This can't be right. or really cheap bracers of armor +8


Rules Questions


OK, according to the table on estimating custom magic items
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
The formula for a magic item that has a permanent continuous effect is;
((Spell level x caster level)x 2000gp)x condition

Condition is defined in the footnotes of the table. The condition is based on spell duration.

Let's say I want a pair of bracers that provide me with a continuous effect of Shield. Shield is a first level spell and can be cast by a first level caster. It's conditional multiplier is two. So the cost would be:
((1x1)x2000gp)x2=4,000 gp

I want to add Mage Armor to the bracers. It is likewise a first level spell and can be cast by a first level spellcaster. Since it has a longer duration, it looks like it's conditional multiplier is 1.5 Since it is being added to the same magic item as the Shield spell and that takes up a "body slot", I have to multiply by a further 1.5.
(((1x1)x2000gp)x 1.5)x 1.5=4,500gp

So you can spend 64,000gp on +8 Bracers of Armor, or go this route. It'll only set you back 8,500gp and you get immunity to Magic Missile spells to boot.

Now I know I must be wrong somewhere. I know I would not allow it as a GM, or ask for it as a player because it's obviously broken even if the rules allow it. But please point out to me just where I'm wrong, 'cause I don't see it! (And be gentle, I'm a noob)

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Dire Hobbit wrote:

OK, according to the table on estimating custom magic items

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
The formula for a magic item that has a permanent continuous effect is;
((Spell level x caster level)x 2000gp)x condition

Condition is defined in the footnotes of the table. The condition is based on spell duration.

Let's say I want a pair of bracers that provide me with a continuous effect of Shield. Shield is a first level spell and can be cast by a first level caster. It's conditional multiplier is two. So the cost would be:
((1x1)x2000gp)x2=4,000 gp

I want to add Mage Armor to the bracers. It is likewise a first level spell and can be cast by a first level spellcaster. Since it has a longer duration, it looks like it's conditional multiplier is 1.5 Since it is being added to the same magic item as the Shield spell and that takes up a "body slot", I have to multiply by a further 1.5.
(((1x1)x2000gp)x 1.5)x 1.5=4,500gp

So you can spend 64,000gp on +8 Bracers of Armor, or go this route. It'll only set you back 8,500gp and you get immunity to Magic Missile spells to boot.

Now I know I must be wrong somewhere. I know I would not allow it as a GM, or ask for it as a player because it's obviously broken even if the rules allow it. But please point out to me just where I'm wrong, 'cause I don't see it! (And be gentle, I'm a noob)

Everything you've said is technically true, but that table is really only meant as a guideline, not as a precise formula. If you're creating something that mimics the abilities of a preexisting item, you should really be using that item to estimate the price.


Calixymenthillian wrote:


Everything you've said is technically true, but that table is really only meant as a guideline, not as a precise formula. If you're creating something that mimics the abilities of a preexisting item, you should really be using that item to estimate the price.

I AGREE!! :-)

Still there are some players that will not always listen to sense. (and I am looking in the mirror here) Is there some argument against this fiasco of a loophole?

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Dire Hobbit wrote:

I AGREE!! :-)

Still there are some players that will not always listen to sense. (and I am looking in the mirror here) Is there some argument against this fiasco of a loophole?

Yep, here you go:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Reference Document wrote:

Magic Item Gold Piece Values

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

Edit: that, or just hit the offending player over the head with the core rulebook ;)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

However, you're really just getting a permanent AC bonus which is already covered in the effects section. The continuous spell is for things that don't provide static bonuses to counter this tendency.

A +4 Armour bonus is worth about 16000. I'd either treat the shield bonus as a separate AC other bonus (costing 40000), or add it on to the armour bonus which would make it cost 640000 in total). Probably the latter. Then I'd add on the bonus for Shield, and look at the Brooch of Shielding as a guide. Either way, it's going to cost a LOT more than the player thinks. If something adds a bonus, price it for the bonus, it will be more expensive than by spell.


Paul Watson wrote:

However, you're really just getting a permanent AC bonus which is already covered in the effects section. The continuous spell is for things that don't provide static bonuses to counter this tendency.

