Will there be half-drow?


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Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think the subject is self explanatory. :)


Wouldnt they just be half elves then?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Half-Drow = half-elves. But with darker complexions and eye color that tends toward red.

Dark Archive

There's always half-drow once my party is finished with them. Half of them is here and the other half is over there, watch where you step. It's a little messy.


Wow, even their guts are indigo!


In FR all they did was take a half-elf and replace the low-light vision with darkvision 60ft.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Green Ronin has an OGL half-drown in their Racial Codex for Drow. It's an ECL 1 race, and it's pretty well balanced. To me, a Half-Elf does not a Half-Drow make. No more than an Elf can be a Drow in sheep's clothing.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:
In FR all they did was take a half-elf and replace the low-light vision with darkvision 60ft.

This is the one I've always liked best myself. If you're out for the RP then this is great. If you're looking for a big power boost ... well half elves in pathfinder are better anyway.


Misery wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
In FR all they did was take a half-elf and replace the low-light vision with darkvision 60ft.
This is the one I've always liked best myself. If you're out for the RP then this is great. If you're looking for a big power boost ... well half elves in pathfinder are better anyway.

I like the idea of them being just Dark Skinned Half-Elves (and hopefully completely evil). One of the things I like best about Golarion Drow is that they are completely evil and not viable as a good or neutral PC race.

(I.E. no @#$% Drizzt)

And I want half-drow to be the same way.

Keep them a mysterious, evil adversary race. Like demons and devils.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In FR they are completely evil as well. There will always be the "exception".

Dark Archive

Isn't that sort of an insane concept for a sentient creature with free will, though? I'll buy cultural tendency toward an alignment without batting an eyelid, and I'll even buy demons or some types of faeries or whatever else having inflexible alignments because I feel those creatures are written as not always having free will (at least not fully), but I cannot for the life of me fathom a thinking, feeling, intelligent creature with free will being tied to an alignment because of race. It just doesn't make sense. What's stopping drow from doing good? What about the drow abandoned at birth, raised by lawful good Andoren doctors who work on a sliding scale (pay only what you can afford), give money to breast-cancer and feed-the-poor charities, and adopt a new disadvantaged kid every year just to give him or her a good home, and a pony, and two cute puppies? What's forcing that drow to be evil, despite everything in his or her culture and way of life running contrary to that?

My friends and I pretty much always ignore the alignment restrictions of monsters in bestiaries and monster manuals, even though alignment is a huge part of some of our games. We always play in homebrew worlds too, to avoid any of this sort of baggage that comes with campaign settings, but it just strikes me as completely insane that a free-thinking creature could be incapable of breaking certain alignment-based mental roadblocks.


Benn Roe wrote:
Isn't that sort of an insane concept for a sentient creature with free will, though?

See the thing is in Golarion Drow are corrupted by Demons. Evey last one has a twisted Demonic corrupted soul. Which is a nice way around that

Scarab Sages

Aren't Orcs pretty much evil...half orcs get a choice.

Also, if half-drow=half-elf, then there is no reason it can't be a PC race

A human character of mine (Calistrian female) almost had this problem in the Second Darkness campaign. Apparently the DM failed the conception check. :)

If she had gotten pregnant, then the half-drow would have been raised by humans.

He mentioned half-drow being addressed in Forgotten Realms.

The Exchange

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Benn Roe wrote:
Isn't that sort of an insane concept for a sentient creature with free will, though?
See the thing is in Golarion Drow are corrupted by Demons. Evey last one has a twisted Demonic corrupted soul. Which is a nice way around that

But you have to keep in mind that even though the Golarion setting is their main setting, not everybody uses it for their own campaign and some people would really like rules for the half-drow (even though I agree with the other people that say it should be mostly just the half-elf. They should get as much from the drow parent as normal half-elves get from their elf parent). Also, there are numerous stories about even demons being redeemed and running counter to their heritage. Nothing is ever set in stone, because one game designer or other will come in and muck it up (sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse)

EDIT: Also, Aasimars don't have to be good and Tieflings don't have to be evil (to my knowledge)

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Half-Drow = half-elves. But with darker complexions and eye color that tends toward red.

