Hand of the Apprentice - Universalist


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Do you have to have proficiency with the weapon to use it with this power?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

That's a pretty good question and the situation came up in the game I'm running. The party wizard just assumed he could whip a morning star around using his Hand of the Apprentice and started carrying one around hoping he would eventually find a greatsword for the same purpose. I ruled that he could do it but took the usual -4 non-proficient penalty to the attack since the hand was basically just mirroring his own martial ability. I haven't found anything that says the wizard has to be proficient with the weapon.


You can use any melee weapon with it. The power does not grant proficiency - the only changes (that matter) are (a) that melee weapon is used as if it were a thrown weapon with a fixed range, and (b) it uses the Wizard's INT bonus instead of DEX bonus on the attack roll.

On the other hand, if you are an evil bugger that uses true strike prior to using the hand, carry the biggest hunk of sharpened steel that won't put you over Light encumbrance and then whirling that puppy through the air to cleave the foe's skull in twain.

Or something. ^_^


I'd say yes, you still need to know that the pointy part goes to the other guy...(proficiency accounts for that) or take the penalty, of course.


I would say you took the -4.


Wow, four posters in a row that agree with each other. And now you can add my vote to make 5.

I also like the idea of throwing around a colossal sword-shaped item with true strike with this. I'd never allow it, but the thought amuses me.


LordGriffin wrote:

Wow, four posters in a row that agree with each other. And now you can add my vote to make 5.

I also like the idea of throwing around a colossal sword-shaped item with true strike with this. I'd never allow it, but the thought amuses me.

Why not, if I may ask? The bigger the weapon the greater the attack penalty, so odds are not favorable for a poor BAB-progression character to actually hit with that helicopter blade he's throwing.

But it'll sure be purty when it does. ^_^


Turin the Mad wrote:
Why not, if I may ask?

Now that I think about it, I don't think you get "penalties" for using a weapon that's too big. I think you just can't do it. That should probably apply to wizards as well.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I will rule out any weapons the wizard is physically incapable of wielding based upon pure breach of suspension of disbelief. A human wizard might be able pick up and awkwardly swing a frost giant's greatsword, but I'm not going to let him do the same thing with a titan's greatsword and his agro mage hand. Especially when you consider the Never Caught Off Guard-type feats.

Hatsy McPointyhat the Wizard: "Okay. So I use my Never Caught Off Guard ability and my Hand of the Apprentice to lift that grain silo and swing it at the kobold because, technically, that silo is an improvised melee weapon."

LordGriffin wrote:
Now that I think about it, I don't think you get "penalties" for using a weapon that's too big. I think you just can't do it.

A character can use a weapon one size category larger than their own size; it incurs a -4 penalty to the attack that stacks with any other penalties IIRC. Amiri, the iconic Pathfinder Barbarian, actually wields a frost giant's greatsword as an example.


Realizes that the discussion about using Hand of the Apprenticed-Acolyte with Really Big Machetes is moot.

There is of course the built-in weight limit of 5 pounds... oops. ^_^

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Turin the Mad wrote:
There is of course the built-in weight limit of 5 pounds... oops. ^_^

That can only be assumed because it isn't inferred in the RAW.

Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

It doesn't say, "This ability functions as per Mage Hand in regard to maximum weight allowance" anywhere in the description. All it says is "your melee weapon."


On that note, a silo would likely do about 6d6 damage, although you DO have to be able to "wield it as a melee weapon" first. Good luck with that.


Velcro Zipper wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
There is of course the built-in weight limit of 5 pounds... oops. ^_^

That can only be assumed because it isn't inferred in the RAW.

Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

It doesn't say, "This ability functions as per Mage Hand in regard to maximum weight allowance" anywhere in the description. All it says is "your melee weapon."

O.o ...

I was remembering the Beta wording.

However (Equipment section, page 144) covers this: "Inappropriately Sized Weapons: ... A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder." Tack on another -4 for being nonproficient.

So, presuming the mage can carry it, a Colossal weapon is used at a -8 attack penalty (-12 if nonproficient).

Now, this seems to be contradicted in the following paragraph: "If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all." This seems to be a bit of a bummer, as Amiri wouldn't be able to waltz around with her Large greatsword any more unless making it bigger simply keeps it as a Two-Handed Weapon...


Turin the Mad wrote:


Now, this seems to be contradicted in the following paragraph: "If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all." This seems to be a bit of a bummer, as Amiri wouldn't be able to waltz around with her Large greatsword any more...

It's a large bastard sword. Which is one handed for large, but as she has the feat counts as two handed for her

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

That's right. It is a bastard sword. I thought I'd read greatsword somewhere, but here's the story of how she got it. It actually works in a clever way to explain how her rage helps to compensate for the penalty to hit.


Seems a steep price to pay to go from dealing 2d6 to 2d8 damage. The back story is nice.

2d8 works nicely with the Vital Strike feat tree though.


Turin the Mad wrote:

Seems a steep price to pay to go from dealing 2d6 to 2d8 damage. The back story is nice.

2d8 works nicely with the Vital Strike feat tree though.

It was more story then anything.


Hi. What if the wizard has proficiency, but he weapon does not have any range increment listed (i.e., is not a traditional thrown weapon)? Does the -4 penalty from p. 141 CRB, last full para in column 1 under Thrown apply to, say, an elf wizard lobbing his longsword at someone? From the same para, would a half-orc Wiz HotAing his greataxe need a full-round action?


Randomly stepped in here and realized your post was fairly recent.

- The penalty for it not being a thrown weapon does NOT apply, as the ability itself MAKES it a thrown weapon, essentially.

- It only takes a standard round because 1) It is not an improvised thrown weapon when using the ability(as above) and 2) The ability itself states that it is a standard action.

The better question is if the two-handed strength bonus of 1.5 applies, and the FAQ seems to imply that it only gets the strength mod bonus with the rules as written, but the spirit of the ability implies that it should .

I tend to agree that it should get the x1.5 bonus, as it is a limited use ability, and it is balanced out because you will be running into other issues if you're a caster wielding a two-handed weapon.

I've been researching this a bit lately since I recently made a half-orc cleric with a greataxe, and the above pretty much sums up what I've figured out. My GM is fine with the x1.5 strength to damage (especially considering they only have 14 strength), but I still need to check with what he thinks about the critical. Again, the FAQ said it is a rules as written vs. spirit of the ability.

I tend to think they should just be the threat range and multiplier of the weapon used, as weapons in and of themselves have mechanisms to keep themselves balanced through proficiency. I mean, really... what is more frightening? A club flying at you through the air, or a heavy pick?


PRD said wrote:
Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

It doesn't say you actually throw it. Elf wielding a Longsword, or a half-orc wielding a falchion/greataxe should be no problem RAW. However, if the GM is uncomfortable, there is always the feat two-handed thrower from Ultimate Combat. It changes throwing a two handed weapon to just a standard action. Expensive requirements for a wizard though (15 str).

As for the 1.5 damage, I'd say not without two-hand thrower. The feat also grants you 1.5 damage from two hand throws. Giving it to the Wizard for nothing seems cheap.


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Per the RAW, you are assumed to be proficient with any attacks granted by your race or class abilities.

Wizards don't have to take "ray proficiency" to attack with ray spells, or the specialist-school granted ray or distance attacks. They shouldn't need to be "proficient" to use this power either.

The attack is a function of the power, not of the weapon.

Scarab Sages

That might have been useful to the OP six years ago...


I came to the boards for rules help but I stayed for the thread necros.

Good times.

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