A +4 Armour bonus is worth about 16000. I'd either treat the shield bonus as a separate AC other bonus (costing 40000), or add it on to the armour bonus which would make it cost 640000 in total). Probably the latter. Then I'd add on the bonus for Shield, and look at the Brooch of Shielding as a guide. Either way, it's going to cost a LOT more than the player thinks. If something adds a bonus, price it for the bonus, it will be more expensive than by spell.

But doesn't this point out that the gp values for spell-casting items is undervalued to their effect?


If pricing on a custom magic seems out of whack then don't allow it. Custom magic items are 60% house rule and 40% pricing guidelines.

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Someone brought up just making an item that gives you +1 deflection, +1 insight, +1 natural armor, +1 sacred, and +1 luck. For what like 17,000gp? Instead of +5 deflection (or whatever) for 50,000


That's more like 32,000 gp. Non-standard armour bonuses are generally 6x the square, rather than just double.

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Arakhor wrote:
That's more like 32,000 gp. Non-standard armour bonuses are generally 6x the square, rather than just double.

Not according to the Magic Item Creation guideline table they aren't. So not really sure where you got that info from.

Quote:

AC bonus (other)1 Bonus squared x 2,500 gp

1 Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

An often overlooked final step in pricing magic items is to compare the new item's price (usually arrived at by following the formulas) to existing items that have similar effects, and to adjust the new item's price as appropriate.


One thing i think people are overlooking as well, is the actual affect of the items created.

in the first example you have a total of +8 to AC (+4 from shield and +4 from mage armor) but there is a draw back to having this item over +8 bracers of armor and possibly a reason to combine them: The type on the bonus is very relivant in the end picture.

for example, the shield/mage armor item give +4 shield bonus and +4 armor bonus. a pair of bracers of armor provide up to a +8 armor bonus. The difference here, is if you had both items on, you would have only +12 to your AC because the +4 from the Mage Armor spell would be overshadowed by your bracer's +8 bonus (of the same type). This will make your shield/mage armor item just a bit less cool.

in another example Scipion del Ferro brought up:

"Someone brought up just making an item that gives you +1 deflection, +1 insight, +1 natural armor, +1 sacred, and +1 luck. For what like 17,000gp? Instead of +5 deflection (or whatever) for 50,000"

you have an item that sure seems overpowered, except that most of those bonuses are going to be overlapping with other magic items you are likely to already have, or find (and with better bonuses) making it so you keep getting lesser returns for a slot over time. Deflection is a ring, insight could be any number of things, NA bonus from barkskin the spell itself is better or from an ammulet of NA (that will have a much higher bonus), Sacred is a bit more rare, and luck from an Ioun stone is pretty standard. all that will really net you, in the end, the sacred bonus of +1 to AC for 50,000GP. to me, that seems pretty crappy of a price, but if my players wanted to drop their money on something like this, i wouldn't have a problem. it would be even more fun watching them trying to sell it to an NPC that knows ~anything~ about magic items and have the NPC turn up their nose at it making the players sell it back at a price that would AT MOST make them break even.

All in all, combining bonuses like this can be affective at lower levels, but even by the mid levels, the items will be hugely overshadowed by something they are likely to find or buy outright.

on another page, going back to the original example of the +4/+4 Shield/Mage Armor example, something people forget is that the +8 from Bracers of Armor DOES NOT NEED TO BE BONUS(ES) TO AC. Read the description of them again, you can have each +1 directed towards a bonus that would be present on a set of armor itself. This means its possible to mix the two items for maximum result giving you something like:

+4/+4 AC from Shield/Mage Armor item
+5 bonus: Fortification (Heavy)/+3 Bonus: Spell Resistance (+8 Bracers of Armor)

Combining them in this way will be a bit more affective, but again, will not be the best idea overall


The long and the short of it is, if you think you've come up with a way to get the same effect for a lower price, you're wrong. A +4 deflection bonus has a set price. It doesn't matter how you get there, an item that grants a +4 deflection bonus cost that same as every other item that grants a +4 deflection bonus.

And before anyone asks, no, you can't have a use activated or continuous true strike weapon, not for less than a million gp, anyway, no matter what the formulae say.