You know that's not true James. Drow aren't even equal to to full blooded Elves.


dulsin wrote:
In FR they are completely evil as well. There will always be the "exception".

"Exception" precludes "completely". And once you get a good-aligned deity, you aren't even allowed near "completely".

gigglestick wrote:


I like the idea of them being just Dark Skinned Half-Elves (and hopefully completely evil).

Don't you mean half evil?

gigglestick wrote:

One of the things I like best about Golarion Drow is that they are completely evil and not viable as a good or neutral PC race.

(I.E. no @#$% Drizzt)

Where did you read that? They won't have evil drow NPCs, and there won't be a good-aligned colony.

But Drizzt is very much a possibility.

Drizzt's a great character. It's not his fault that some imagination-less people copied him, and a bunch of idiots took it to call every character that has even a passing resemblance (i.e. same creature type, class, alignment or equipment choice) a "Drizzt clone".

gigglestick wrote:


And I want half-drow to be the same way.

Why have half-drow at all then? If they're the same way.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:


See the thing is in Golarion Drow are corrupted by Demons. Evey last one has a twisted Demonic corrupted soul.

First time I heard that. Do you have a reference?


Benn Roe wrote:
Isn't that sort of an insane concept for a sentient creature with free will, though? I'll buy cultural tendency toward an alignment without batting an eyelid, and I'll even buy demons or some types of faeries or whatever else having inflexible alignments because I feel those creatures are written as not always having free will (at least not fully), but I cannot for the life of me fathom a thinking, feeling, intelligent creature with free will being tied to an alignment because of race.

You're assuming they have free will. that there's not an element of determinism to their alignment. Intelligence and free will aren't requirements of a thinking race, as you've pointed out. You're also thinking in terms more familiar to the modern scientific world. In ancient / medieval times there was a belief in inherant traits. Some people were born "good" others "bad", some "noble" others "ignoble". Goes with the magic thing. This shouldn't preclude some unusual cases.

Benn Roe wrote:
My friends and I pretty much always ignore the alignment restrictions of monsters in bestiaries and monster manuals, even though alignment is a huge part of some of our games. We always play in homebrew worlds too, to avoid any of this sort of baggage that comes with campaign settings, but it just strikes me as completely insane that a free-thinking creature could be incapable of breaking certain alignment-based mental roadblocks.

I have had the same homebrew campaign world for 35 years. I've altered some alignments when I thought others fitted some races / monsters better. My Drow are NE. I figured given the harshness of the under ground world they had better be a little more cooperative than "CE". But don't worry, they are demon worshippers. As for my NE Drow, the dark skin is the curse of a god (the Elfin Sun God, hence the problem with sunlight) for their being traitors to ancient Elvinesse. If any are born who aren't dark, guess what happens? It's not good :) The mark (dark skin) doesn't equate with evil per se, but the life / culture enforce a certain uniformity and there is just... bad blood in the race which pushes it's members towards evil. The mark of the Burning Lord also allows the traitors to be identified and exterminated (I didn't say the god was good either) by his Templars...

As for half Drow (back on topic!) they tend to either have the mark or not, no inbetween. Breeds like this function as half Elfs (if human / Drow) or Drow (if Elf / Drow), but whether they are considered Drow, or not depends on if they have the mark of the Sun God.


KaeYoss wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:


See the thing is in Golarion Drow are corrupted by Demons. Evey last one has a twisted Demonic corrupted soul.
First time I heard that. Do you have a reference?

Unless I am mistaken, Drow are corrupted elves. Even normal elves who get corrupted enough become Drow, they are demonic tainted. Do to Rovomogs prison If I recall{I know I mangled his name}

Second darkness has the most info if I recall

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Are we bashing drow? I want to play!

