paizo.com Recent Posts in Lyre of Truth-Tellingpaizo.com Recent Posts in Lyre of Truth-Telling2012-11-15T22:21:07Z2012-11-15T22:21:07ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJared Goodwinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#482010-01-25T10:19:42Z2010-01-25T10:19:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jim Groves wrote:</div><blockquote>Jason Nelson mentioned the possible visuals (audibles?) that could come into play with the lyre and I wondered about that myself. There's a touch of "knowing something" without explanation of how this mysterious knowledge is passed or communicated. In fact, my own item does that too, but is designed to be subtle (and I was following the saving throw mechanic verbiage precisely). Getting back to your item- I might have liked to have read some of the lyre's 'visuals' in your entry. Don't take that too hard, I'm not sure its mandatory or even good design.</blockquote><p>Something I thought of after submitting this:
<p>"Any character in this area who attempts to speak a deliberate, knowing falsehood must make a Bluff check opposed by the performer's Perform (string instruments) roll, or that falsehood obviously rings false and is immediately apparent to all who can hear it."</p>
<p>I was fooling with trying to work the expression "ring of truth" into the description and it didn't come to me until later.</p>Jim Groves wrote:Jason Nelson mentioned the possible visuals (audibles?) that could come into play with the lyre and I wondered about that myself. There's a touch of "knowing something" without explanation of how this mysterious knowledge is passed or communicated. In fact, my own item does that too, but is designed to be subtle (and I was following the saving throw mechanic verbiage precisely). Getting back to your item- I might have liked to have read some of the lyre's 'visuals' in your...Jared Goodwin2010-01-25T10:19:42ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingSean McGowanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#472010-01-25T10:05:54Z2010-01-25T10:05:53Z<p>And another member of the super-secret-Superstar-2010 Bard Item Club! I like this one for obvious reasons; I've already talked at length on the <i>Muse</i> thread about how fond I am of bard items. What amazes me is that both you and Andrew created items that basically grant an extra kind of bardic performance; mostly because I wish _I'd_ thought of that, dammit! Very nice entry. I approve. Now somewhere out there there has to be a bard carrying one of these, wearing a <i>muse of the solemn vessel</i>, chomping on a <i>nightingale's tongue</i>, with a screeching monkey on his or her shoulder...</p>And another member of the super-secret-Superstar-2010 Bard Item Club! I like this one for obvious reasons; I've already talked at length on the Muse thread about how fond I am of bard items. What amazes me is that both you and Andrew created items that basically grant an extra kind of bardic performance; mostly because I wish _I'd_ thought of that, dammit! Very nice entry. I approve. Now somewhere out there there has to be a bard carrying one of these, wearing a muse of the solemn vessel,...Sean McGowan2010-01-25T10:05:53ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingEric Hindleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#462010-01-23T18:39:53Z2010-01-23T18:39:53Z<p>Congrats my fellow Canadian! This item does set a very good scene- the party wanders into the king's audience chamber after their latest destructive rampage. A lyre strums somewhere in the background, and attendents scurry about the room. The king begins to question them and the rogue is ready to tell a whopper- and the whole court knows it...</p>
<p>It does seem a little impractical for most games, but then, why should every item fit every game?</p>Congrats my fellow Canadian! This item does set a very good scene- the party wanders into the king's audience chamber after their latest destructive rampage. A lyre strums somewhere in the background, and attendents scurry about the room. The king begins to question them and the rogue is ready to tell a whopper- and the whole court knows it...
It does seem a little impractical for most games, but then, why should every item fit every game?Eric Hindley2010-01-23T18:39:53ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJim Groveshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#452011-07-21T17:57:38Z2010-01-23T16:21:30Z<p>This is a good solid item. I liked it and I can see PCs enjoying it a great deal.</p>
<p>You've gotten some good feedback, so I won't belabor any specific issue already covered. I'm also cautious about critiquing the competition. :D</p>
<p>Jason Nelson mentioned the possible visuals (audibles?) that could come into play with the lyre and I wondered about that myself. There's a touch of "knowing something" without explanation of how this mysterious knowledge is passed or communicated. In fact, my own item does that too, but is designed to be subtle (and I was following the saving throw mechanic verbiage precisely). Getting back to your item- I might have liked to have read some of the lyre's 'visuals' in your entry. Don't take that too hard, I'm not sure its mandatory or even good design. It was merely one observation I had, and a professional editor/designer may disagree. Bard items just strike me as "showy" items, not subtle ones.</p>
<p>Great item and best of luck! I look forward to your entry in the next Round!</p>This is a good solid item. I liked it and I can see PCs enjoying it a great deal.
You've gotten some good feedback, so I won't belabor any specific issue already covered. I'm also cautious about critiquing the competition. :D
Jason Nelson mentioned the possible visuals (audibles?) that could come into play with the lyre and I wondered about that myself. There's a touch of "knowing something" without explanation of how this mysterious knowledge is passed or communicated. In fact, my own item...Jim Groves2010-01-23T16:21:30ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingPower Word Unzip (alias of Richard Moore, Jon Brazer Enterprises)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#442010-01-21T22:51:42Z2010-01-21T22:51:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">A Man In Black wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Power Word Unzip wrote:</div><blockquote>It's a neat concept. Not as neat as the <i>twintone flute</i>, but neat. I can see this item being very useful in games that rely heavily on intrigue and deception; I can also just as easily see it ruining those aspects of play. </blockquote><p>I went to a fair bit of effort to make sure it wouldn't.