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Please, True Strike would be a Command Word item, or charges per day.

It's 50,000gp for an item that gives a +5 deflection bonus, btw. 17,000gp for the one that gives lots of different stuff, and it does have the downside of having different bonuses which wouldn't stack, but then again if you have access to crafting such an item you'll probably have the ability to just get it's bonuses boosted when you find the cash for it.


James Jacobs wrote:
An often overlooked final step in pricing magic items is to compare the new item's price (usually arrived at by following the formulas) to existing items that have similar effects, and to adjust the new item's price as appropriate.

OK, let's look at another example.

I want to imbue a bunch of arrows with Ray of Exhaustion. That's a third level spell, can be cast by a fifth level wizard, so making it a single use-use activated item should cost:
(3x5)x50gp=750gp.
That's way more expensive than a Sleep Arrow at 132gp. So my player with a fighter character thinks it's appropriately priced.

Does a player with a barbarian? Heck no. If he gets hit by that thing he looses the better half of his abilities, that's if he makes his save and is only fatigued. Why? Fatigued barbarians can't go into a rage, so they loose all their rage abilities. If he's misses his save it gets REALLY bad!

Arrows imbued with Touch of Idiocy are just 300gp. You can really raise heck with spellcasters and you don't have to get close to them to use the touch spell.

My point is, I think the costs for spell casting magic items is seriously undervalued.


Those are one use items. How expensive do you want them to be?

Especially considering you can get a wand that does the same thing and get 50 charges.

Personally, I like my players to have access to items like that. It gives them more tactical flexibility, which encourages them to give what they're doing more thought, which also serves to keep them more "in the moment."

Besides, you could give them a dozen of those items and they'd hold on to them forever, trying to make sure they use them "in just the right spot."


Dire Hobbit wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
An often overlooked final step in pricing magic items is to compare the new item's price (usually arrived at by following the formulas) to existing items that have similar effects, and to adjust the new item's price as appropriate.

OK, let's look at another example.

I want to imbue a bunch of arrows with Ray of Exhaustion. That's a third level spell, can be cast by a fifth level wizard, so making it a single use-use activated item should cost:
(3x5)x50gp=750gp.
That's way more expensive than a Sleep Arrow at 132gp. So my player with a fighter character thinks it's appropriately priced.

Does a player with a barbarian? Heck no. If he gets hit by that thing he looses the better half of his abilities, that's if he makes his save and is only fatigued. Why? Fatigued barbarians can't go into a rage, so they loose all their rage abilities. If he's misses his save it gets REALLY bad!

Arrows imbued with Touch of Idiocy are just 300gp. You can really raise heck with spellcasters and you don't have to get close to them to use the touch spell.

My point is, I think the costs for spell casting magic items is seriously undervalued.

Would not these arrows Require Craft Arms and Armor feat?

Dont they have to be masterworks arrows?
Dont they have to have +1 enchantment bonues required first?
Dont you then add in the spell effect?
Dont you have to do this for each Arror?

The (3x5)x50 formula you have listed above give the example "potion of cure light wounds". While this is fine if you want to make a potion, and drink it to have to spell effect. I do not think it would work on arrows or weapons. This would require the Arms and Armor feat which has other limitation listed in it.


Um, I'm not really sure if I was the only person to see this, but OPs math seems flawed, as to create anything like what was mentioned in the original post, Craft Wondrous Item would be needed, either that or, Craft magic Arms or Armour, Forge Ring, Etc.

This would mean that the price to create that itme in particular would now be:
Shield:
((1x3)x2000gp)x2=12,000 gp

and

(((1x3)x2000gp)x 1.5)x 1.5=13,500 gp

this makes it a grand total of 25,500 gp.

If this were my game, which it obviously isn't, I'm just adding my 2 cents, I would rule that this would be the creation cost for such an item, not the buy price.

But as I said, so I can clarify that I am not arguement baiting, that ths isn't my game, so please ignore my house ruling if it seems wrong to you.