I detest the idea of drow PCs so much I made the drow aberrations in my own campaign world. They were created by Tsathoggua as a mockery of surface-dwelling elves after he encountered some elven explorers deep in his subterranean lair. They had no bones and melted into ill-smelling puddles of black ooze when they died. They could never be PCs or mate with other races due to their alien minds and physiology and their undying devotion to Tsathoggua.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Benn Roe wrote:
Isn't that sort of an insane concept for a sentient creature with free will, though?
See the thing is in Golarion Drow are corrupted by Demons. Evey last one has a twisted Demonic corrupted soul. Which is a nice way around that

While this is true for some drow, it's not true for all of them. A more detailed description is below, under the spoiler button.

Spoiler:
The original drow became what they are when a group of selfish and bitter and cruel elves fleeing Earthfall wandered too deeply and brushed against Rovagug, who transformed them into drow. They then abandoned the gods and began worshiping demons. Since then, the rare elf who is truly and unrepentantly evil and chaotic and just plain bad has a chance (not a guarantee) of spontaneously transforming into a drow... but this is still pretty rare. The VAST majority of the Darklands' drow were born drow to drow parents, and are evil primarily because they were raised in an evil and heartless environment.

This DOES mean that there can be good aligned drow in Golarion. They'll be rare... more rare than in Forgotten Realms, for sure, but there's plenty of opportunity for anyone who wants to play a good-aligned drow elf, or even play a Drizzt clone if they want.

What you probably won't see are any NPC good-guy drow in the immediate future in a Paizo product. And if you DO see one, that NPC is going to be either a very unique individual or one who somehow slipped by my notice.

But yeah... while most of Golarion's drow are evil, they don't all HAVE to be evil. Playing drow is a popular choice, and we don't want to make that choice impossible in Golarion.

In fact... my longest-played character was a good drow character. She got killed though and then reincarnated as a half-aquatic elf. She'll be showing up in the Paizo PC section at the end of the NPC guide... but after her reincarnation, so she's not really a drow anymore. But my point is that I like playing drow elves as PCs as much as anyone, so it doesn't make sense to build a world in which such a popular choice for PC is impossible.

The good news for GMs who hate good drow is that we won't be putting good drow in the game as NPCs. The good news for players who love playing drow is that you can, provided your GM's cool with it, of course, without it being TOO much of an aberration to the game.

Remember... even if EVERY PC in EVERY home game were playing a drow, that'd still only be 4 or 6 or whatever good drow in the world. Even if there's tens of thousands of PC drow, there's not in the world itself.

Sczarni

I say to each their own.
Personally I made dark elves the good guys in my homebrew, just they have short dark curley hair instead of that weird white one.
On the other hand white elves come from deep within the earth and their pale skin and red eyes are a consecuence of their lightless existance.


James Jacobs wrote:
Stuff

Cool, I stand corrected

Paizo Employee Creative Director

And as for half-drow... we're probably not going to be stating any up soon, and if we do, we'll make them half-elves. That's not to say that Green Ronin's take on half-drow is no good, of course! It's pretty cool, in fact. It's just not the way we'll be going for them in Golarion. I don't think, at least. We haven't statted any half-drow NPCs up yet, so that decision hasn't officially been made yet.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Stuff
Cool, I stand corrected

No prob!

Also worth noting: Rovagug isn't a demon. The only demon who is a proper god is Lamashtu. Rovagug's something else entirely.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
And as for half-drow... we're probably not going to be stating any up soon, and if we do, we'll make them half-elves. That's not to say that Green Ronin's take on half-drow is no good, of course! It's pretty cool, in fact. It's just not the way we'll be going for them in Golarion. I don't think, at least. We haven't statted any half-drow NPCs up yet, so that decision hasn't officially been made yet.

