Some changes to the Alchemist.


Round 3: Alchemist and Inquisitor


When I first found out that Paizo was putting out a Alchemist class I rejoiced, but when I finally sat down and read it I almost made a somersault! Not only is it fun as heck to use, it is also very similar, almost identical to the Alchemist class I made a few years back (Not that I'm fishing for credit, mind you :p).

Here are some of the things I wanted to add to the discussion.

BAB: Good as it is.

Saves: Hardy fortitude is paramount when you taste everything and the good reflexes are no doubt a result of having to dive for cover every time something goes awry in the lab. Perfect.

Discoveries:

Here is one thing that I must address. If you pick infusion as your first choice your group will love you. If you don't, they will absolutely hate you and call you a hog. Seriously, imagine if you will how your entire party is half dead and you're standing right next to them quaffing potion after potion...

As a result every alchemist in a group is going to want to make infusion their first pick. That is why I would prefer if the Alchemist got a discovery at first level, one more at the 2nd level and a new one more at every even level.

I realize that it may look like a lot, but if you remove the poison abilities and the mutagen abilities and have them available as discoveries instead it would work well. Someone else mentioned this in another thread and I agree completely, as it frees up players from ending up with abilities that they don't want to use. More on that later.

If this change were to take place some of the discoveries prerequisites would have to be changed according so that alchemists won't be using inferno bombs at level 4!

Bombs: Apart from that I don't know the official range of the bombs and that it takes a move action AND a standard action to attack with it and that you need to use them in the same round. Otherwise I love it to death. Splash damage is a problem, but there are ways around that.

Mutagen: I have always had the idea that an Alchemist would experiment on his own body just for the heck of it so he could see the results. I say the Mutagen is a great idea. I do feel that it's a bit lackluster in it's current state though. I would suggest to keep the 2 level 2 ability as it is whilst giving the Alchemist list of Special qualities that he can access.
Let them have a point cost and give the Alchemist a pool of these points. This way he could choose if he'd want to have several lesser qualities or a few more powerful ones.
Discoveries could be used to unlock more interesting qualities and/or add points to the mutagen pool.

I feel that there is still a bit to add here. I'll get back to you guys when I have it figured out.

Shadow Lodge

The Fool wrote:
Bombs: Apart from that I don't know the official range of the bombs and that it takes a move action AND a standard action to attack with it and that you need to use them in the same round. Otherwise I love it to death. Splash damage is a problem, but there are ways around that.

Please explain why splash damage is a problem.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
The Fool wrote:
Bombs: Apart from that I don't know the official range of the bombs and that it takes a move action AND a standard action to attack with it and that you need to use them in the same round. Otherwise I love it to death. Splash damage is a problem, but there are ways around that.
Please explain why splash damage is a problem.

Splash damage is a problem because you will have allies in melee combat, and it's generally not a good idea to damage your allies, and splash damage makes it difficult not to.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
The Fool wrote:
Bombs: Apart from that I don't know the official range of the bombs and that it takes a move action AND a standard action to attack with it and that you need to use them in the same round. Otherwise I love it to death. Splash damage is a problem, but there are ways around that.
Please explain why splash damage is a problem.

Right, I missed that.

It's a problem for Alchemist since he is quite likely to injure his allies. The Shape splash feat fixes this, but It's not an official feat for pathfinder as far as I know.

Shadow Lodge

MaverickWolf wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
The Fool wrote:
Bombs: Apart from that I don't know the official range of the bombs and that it takes a move action AND a standard action to attack with it and that you need to use them in the same round. Otherwise I love it to death. Splash damage is a problem, but there are ways around that.
Please explain why splash damage is a problem.
Splash damage is a problem because you will have allies in melee combat, and it's generally not a good idea to damage your allies, and splash damage makes it difficult not to.