I really wish they gave more examples of how all those bonus on that chart were used :)

Not sure if this is correct but this is how i read the rules:
Ray of Exhaustion + Arrow

Craft Arms and Armor Feat
1) Magic arrows require a +1 weapons bonus: (1x1x2000) = 2000gp
2) Ray of Exhaustion spell 3 level cast by 5th level wizard: (3x5)x50 = 750gp
3) Multiple Different Ability = Does not take up a body space so 2000gp+750gp= 2750 gp.
4) Specal(Charge per Day) = (5 divided by charge per day"1")=5 divided by item. So (2750gp divided by 5) = 550gp
5) Amunnition is 6gp per each for masterwork quaity: 550gp + 6gp = 556gp

So 556gp for each +1 Arrow of Exhastion.
Note: Rule number 4 is used because this is amunnition and as such can only be used once.

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Oliver McShade wrote:

I really wish they gave more examples of how all those bonus on that chart were used :)

Not sure if this is correct but this is how i read the rules:
Ray of Exhaustion + Arrow

Craft Arms and Armor Feat
1) Magic arrows require a +1 weapons bonus: (1x1x2000) = 2000gp
2) Ray of Exhaustion spell 3 level cast by 5th level wizard: (3x5)x50 = 750gp
3) Multiple Different Ability = Does not take up a body space so 2000gp+750gp= 2750 gp.
4) Specal(Charge per Day) = (5 divided by charge per day"1")=5 divided by item. So (2750gp divided by 5) = 550gp
5) Amunnition is 6gp per each for masterwork quaity: 550gp + 6gp = 556gp

So 556gp for each +1 Arrow of Exhastion.
Note: Rule number 4 is used because this is amunnition and as such can only be used once.

But you've already accounted for the single-use in step 2, otherwise that step would be 3x5x1,800 = 27,000


Oliver McShade wrote:

I really wish they gave more examples of how all those bonus on that chart were used :)

Not sure if this is correct but this is how i read the rules:
Ray of Exhaustion + Arrow

Craft Arms and Armor Feat
1) Magic arrows require a +1 weapons bonus: (1x1x2000) = 2000gp
2) Ray of Exhaustion spell 3 level cast by 5th level wizard: (3x5)x50 = 750gp
3) Multiple Different Ability = Does not take up a body space so 2000gp+750gp= 2750 gp.
4) Specal(Charge per Day) = (5 divided by charge per day"1")=5 divided by item. So (2750gp divided by 5) = 550gp
5) Amunnition is 6gp per each for masterwork quaity: 550gp + 6gp = 556gp

So 556gp for each +1 Arrow of Exhastion.
Note: Rule number 4 is used because this is amunnition and as such can only be used once.

1) that's for 50 arrows. So 40gp apiece.

2) That seems right.
3) I don't think being a +1 weapon counts for "multiple abilities", since they all have to be +1. I think that's more for like ability bonuses and the like. I don't think "doesn't take up a body space" is relevant either, as it's a weapon and they normally don't count for that. You have to use your hand and such to use it.
4) It's already priced as a single-use item, there's no need for this.
5) This is correct.

So, when those are removed, I think it should be something like this:
6 gp - Masterwork arrow
40 gp - +1 arrow (2000 gp for 50, that's 40 gp each)
750 gp - Use-activated spell 3rd level, 5th level caster (3*5*50=750)
for a total of 796 gp.

However, it should be said that it still requires you to hit and do damage, compared to a 750gp wand that just has to hit with a touch.
Sure, you need to be a caster class to use it - but you have to be a combat class to successfully use this.

A sleep arrow (132 gp) however, would then have the price:
6 gp masterwork
40 gp +1
50 gp use activated 1st-level spell
so that doesn't seem to be exactly right either. I don't think the change from lethal to non-lethal damage is worth much, and certainly not about 1/3 of it's bonus.
However, this could be just another example of that custom spell items are underpriced compared to existing items.


But you've already accounted for the single-use in step 2, otherwise that step would be 3x5x1,800 = 27,000

I dont see were your getting 1,800 number from unless your using the listing for command word.

The Arrow is ammunition and is not attavated by command word but is a Single use, use-activated "" when fired from a bow "".

??


