To Saradoc:
There's an old saying: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." Or another one that's a little more recent: "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth."
In my opinion, I wouldn't view Clark's statement as any sort of personal attack. If anything, it was constructive criticism. Granted, it was at your expense, but it wasn't personal. It didn't seem to affect the acceptance of your submission, so why take the steps of a letter of complaint?
Clark did bring up a good point in what he said. You (and others) shouldn't wait until the very last minute to make your (and their) submission(s), because something could (and did in your case, unfortunately) go wrong. This is a contest that could very well make someone's future writing career with a helpful foot in the door. A lot of people would love to be in that line of work.
A few people have stressed the need to meet a deadline, and that was Clark's point. From the standpoint of my own military career, not meeting a deadline has consequences; down range, these consequences are often lethal. Working on U-2's, if one of our planes doesn't make its sortie, people could die, and unfortunately, it would mostly likely be our soldiers/marines on the ground.
A writing career is not that dire of a situation, but those who do have one take it seriously; for some, it's what puts the bread on the table and the clothes on their backs.
I'm not trying to lecture you or be condescending you, just that you shouldn't take a little criticism so seriously. It's nothing personal, but it is a reminder and a helpful lesson to take home.
And this means what? That he will reject the entry because the contestant disagreed with him about something completely different? I doubt even Clark would go that far, but I guess you never know...*shrugs*Clark, please quit while you are ahead.Dude. You're arguing with a judge. Publicly! If anyone should quit while they're ahead...well, look in the mirror. Please. For your own sake.
Absolutely not. All submissions are anonymous from the judges' point-of-view. But go back and re-read Yoda's earlier admonition in the same thread. His point is quite valid. The voting public will form an opinion of everyone based on their visible interaction on the messageboards.
P.S. The reason your earlier post "disappeared" is because of a commonly known problem on the messageboards. Sometimes posts "ghost" out for a bit. I found it simply by looking up your "Recent Posts" in your profile and it was still there. So I referenced it here for you since you were responding directly to me.
This guy just hopes his submission was received. If it wasn't submitted due to technical difficulty then so be it. It's not like he posted past the deadline and is whining to be considered anyway. He's just hoping his submission got through.
When a contest judge makes an "object lesson" at Saradoc's expense, it puts both of them in a really awkward position. But then Clark is high profile, so anything he says is magnified x100. It's hard to be subtle all the time.
Maybe we should cut both of them some slack.
We're all gamers here right? Let's help each-other out.
There's a whole world full of people who think we have a strange, obsessive children's hobby. We can spend our energy disagreeing with them instead.
Rolls diplomacy...
"20" !!!
:D
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012
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Star Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9
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I want to discuss professional behavior. When you agree to do something, you do it on time, you do it well, and you follow instructions. When I wrote No Plunder No Pay, my wife and I were expecting our first child. To my abject horror, and in the middle of the writing process, he was born at 5 months, he lived for an hour and a half, he died in my arms. I grieved, I felt immense joy at meeting my son and holding him, but i was crushed that he was going to die. Now what I did after that was I completed my assignment...on time. I did not ask for an extension, I did not blame others, I did not delay. I used every ounce of my being and dedicated my writing to my son. Now every time I read No Plunder, No Play I know that my son Jacob helped me through it. I also believe that being able to focus my energies gave me strength. I want people to understand what "is going on in your lives" is not an excuse. We can either move forward, or we can stop, but WE control what WE chose to do. Here is my point. If I wait till the last moment, I assume the risk of computer error, its even stated in the rules and was brought up on the board several times as a "please avoid, we do not want you to miss out". If you still chose to wait, and you risked missing the deadline, how is that NOT YOUR fault?
I am truly impressed with your ability to complete your assignment on time, considering what you went through. I don't know if I would have been able to do that.
It's not like he posted past the deadline and is whining to be considered anyway.
Errr... actually...
I will be inaccessible for the rest of afternoon and only able to re-submit this evening. I am hoping that the contest will accept this submission since I did submit the item in time. Thank you for your help and I hope the system works this evening.
In the original post he did indeed ask for his submission to be allowed in past the deadline.
Senior Software Developer
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I think I was pretty clear that the author's submission would not be allowed past the deadline. It's my job to make sure the machinery here processes everything properly, and given that the author's submission was the only one this year to have technical difficulties, it was only fair to give an additional avenue for submission. (However, an additional avenue that wouldn't actually create a difference in terms of complying with the rules of the contest.)
Anyway. I didn't have to do anything special to make it work, the author's submission ended up working properly before the deadline, so no harm, no foul.
[And Larcifer. I can't imagine.]
Lancifer, wow.
you're going on my list of inspirational posts.
