. I suppose I could lower it to like a 14 for now and use my final 2 stat points of his career to reach the minimum cap needed to cast all summoner spells but I was being lazy.
Oh and I chose my feats based on just wanting the augment summoning. Basically my standard combat style was to cast summon monster and then next round wade into battle.
This gave the other fighters in the group including my edilon time to run forward and become the "tanks" if you will. Then I wade in to battle with a freshly summoned pet probably in a flanking position.
If this is your idea, I would highly recommend looking at reach weapons.
I guess the reason I did not go reach is because of lack of easy access to the skill to use them.
One of the reasons I went half-orc was the free high dmg weapons they get as a racial and I didn't want to spend a feat now (or later?) for a weapon skill. It might be a good idea, but that was my thinking is what im explaining about it.
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I guess the reason I did not go reach is because of lack of easy access to the skill to use them.
One of the reasons I went half-orc was the free high dmg weapons they get as a racial and I didn't want to spend a feat now (or later?) for a weapon skill. It might be a good idea, but that was my thinking is what im explaining about it.
Well, Summoners are proficient with Long Spears. It might be worth it to have one for the occasions when its useful.
I definitely understand the desire for Augment Summoning. Its a great feat. However, you had to get Spell Focus (Conjuration) which approaches uselessness for Summoners because few spells on their list have a DC. You also lose out on combat ability which is, as I understand it, the point of the Summoner. I think you can only do one really well, combat or summoning. Without investing feats in your combat ability you will always be wildly sub-par to Fighters, Rogues, Clerics, and your Eidolon.
I guess the reason I did not go reach is because of lack of easy access to the skill to use them.
One of the reasons I went half-orc was the free high dmg weapons they get as a racial and I didn't want to spend a feat now (or later?) for a weapon skill. It might be a good idea, but that was my thinking is what im explaining about it.
Well, Summoners are proficient with Long Spears. It might be worth it to have one for the occasions when its useful.
I definitely understand the desire for Augment Summoning. Its a great feat. However, you had to get Spell Focus (Conjuration) which approaches uselessness for Summoners because few spells on their list have a DC. You also lose out on combat ability which is, as I understand it, the point of the Summoner. I think you can only do one really well, combat or summoning. Without investing feats in your combat ability you will always be wildly sub-par to Fighters, Rogues, Clerics, and your Eidolon.
That makes me think that Augmented Summoning should be a free feat for Summoners at like lvl 3, where they don't need to meet the prerequs. Its not so powerful to be game breaking, but is it powerful enough to warrent 2 feats?
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That makes me think that Augmented Summoning should be a free feat for Summoners at like lvl 3, where they don't need to meet the prerequs. Its not so powerful to be game breaking, but is it powerful enough to warrent 2 feats?
I think its a worthwhile pair of feats for a Summoner who will focus on Summoning, just not one that will focus on melee.
It isn't that great of a feat, though. The returns are fairly sharply diminishing in the latter half of a Summoner or Conjurer's levels. I think that the Summoner is already a top tier class without giving it a further bonus. Giving Augment as a bonus feat would probably necessitate losing some of the SLA's per day.
I felt the summoning ability was powerful enough to merit having augment summoning.
You summon up free flankers/attackers and potential targets for your enemies in every battle. Each has +10% chance to hit, +2 dmg, and more HP. To me it seemed like a good deal for a melee guy who wades into combat with his melee army.
I do like a lot of the suggestions you guys are giving me by the way so I do appreciate it. I plan on making modifications to my character today for the game I play in tomorrow.
Ok, for my Eidolon I went with a rogue type guy with 4 arms from the outside realm (Far Realm):
Basically im using this mini to represent him:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/leg_evil_gallery/foulspawn_mangler.jpg
I think I made him correctly stat wise using many of the suggestions you guys gave me:
Summoned Creature: Eidolon
CN Medium Biped Eidolon Outsider
Init +2; Senses: dark vision 60 ft.; Perception +4
DEFENSES
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+1 Dex, +4 natural, +2 improved armor, +1 Dodge feat)
hp 35 (4d10+4)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +4
OFFENSE
Speed 30ft.
Melee 4 claws +10 (1d6+5)
STATISTICS
Str 20, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +4; CMB +9; CMD 20
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Focus (Claw)
Skills: Disguise +4 (4 ranks), Disable Device+5 (4 ranks), Perception +4 (4 ranks), Stealth +5 (4 ranks)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Dark vision, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Ability Score Increase (used for STR +1), +1 STR/DEX bonus from levels
Free Evolutions: Claws, Limbs (arms), Limbs (legs)
Evolution Pool: (7 points) – Improved Armor +2 (1), Improved Damage +1 die size (1), Limbs (arms) (2), Claws (1), Ability Increase +2 STR (2)
For my half-orc summoner I went with these starting stats (we are now level 4):
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Focus (Great Axe)
Traits: We are playing a Pathfinder Adventure Path so I have 2 traits that give me additional skills those being Bluff & Diplomacy for obvious reasons.
Weapons: going to carry a Great Axe and a Long Spear for when I can use each to most effect.
Armor: Chain shirt since summoners can still wear this - im guessing the guy building this has a definite picture in his mind of the summoner as a melee-ish guy since they can wear light armor for some reason.
Thoughts and any more suggestions?
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For traits you might want to think about Dirty Fighting (or at least thats what I think its called). It gives you an additional damage when you flank which is ridiculously easy when you have summons and an Eidolon.
Everything else looks solid. The improved AC for the Summoner is really going to pay off, I think. You have a feat coming up at lvl 5. You may want to think about Medium Armor Proficiency if you can save up the cash for a mithril breastplate (7350gp I believe). Alternatively, Arcane Strike is a great feat for a melee Summoner. The bonus is untyped and scales with level pretty well.
Does Arcane Strike stack with magic weapons? I didn't take it because I assumed it did not stack on top of an actual magic weapon which I am hoping to get eventually.
Also, I was considering using my next ediolon evolution for increased skill in perception (gives it +8 racial bonus) because my perception is terrible.
My group doesn't have a real thief so I figured I would try and give him some skills to help us out.
One of the few things I dislike about the summoner is the awesome lack of skill points and useful skills - the guy basically has no stat bonuses for any skills that would help the group (no INT for knowledge, no WIS for perception). Basically the only useful CHA skills he doesn't even get as class skills.
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The bonus from Arcane Strike is untyped so it stacks with everything.
The bonus for Perception is a good idea, something I also ought to think about. Right now, the Eidolon handles a lot of my skill needs. I'm pumping points into Perception and Disable Device for him as well as a few for Knowledge (Planes), Climb, and Stealth. I used the ability to pick a few extra Class Skills for the Eidolon to give bonuses to make up for the low mental stats. Although the Summoner's lack of skill points is distressing (one of the reasons I picked human over half-orc was the extra skill point), between the Summoner and Eidolon, at worst the two get 6 skills per level and have a fairly extensive list of class skills.