That was 556 gp per arrow

for 50 arrows that would cost = 27800 gp

You would proble be better off making a magic bow than making magic ammunition. In the long run the magic bow would be cheapper.

(( yes if you want to cast the spell, then wands would be a cheaper way to go. ))

Melee weapons, Range weapons, and armour just cost more because they are usally more permanent. (( magic ammunition is not that common, because it is costly)). At least from what i have seen over D&D1,2,3 etc.

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Oliver McShade wrote:


I dont see were your getting 1,800 number from unless your using the listing for command word.

The Arrow is ammunition and is not attavated by command word but is a Single use, use-activated "" when fired from a bow "".

??

true, it probably would be 2,000 rather than 1,800.

All in all, I'd say that 750gp is around a fair price for a one-shot 3rd level spell. (Just under half the cost of a type I necklace of fireballs, and the increased range is probably balanced by the fact it's no longer a touch attack. If it where with a spell with a range of only touch, I'd be tempted to treat it as a spell one level higher.)


Dire Hobbit wrote:


So you can spend 64,000gp on +8 Bracers of Armor, or go this route.

Well one thing it does illustrate is how overpriced bracers of armor are.

Consider that +8 bracers of armor cost as much as it does to have a wizard enchant a suit of armor to +8 equivalence and that it has no base AC bonus and that should do that.

Most non-armor wearers rely upon mage armor/greater mage armor because of this disparity in price.

If you want to go a formulaic route I would suggest house ruling around a free +1 to +2 bonus for bracers of armor. A permanent mage armor seems reasonable at around 4k-6k.

-James
PS: In your formula you are using caster level 1, but bracers of armor have a higher caster level associated with them. Likewise in the case of the shield spell there should be an increase for permanent spell effects based upon personal only spells (if they should even be allowed).

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Ekeebe wrote:

Um, I'm not really sure if I was the only person to see this, but OPs math seems flawed, as to create anything like what was mentioned in the original post, Craft Wondrous Item would be needed, either that or, Craft magic Arms or Armour, Forge Ring, Etc.

This would mean that the price to create that itme in particular would now be:
Shield:
((1x3)x2000gp)x2=12,000 gp

and

(((1x3)x2000gp)x 1.5)x 1.5=13,500 gp

this makes it a grand total of 25,500 gp.

If this were my game, which it obviously isn't, I'm just adding my 2 cents, I would rule that this would be the creation cost for such an item, not the buy price.

But as I said, so I can clarify that I am not arguement baiting, that ths isn't my game, so please ignore my house ruling if it seems wrong to you.

It's spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 2,000 x duration (2) = 4,000gp

You can make the caster level anything you want so long as it's high enough for the highest spell being used. It's variable so you can like make a wand of fireball at a 10th caster level instead of the minimum of 5th.

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james maissen wrote:
Dire Hobbit wrote:


So you can spend 64,000gp on +8 Bracers of Armor, or go this route.

Well one thing it does illustrate is how overpriced bracers of armor are.

Consider that +8 bracers of armor cost as much as it does to have a wizard enchant a suit of armor to +8 equivalence and that it has no base AC bonus and that should do that.

Most non-armor wearers rely upon mage armor/greater mage armor because of this disparity in price.

If you want to go a formulaic route I would suggest house ruling around a free +1 to +2 bonus for bracers of armor. A permanent mage armor seems reasonable at around 4k-6k.

-James
PS: In your formula you are using caster level 1, but bracers of armor have a higher caster level associated with them. Likewise in the case of the shield spell there should be an increase for permanent spell effects based upon personal only spells (if they should even be allowed).

They are the same price because it's the same bonus being added to an item which doesn't need an armor proficiency to wear. Perfect for monks or casters who don't have access to Mage Armor.

An item of permanent mage armor should cost 32,000gp as it is exactly comparable with an item giving a +4 armor bonus, because that's what it's doing.

For adding enhancement bonuses to items and armor you don't have to multiply it by the caster level. That's only if there's a spell involved. Your caster level does need to be 3 x the bonus though.


Scipion del Ferro wrote:
An item of permanent mage armor should cost 32,000gp as it is exactly comparable with an item giving a +4 armor bonus, because that's what it's doing.