In fact, you're the first one on it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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Listen. DUDE. Get a grip on reality. Everyone here has a different level of involvement in the game. I simply needed help. Gary helped. End of story. No need for me to let it go when you are the one keeping it going.
Really, the end of the story (if it has happened yet) is a contestant doing his best to demonstrate to his audience of voters what an arrogant boor he is. And yeah, it takes one to know one.
Show some humility and contriteness about how much your error - yes your error - nearly cost you. Your continued contention in this thread reflects more poorly on you than on anyone else.
Perhaps he's like me, in which case he will not kiss up to people who are rude, no matter what the consequences. If I have to kiss up to someone to get their vote, then I do not want their vote. Even if it means I don't win.
Exactly where did anyone ask or expect him to kiss up to anyone? Are you reading the same thread as everyone else?
Man, if those of you that can't handle a little criticism regarding your ability to follow written rules that have been posted for nearly an entire month are acting like this now, how are you going to handle the criticism of your entries if you progress to further levels?
(Post mostly cleared, because watcher is right)
My point is that most of us are here because we WANT the judges to criticize us. Not everyone here likes the judges (nor are you expected to), but we respect what they have to say to us, and that isn't 'kissing up'.
Holylink7118,
I'm asking really nicely, not necessarily for your sake but for Robert Billingham's, let this cool down now.
Robert might have to compete in future rounds and you don't want to damage his chance to solicit some votes by having anyone associate your opinions with him.
I get that you didn't care for Clark's tone, but there is more than one level that you can interpret what he's saying. If you set aside some of the humor, he is also communicating to the reader; "With 800 to a 1000 entries, we don't have the time or resources to make any special exceptions or allowances. There's just too many other people who got it right the first time to evaluate and choose from."
And yeah, I realize that the website had an issue in this case, and that isn't necessarily Robert's fault. Nevertheless, the line has to be drawn somewhere. For the sake of the integrity of the contest, at some point there has to be a cut off. Fortunately for Robert, he found a way to get his entry in before the deadline with Gary Teter's help.
Now it might have been uncomfortable to be used as an example, but it wasn't a personal attack. I really believe that Clark was saying to everyone, "Folks, there are consequences to not following the rules, even when it isn't strictly your fault. This is why you don't trust technology when it comes to a deadline... both in a contest and in real world business. If you don't wait to the last minute, you can usually find some other way to meet the requirements. If you do wait to the last minute, you might find no one can help you. This is a lesson for every facet of your potential freelancing career."
You need to trust that Clark wasn't trying to put Robert down.
As for suck-ups and sycophants, I think you're judging people too harshly. Especially Neil Spicer. He's really bent over backwards to try to help people win or lose based upon the quality of their work and not just on a technicality. That's why he's written so many extensive "how-to" posts. Whether you succeed or fail, he doesn't want it to come down to something other than the merit of your work. However, people have to choose whether to accept his advice or not. As for defending Clark and the system, he's not being a suck-up, he wants people to judged by the same criteria and the same standard by which he was judged. Because that's the fair thing to do.
I hope this post doesn't sound like I'm talking down to you. :(
Let's let this die down now. Self-respect is a wonderful thing, but headstrong pride isn't going to win this contest. Let's give Robert a chance to win this contest based upon the merit of his work and not some misunderstanding.
Thank your for your post, Watcher.
I would also ask that it die down from both sides. What's done is done.
Agreed.
...
and given that the author's submission was the only one this year to have technical difficulties, ...
My friend said he could not get his entry to post either, so at least one other. That was on Thursday and when I asked if he went back that night or on Friday he said no (I talked with him on Saturday). Now I can tell him persistent folks apparently got through.
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I want to discuss professional behavior. When you agree to do something, you do it on time, you do it well, and you follow instructions. When I wrote No Plunder No Pay, my wife and I were expecting our first child. To my abject horror, and in the middle of the writing process, he was born at 5 months, he lived for an hour and a half, he died in my arms. I grieved, I felt immense joy at meeting my son and holding him, but i was crushed that he was going to die. Now what I did after that was I completed my assignment...on time. I did not ask for an extension, I did not blame others, I did not delay. I used every ounce of my being and dedicated my writing to my son. Now every time I read No Plunder, No Play I know that my son Jacob helped me through it. I also believe that being able to focus my energies gave me strength. I want people to understand what "is going on in your lives" is not an excuse. We can either move forward, or we can stop, but WE control what WE chose to do. Here is my point. If I wait till the last moment, I assume the risk of computer error, its even stated in the rules and was brought up on the board several times as a "please avoid, we do not want you to miss out". If you still chose to wait, and you risked missing the deadline, how is that NOT YOUR fault?