Well you should do half-drow. You all did 3 more half races in the Bestiary and it seems to me Drow certainly not elves anymore. Also, Half-drow allow for more neutral and good drow depending on WHICH parent raised them then a full blooded drow.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Stuff
Cool, I stand corrected

No prob!

Also worth noting: Rovagug isn't a demon. The only demon who is a proper god is Lamashtu. Rovagug's something else entirely.

I believe there was a blog post about yelling at you if we see you on the message boards this week. So consider yourself yelled at.

Graywulfe


James Jacobs wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Stuff
Cool, I stand corrected

No prob!

Also worth noting: Rovagug isn't a demon. The only demon who is a proper god is Lamashtu. Rovagug's something else entirely.

Yeah not up to date on the setting, Don't own the book so going off memory mostly.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:


Yeah not up to date on the setting, Don't own the book so going off memory mostly.

*gasps*

Infidel! Betrayer!


All this talk makes me want to play a proper Drizzt clone. :P

graywulfe wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Stuff
Cool, I stand corrected

No prob!

Also worth noting: Rovagug isn't a demon. The only demon who is a proper god is Lamashtu. Rovagug's something else entirely.

I believe there was a blog post about yelling at you if we see you on the message boards this week. So consider yourself yelled at.

Graywulfe

Yeah, me, too. Let's yell at James.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, JAMES!

This reminds me of an Editor joke I heard: Some newspaper sent a team out into the jungle after a new tribe of natives were discovered. They found the natives, but were captured and then found out that the guys were cannibals. One guy from the crew in particular was crying like a little girl, so the cannibals brought him before the chief.

"Why are you crying"
"Because I am so young, I wanted to become really famous and make my career with this, and now I'm going to die."
"What is your job?"
"I'm an editor."
"Then cheer up! By this time tomorrow, you'll be editor-in-chief!"

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KaeYoss wrote:
All this talk makes me want to play a proper Drizzt clone. :P

I hate the term Drizzt clone, it assumes every non-evil drow is an emo teenager uncomfortable around girls.


SirUrza wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
All this talk makes me want to play a proper Drizzt clone. :P
I hate the term Drizzt clone, it assumes every non-evil drow is an emo teenager uncomfortable around girls.

That's the usual player of one, at least.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QOShea wrote:
SirUrza wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
All this talk makes me want to play a proper Drizzt clone. :P
I hate the term Drizzt clone, it assumes every non-evil drow is an emo teenager uncomfortable around girls.
That's the usual player of one, at least.

Not helping. :P

I'll point out there was a very fun drow cleric in Baldur's Gate (true neutral i believe) and a choatic good drow rogue in Demon Stone, neither of which are anything like Drizzt.


SirUrza wrote:
QOShea wrote:
SirUrza wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
All this talk makes me want to play a proper Drizzt clone. :P
I hate the term Drizzt clone, it assumes every non-evil drow is an emo teenager uncomfortable around girls.
That's the usual player of one, at least.

Not helping. :P

I'll point out there was a very fun drow cleric in Baldur's Gate (true neutral i believe) and a choatic good drow rogue in Demon Stone, neither of which are anything like Drizzt.

There was a female drow cleric who was about to be burned at the stake. She was a very powerful character and I made sure to try to keep her in the party. I don't remember her alignment.

Shadow Lodge

I'm going to agree with KaeYoss on the Clone.

"What armor are you wearing?"
"A chainshirt."
"What, your a Drizzt clone!?"
"No."
"But you're wearing a chainshirt, and so does he!"
"..."


Dragonborn3 wrote:

I'm going to agree with KaeYoss on the Clone.

"What armor are you wearing?"
"A chianshirt."
"What, your a Drizzt clone!?"
"No."
"But you're wearing a chainshirt, and so does he!"
"..."