Not quite. Among other things, a permanent spell is vulnerable to dispel magic, and takes an action to cast. Bracers of armor are "vulnerable" to dispel magic in that it can suppress them for 1d4 rounds, but not permanently and it takes no action to re-activate them.


Dire Hobbit wrote:

OK, according to the table on estimating custom magic items

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
The formula for a magic item that has a permanent continuous effect is;
((Spell level x caster level)x 2000gp)x condition

Condition is defined in the footnotes of the table. The condition is based on spell duration.

Let's say I want a pair of bracers that provide me with a continuous effect of Shield. Shield is a first level spell and can be cast by a first level caster. It's conditional multiplier is two. So the cost would be:
((1x1)x2000gp)x2=4,000 gp

I want to add Mage Armor to the bracers. It is likewise a first level spell and can be cast by a first level spellcaster. Since it has a longer duration, it looks like it's conditional multiplier is 1.5 Since it is being added to the same magic item as the Shield spell and that takes up a "body slot", I have to multiply by a further 1.5.
(((1x1)x2000gp)x 1.5)x 1.5=4,500gp

So you can spend 64,000gp on +8 Bracers of Armor, or go this route. It'll only set you back 8,500gp and you get immunity to Magic Missile spells to boot.

Now I know I must be wrong somewhere. I know I would not allow it as a GM, or ask for it as a player because it's obviously broken even if the rules allow it. But please point out to me just where I'm wrong, 'cause I don't see it! (And be gentle, I'm a noob)

I am new to PF, but the 3.5 armor stacking rules are still in effect correct?

If so, Mage armor is an armor bonus and will not stack with any other armor bonus. Shield is a shield bonus and will not stack with any shield bonus. So yes, you get +8 armor on the cheap but it will not stack with armor or shields.

The bracers of armor +8 ARE better because you could still get a shield spell on top of them for another +4.

Now I would argue that you should use the rules for bracers of armor +4 over the mage armor bracers because the effects are identical. +4 armor and +4 shield bracers should run around 40k gold. Cheaper than +8 bracers, but at the cost of stacking.

Sure I can get a ring of +1 armor/deflection/shield/natural armor for a total of +4 armor cheaper than a +4 ring of deflection, but if I later get my hands on a +2 amulet of natural armor, I only get a +1 bonus from it.


Zurai wrote:
Scipion del Ferro wrote:
An item of permanent mage armor should cost 32,000gp as it is exactly comparable with an item giving a +4 armor bonus, because that's what it's doing.
Not quite. Among other things, a permanent spell is vulnerable to dispel magic, and takes an action to cast. Bracers of armor are "vulnerable" to dispel magic in that it can suppress them for 1d4 rounds, but not permanently and it takes no action to re-activate them.

Good point, caster level 1 would be very easy to dispel.

Also, to dispel the effect of a magic item you need to cast DM on the item. To dispel an effect, you dispel the creature(which has a chance to dispel all effects on the creature)

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See I argued the same thing in my thread about making a Bracer of Shield that gave you the shield spell. That it's decidedly different from actually having a +4 shield enhancement on an item, because it could be dispelled as well as it's effect on magic missile. It really comes down to your GM because these are guidelines.

The guideline says to compare it to a similar item, like Jason said. If you can convince your GM it's different enough to warrant costing 1/8th the price more power to you.


Charender wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Scipion del Ferro wrote:
An item of permanent mage armor should cost 32,000gp as it is exactly comparable with an item giving a +4 armor bonus, because that's what it's doing.
Not quite. Among other things, a permanent spell is vulnerable to dispel magic, and takes an action to cast. Bracers of armor are "vulnerable" to dispel magic in that it can suppress them for 1d4 rounds, but not permanently and it takes no action to re-activate them.

Good point, caster level 1 would be very easy to dispel.

Also, to dispel the effect of a magic item you need to cast DM on the item. To dispel an effect, you dispel the creature(which has a chance to dispel all effects on the creature)

Incorrect: It has a chance to dispel one effect on the creature, and checks from highest spell level to the lowest until it succeeds.

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