Larcifer:
I just wanted to say that I really appreciated you sharing your story with us. You're very correct here. If a person wants the job they've been given...they must meet the rules and deadlines. If a person wants to succeed, they've got to take things seriously. Good luck you :o)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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I want to discuss professional behavior. When you agree to do something, you do it on time, you do it well, and you follow instructions. When I wrote No Plunder No Pay, my wife and I were expecting our first child. To my abject horror, and in the middle of the writing process, he was born at 5 months, he lived for an hour and a half, he died in my arms. I grieved, I felt immense joy at meeting my son and holding him, but i was crushed that he was going to die. Now what I did after that was I completed my assignment...on time. I did not ask for an extension, I did not blame others, I did not delay. I used every ounce of my being and dedicated my writing to my son. Now every time I read No Plunder, No Play I know that my son Jacob helped me through it. I also believe that being able to focus my energies gave me strength.
Damnation, I'm sorry to hear about that, Larcifer. Compared to that, coming in to work today was the right thing for me to do.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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In regards to this being a job interview--personally it's a labor of love, and I have no intention of making a living at it. You can call it a job interview if you like, but to me it's still a contest.Then, to be blunt, you probably shouldn't have entered. The contest is for people who want to get their foot in the door writing for Paizo. If you don't want the prize, why are you entering?
Um, because I want to? Because maybe if by some act of mass insanity I win I'll have an incentive besides 'my own amusement?' :-)
RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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We're responsible for our own decisions. The decision to wait til the last minute was solely yours. And the decision of a judge to politiely say "folks, you have all been warned a thousand times not to do that. Please don't" is reasonable.
And if you advance and DON'T wait til the last minute to submit future rounds, you will have learned your lesson and therefore owe Clark an apology. As if you don't already.
I know if I were a hobby gamer, voting in a contest to give someone a shot, I wouldn't vote for someone I thought I couldn't play with, collaborate with, or for someone who I thought had that same arrogance that makes it hard for gaming to grow more than it has.
Authors should be fun and allow the hobby to expand by translating that fun for other people. They should not have a sense of self-entitlement, and should exude a sense of 'you're gonna love working with me' instead of talking down to potential benefactors.
We're responsible for our own decisions. The decision to wait til the last minute was solely yours. And the decision of a judge to politiely say "folks, you have all been warned a thousand times not to do that. Please don't" is reasonable.
And if you advance and DON'T wait til the last minute to submit future rounds, you will have learned your lesson and therefore owe Clark an apology. As if you don't already.
I know if I were a hobby gamer, voting in a contest to give someone a shot, I wouldn't vote for someone I thought I couldn't play with, collaborate with, or for someone who I thought had that same arrogance that makes it hard for gaming to grow more than it has.
Authors should be fun and allow the hobby to expand by translating that fun for other people. They should not have a sense of self-entitlement, and should exude a sense of 'you're gonna love working with me' instead of talking down to potential benefactors.
Look, this is the last post I will make - a few wise posters above asked for it to die down. I've already submitted a letter of complaint and I'm leaving it at that. If you carefully look above - This entire post could have ended at Gary Teter's original email. I admitted that I was late (I even said I agreed with Clark) - so what you guys are failing to realize is that by a "judge" coming out and making me an "object lesson," it's not about "warning folks" - it's about "using me as an example" when all I simply wanted to know was whether my submission was received. It's absolutely amazing to me that this post got so out of hand. If Gary had said it didn't make it, it was too late, I would have said "darn, but that's okay I understand I submitted late." Many people in this thread have taken it WAY TOO FAR. And then keep taking it further. It's absolutely unreal. I am not going to waste time commenting on this post again.
... Many people in this thread have taken it WAY TOO FAR. And then keep taking it further. It's absolutely unreal. I am not going to waste time commenting on this post again....
[irony]Gosh! That actually happens at Paizo?[/irony]
I've already submitted a letter of complaint
Wow.
Just...wow. Extremly endearing.
Or you can let it die.
It's dead. Trust me.
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"Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off! It wasn't my war! You asked me, I didn't ask you! And I did what I had to do to win! But somebody wouldn't let me win! And I come back to the world and I see all those judges protesting me, spitting. Calling me an object lesson and all kinds of vile crap! Who are they to protest me? Who are they? Unless they've been me and been there and know what the hell they're yelling about!"
This (slightly adjusted) movie quote was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read this thread... I hope people can laugh about it.
CC
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7
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"Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off! It wasn't my war! You asked me, I didn't ask you! And I did what I had to do to win! But somebody wouldn't let me win! And I come back to the world and I see all those judges protesting me, spitting. Calling me an object lesson and all kinds of vile crap! Who are they to protest me? Who are they? Unless they've been me and been there and know what the hell they're yelling about!"
This (slightly adjusted) movie quote was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read this thread... I hope people can laugh about it.
CC
Rambo, John J.