So does fireball, ice storm, heck even color spray. I see no problem no difference between "Please Mr. Wizard, cast fireball!" and "Please Mr. Alchemist, throw a bomb!" Except range of course.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
MaverickWolf wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
The Fool wrote:
Bombs: Apart from that I don't know the official range of the bombs and that it takes a move action AND a standard action to attack with it and that you need to use them in the same round. Otherwise I love it to death. Splash damage is a problem, but there are ways around that.
Please explain why splash damage is a problem.
Splash damage is a problem because you will have allies in melee combat, and it's generally not a good idea to damage your allies, and splash damage makes it difficult not to.
So does fireball, ice storm, heck even color spray. I see no problem no difference between "Please Mr. Wizard, cast fireball!" and "Please Mr. Alchemist, throw a bomb!" Except range of course.

The fact that a bomb is a splash weapon makes it hard to use that way. Also, unlike the spells you quoted the bomb only deals full damage on a direct hit.

Shadow Lodge

Stand back and don't use your bombs. Ever. See how long it takes for your group to beg you to throw one even though they'd get hit by the splash damage.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Stand back and don't use your bombs. Ever. See how long it takes for your group to beg you to throw one even though they'd get hit by the splash damage.

Hey I throw bombs whenever I like, allies be damned. It's their whining I can't stand. :D

Also, I totally killed our Rouge once...

Shadow Lodge

The Fool wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Stand back and don't use your bombs. Ever. See how long it takes for your group to beg you to throw one even though they'd get hit by the splash damage.

Hey I throw bombs whenever I like, allies be damned. It's their whining I can't stand. :D

Also, I totally killed our Rouge once...

No you didn't he/she was trying to steal the bomb you threw. Not you fault.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
The Fool wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Stand back and don't use your bombs. Ever. See how long it takes for your group to beg you to throw one even though they'd get hit by the splash damage.

Hey I throw bombs whenever I like, allies be damned. It's their whining I can't stand. :D

Also, I totally killed our Rouge once...

No you didn't he/she was trying to steal the bomb you threw. Not you fault.

You know, that sounds like something she would do! :o

Grand Lodge

I would have to say the Alchemist is falling a little flat. Its my favorite class idea, I really like the ideah of an alchemist. It would be cool if you could choose to go down a Mutagens path, a Bomb path, an Extract path, or even a Poison path. But in our playtest I was the only character that felt useless or heavily overshadowed by everyone elses ability, this has a funny but sad story to go with it.

We were fighting Orcs and I had ran out of extracts (lv 3 Alchemist at the time) and the group said, "I know you don't want to be usin your potions lad and seeing your inner demons, but boy take that mutagen and give those monsters hell!" The Dwarf said as he knew how I was roleplaying the alchemist and I had not used the Mutagen yet. So I take it and the GM describes the affects and has me explain a little of the transformation. Once the party found out what it gave me, it was nothing but face palms and the palyer with the dwarf falling out of his chair laughing, "THATS IT! HAHAHAHAHAH..." and the sorceress going, "and you lose charisma, wow you should have just rolled a Barbarian." Talk about not really making a difference. Then after running out of bombs way to early in the day, I became nothing more than a poorly charismaed dagger thrower with performance anxiety.

So we all as group decided to comeback with Alchemist builds a week later and the party as a whole decided to scrap the alchemist till they fix it and had me roll a barbarian which certainly got me props when I raged. This is just our experience but we all want to see the Alchemist evolved and fixed. One suggested allow the Alchemist to become a customized monster as time progresses, the group liked that. Another suggested More bombs (while cackling I might add).

Keep up the good work and we have faith that you wont let us down.


Well...as someone who is going to be playing an Alchemist here shortly, things like this worry me a bit. The whole Mutagen thing, while I think it is an awesome idea, doesn't really fit with my concept for this Alchemist at all. Poison Use doesn't really either.

I think, even without having played it yet, would have to agree. Rearranging a few of those abilities so that they can be taken as discoveries and simply broadening the amount of discoveries given would go a long way to making the class more functional.

Heck, I haven't played him yet and the whole problem about the Infusion discovery already has me shaking my head.