No, no no, I use two long swords, and have pet tiger. I just happen to be drow, CG, and a ranger, but see my character is nothing like Drizzt. Oh and my eyes are bLue, see blue, nothing alike at all.

Shadow Lodge

Hmm, your character sheet says Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5...

And if it weren't for Guenwyvar he wouldn't be nearly as cool... and you know it!


No I am Ftr9/Bbn2/Rgr5. see nothing alike

Shadow Lodge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
No I am Ftr9/Bbn2/Rgr5. see nothing alike

I just saw you change them though... and I still see 11 levels of non-ranger classes followed by 5 levels of ranger...


19 books of 10th grade garbage prose and maudlin, adolescent journal entries by the the talentless Salvatore and still counting. Give Salvatore credit for making a career out of this dyslexic swill, and start a new (better) thread about something other than the ever-annoying Drow. Like a Pathfinder version of the Flumph, per esempio.


can't a guy change his character? stop oppressing my character development !

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Focus guys, focus. HALF-DROW.

Shadow Lodge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
can't a guy change his character? stop oppressing my character development !

If it was your character I would!

SirUrza wrote:
Focus guys, focus. HALF-DROW.

We are focusing.. on the drow half.


SirUrza wrote:
Focus guys, focus. HALF-DROW.

"That ship has sailed. You know how many of em we had to skin to make the sails? why can't we find some fat half drow, been so much eaiser with fat half drow"


SirUrza wrote:
Focus guys, focus. HALF-DROW.

Sorry man but as I said, half drow are just another kind of half elf. Drow are just a subrace of elves just like Grey, Sylvan, or wild elves. It's true that Drow have their own history, culture, and such but so does every other subrace (they just havnt been detailed much since 2nd edition) but at the end of the day they are still elves and their human/elf children are just half elves with different skin, hair, and eye pigments.

I mean on the assumption that they were anything else we would have to make other Subrace equivalent races. Like a Mul (thats half human/dwarf for those that dont know) that has Duerggar as the dwarf side of their parents.


Windcaler wrote:


I mean on the assumption that they were anything else we would have to make other Subrace equivalent races. Like a Mul (thats half human/dwarf for those that dont know) that has Duerggar as the dwarf side of their parents.

I think that's called an Emul, they brood, have long (dyed) black hair and wear their sisters pants.

It's hard being a sterile half-breed who killed your mom during birth.

*sigh*

I remember playing a Good Drow PRE-Drizzt (gasp). I forsake the evil magics of my ancestors and stayed gloved and heavy-hooded as much to conceal my identity as to protect me from the sun.

As for half-drow, well, there was nothing to that but drawbacks. When the topic came up way back in the day it was ruled that the half-drow would be a half-elf with a blue cast to his skin and very light-blond hair.

Oh, and people who saw him for the first time would just as soon spit at him, arrest him or kill him instead of talk.

Mostly they just spit on him.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Windcaler wrote:
SirUrza wrote:
Focus guys, focus. HALF-DROW.
Sorry man but as I said, half drow are just another kind of half elf. Drow are just a subrace of elves just like Grey, Sylvan, or wild elves.

And yet none of those subraces have their own stats in Pathfinder RPG.


well to be fair, a drow is barely an elf. But once it mates with a human, alot of the "extra" stuff is gone. As it's not a drow., Funny but it may be more elf then most drow due to the none drow blood. I mean a drow and an elf, the kid is not both, it's an elf or a drow.

So yeah it's a half elf with dark vision maybe. A case could be made for them to keep low light, human not having darkvision and all, they just get the enhanced low light version


SirUrza wrote:


And yet none of those subraces have their own stats in Pathfinder RPG.

Yeah 3.0, 3.5 and Pathfinder have all veered away from the massive amount of subraces for demihumans (except in the case of forgotten realms) but you can find them all in the 3.5 monster manual and Im pretty sure theyre in the SRD as well. All you would have to do is give them another +2 to an ability score to even them out with pathfinder races

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