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Rambo, John J."Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off! It wasn't my war! You asked me, I didn't ask you! And I did what I had to do to win! But somebody wouldn't let me win! And I come back to the world and I see all those judges protesting me, spitting. Calling me an object lesson and all kinds of vile crap! Who are they to protest me? Who are they? Unless they've been me and been there and know what the hell they're yelling about!"
This (slightly adjusted) movie quote was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read this thread... I hope people can laugh about it.
CC
Excellent. I am glad I am not the only nut on these boards... :D
Look, this is the last post I will make - a few wise posters above asked for it to die down. I've already submitted a letter of complaint and I'm leaving it at that. If you carefully look above - This entire post could have ended at Gary Teter's original email. I admitted that I was late (I even said I agreed with Clark) - so what you guys are failing to realize is that by a "judge" coming out and making me an "object lesson," it's not about "warning folks" - it's about "using me as an example" when all I simply wanted to know was whether my submission was received. It's absolutely amazing to me that this post got so out of hand. If Gary had said it didn't make it, it was too late, I would have said "darn, but that's okay I understand I submitted late." Many people in this thread have taken it WAY TOO FAR. And then keep taking it further. It's absolutely unreal. I am not going to waste time commenting on this post again.
I'm sorry, but that is the risk you take by posting your cry for help in the forum, instead of sending an e-mail to Gary or customer support.
This thread is full of valuable lessons, not just about submitting in time, but also about handling public critique, something that anyone who makes it past round one will have to deal with.
I fully appreciate that you were the victim of a technical failure - but you were also very clearly warned that it would be a good idea to submit in time for such difficulties to be handled:
From the FAQ:
How do I enter the RPG Superstar contest?
Write up a new and original wondrous item for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Core Rulebook. Then, after 2PM PST on December 4, 2010, log in to your paizo.com account, go to the RPG Superstar home page, and submit your entry. Entries must be received before 2PM PST on January 1, 2010 (though you should consider submitting earlier than the last minute, in case something delays or prevents you from submitting before the deadline).
There is a reason they put that in the FAQ - and next year someone else will probably be in your shoes. So I do not think Clark (or Neil or Watcher) was out of line.
With that off my chest - what was that people were saying about dead horses?
Moderator lock, anyone?
OMG Gorbacz a Roxette quote? Tre awesome!
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To my abject horror, and in the middle of the writing process, he was born at 5 months, he lived for an hour and a half, he died in my arms. I grieved, I felt immense joy at meeting my son and holding him, but i was crushed that he was going to die.
My wife and I gamed with you at PaizoCon last year and we have a daughter who could leave us any day. We both just want to tell you we are sorry for your loss. If you had to step away from writing, I am sure James would have understood. Professionals have back up plans and can work around life events. If you are like me, in a rough time, I kind of dive into my work. It helps me heal.
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Contributor
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To my abject horror, and in the middle of the writing process, he was born at 5 months, he lived for an hour and a half, he died in my arms. I grieved, I felt immense joy at meeting my son and holding him, but i was crushed that he was going to die.My wife and I gamed with you at PaizoCon last year and we have a daughter who could leave us any day. We both just want to tell you we are sorry for your loss. If you had to step away from writing, I am sure James would have understood. Professionals have back up plans and can work around life events. If you are like me, in a rough time, I kind of dive into my work. It helps me heal.
My thoughts and fervent prayers are with you both. I admire your ability to maintain your professional responsibilities at such difficult times.
My twin daughters were born at 25-and-a-half weeks, after my wife had undergone major surgery and a six-week hospitalization. My wife, their medical team, and I helped the girls through numerous struggles for 3 months in the UC San Francisco NICU before we were finally able to bring them home.
I was assigned to a graduate program at the time. I couldn't do much of anything but focus on my wife and daughters. I did two things to help me get through the long hours while my wife was resting and all I could do was be there with her: I created a website to keep people informed of our girls' progress, and I worked on the creation of my own fantasy setting. The first project helped me keep things in perspective and organize my thoughts about what was happening. The second gave me a chance to escape for a while. Both were absolutely necessary.
I hope that both you and your families can find comfort and healing at this difficult time.
Wow, some angry people here.
I didn't have the time (ironic statement)to read all the way down, but it's my opinion that Saradoc is right. Clark, if you want to make a lesson out of this, make your own thread. It's rude to be so condescending to somebody politely asking for help. In fact, I'm amazed some people were as rude as they were here. Certainly, Saradoc made a mistake. I expect he realized that. But it is rude to give him a hard time about it.
Of course, if you have already apologized or if the topic has already changed, then feel free to ignore this.
EDIT: Well, topic seems to have changed. I'll shut up now.
I'm having Ross lock this thread. Tempers are hot and only a handful of people know the entire story, which means many assumptions are being made. We don't need to discuss this further.