I don't really have a problem with the splash part of the bomb damage as much as i do with the range, 10' increments. If i could throw it more than 10' away without taking bigger and bigger penalties it would work better in combat.

I still like the idea of using the evolution pool from the Eidolon (from the summoner) for the mutagens. drink a potion, gain an arm! ;)

I love the poison abilities, but they should be turned into discovery's and optional.


Yasha0006 wrote:

Well...as someone who is going to be playing an Alchemist here shortly, things like this worry me a bit. The whole Mutagen thing, while I think it is an awesome idea, doesn't really fit with my concept for this Alchemist at all. Poison Use doesn't really either.

I think, even without having played it yet, would have to agree. Rearranging a few of those abilities so that they can be taken as discoveries and simply broadening the amount of discoveries given would go a long way to making the class more functional.

Heck, I haven't played him yet and the whole problem about the Infusion discovery already has me shaking my head.

The mutagen looks fairly weak, but it saved my party's collective behinds when we ran into a hoard of skeletons at level 2. It combined with a shield extract buffed my ac from a measly 16 to a solid 23, allowing me to avoid almost all hits while bombing away at the opponents.

I would prefer that they change it though.

Although the lack of infusion at fist level seems horrible at first it does take some pressure off the groups designated healer, since you can heal and buff yourself.

Just relax and have fun and you'll do great.

Also bring a copy of the splash weapon rules from page 202 of the core rulebook.


Tetrasol wrote:
I would have to say the Alchemist is falling a little flat. Its my favorite class idea, I really like the ideah of an alchemist. It would be cool if you could choose to go down a Mutagens path, a Bomb path, an Extract path, or even a Poison path. But in our playtest I was the only character that felt useless or heavily overshadowed by everyone elses ability, this has a funny but sad story to go with it...

It's my favorite class idea too. And my favorite class too, I might add.

But While I agree that it would rock to able to choose to specilize in either poisons/extracts/mutagens/bombs I wouldn't want them to be locked into specializations the way wizards are.

It would be much, MUCH more fun to have all the discoveries open and available for all Alchemists, but that some of the high level ones require a few prerequisites.

I am much of a dabbler myself and while I like to use bombs A LOT I would still like to be able to gain poison immunity and some other kinds of discoveries. You never know what you might be wanting for your character until perhaps 10 levels in, so tying yourself down doesn't do it for me.

By the way, at lower levels the bombs rock IMHO. I haven't had any problems at all with killing the enemies we've met.


Eric Stipe wrote:

I don't really have a problem with the splash part of the bomb damage as much as i do with the range, 10' increments. If i could throw it more than 10' away without taking bigger and bigger penalties it would work better in combat.

I still like the idea of using the evolution pool from the Eidolon (from the summoner) for the mutagens. drink a potion, gain an arm! ;)

I love the poison abilities, but they should be turned into discovery's and optional.

Yes! That's exactly what I was trying to say! Thank you! :D


The Fool wrote:
Eric Stipe wrote:

I don't really have a problem with the splash part of the bomb damage as much as i do with the range, 10' increments. If i could throw it more than 10' away without taking bigger and bigger penalties it would work better in combat.

I still like the idea of using the evolution pool from the Eidolon (from the summoner) for the mutagens. drink a potion, gain an arm! ;)

I love the poison abilities, but they should be turned into discovery's and optional.

Yes! That's exactly what I was trying to say! Thank you! :D

I wish Paizo would go into further detail on poisons personally. Right now we house rule poisons if you want to make more potent or better poisons then what is in the book. Basically we have to find the ingredients, still spend the cash, but when making your own poison, for every 5 points over the craft (alchemy) DC you roll, the save DC of the poison goes up by one. So it is completely scaleable to make better poisons at higher levels. We also combine multiple doses into a single more potent dose that has a higher save DC also. So your basically paying for three doses of Drow poison, brewing it into one effective more concentrated dose.

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