<p><li>Its use is obvious and there's an easy way to test for it: just announce that your mother is a chimera.
<br />
<li>It's on the skill curve. There's no +20 to whatever (like Invisibility) or You Just Fail (like Silence).
<br />
<li>It's not practical to use all the time. It's a 1/day item.
<br />
<li>It doesn't reveal the truth, only the lie.</p>
<p>In practice, it's less useful and less disruptive than someone who has trained in Sense Motive, while still desirable. I think that's a sweet spot. </blockquote><p>Excellent argument. Somehow I missed the once-daily restriction in my first read-through; I was thinking it could be used in place of a bardic performance. I gotta stop drinking from the fire hose - opening top 32 items eight at a time in tabbed browsing is starting to confuse me. :)A Man In Black wrote:Power Word Unzip wrote:It's a neat concept. Not as neat as the twintone flute, but neat. I can see this item being very useful in games that rely heavily on intrigue and deception; I can also just as easily see it ruining those aspects of play.
I went to a fair bit of effort to make sure it wouldn't. Its use is obvious and there's an easy way to test for it: just announce that your mother is a chimera.
It's on the skill curve. There's no +20 to whatever (like...Power Word Unzip (alias of Richard Moore, Jon Brazer Enterprises)2010-01-21T22:51:42ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJared Goodwinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#432010-01-21T21:20:56Z2010-01-21T21:20:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Power Word Unzip wrote:</div><blockquote>It's a neat concept. Not as neat as the <i>twintone flute</i>, but neat. I can see this item being very useful in games that rely heavily on intrigue and deception; I can also just as easily see it ruining those aspects of play. </blockquote><p>I went to a fair bit of effort to make sure it wouldn't.
<p><li>Its use is obvious and there's an easy way to test for it: just announce that your mother is a chimera.
<br />
<li>It's on the skill curve. There's no +20 to whatever (like Invisibility) or You Just Fail (like Silence).
<br />
<li>It's not practical to use all the time. It's a 1/day item.
<br />
<li>It doesn't reveal the truth, only the lie.</p>
<p>In practice, it's less useful and less disruptive than someone who has trained in Sense Motive, while still desirable. I think that's a sweet spot.</p>Power Word Unzip wrote:It's a neat concept. Not as neat as the twintone flute, but neat. I can see this item being very useful in games that rely heavily on intrigue and deception; I can also just as easily see it ruining those aspects of play.
I went to a fair bit of effort to make sure it wouldn't. Its use is obvious and there's an easy way to test for it: just announce that your mother is a chimera.
It's on the skill curve. There's no +20 to whatever (like Invisibility) or You Just Fail...Jared Goodwin2010-01-21T21:20:55ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingPower Word Unzip (alias of Richard Moore, Jon Brazer Enterprises)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#422010-01-21T21:16:49Z2010-01-21T21:16:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Madness Follows wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Jason Nelson wrote:</div><blockquote> The visuals of this are fun, as it's easy to think of a throne room with a bard on the size strumming lazily away and the lord questioning someone, and the lyre sounding a sour note when someone lies - was there something like this in <i>The Black Cauldron</i>? Seems like my memory is pinging that the bard's instrument did something similar.</blockquote>Kinda. The Harp in <i>The Black Cauldron</i> (or the Prydian Chronicles) would have a string snap if the player tried to embellish the song to make what the song was about more glorified than it actually was. </blockquote><p>I've been re-reading Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain over the last few weeks, so I immediately thought of Fflewddur Fflam's harp when I saw this item in the top 32. Of course, Fflewddur's harp forced HIM to tell the truth (and not just when he was singing!) - but this one forces other people to be honest.
<p>It's a neat concept. Not as neat as the <i>twintone flute</i>, but neat. I can see this item being very useful in games that rely heavily on intrigue and deception; I can also just as easily see it ruining those aspects of play.</p>Madness Follows wrote:Jason Nelson wrote: The visuals of this are fun, as it's easy to think of a throne room with a bard on the size strumming lazily away and the lord questioning someone, and the lyre sounding a sour note when someone lies - was there something like this in The Black Cauldron? Seems like my memory is pinging that the bard's instrument did something similar.
Kinda. The Harp in The Black Cauldron (or the Prydian Chronicles) would have a string snap if the player tried to...Power Word Unzip (alias of Richard Moore, Jon Brazer Enterprises)2010-01-21T21:16:49ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingGerald Andrewshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#412010-01-21T20:38:04Z2010-01-21T20:37:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jason Nelson wrote:</div><blockquote> The visuals of this are fun, as it's easy to think of a throne room with a bard on the size strumming lazily away and the lord questioning someone, and the lyre sounding a sour note when someone lies - was there something like this in <i>The Black Cauldron</i>? Seems like my memory is pinging that the bard's instrument did something similar.</blockquote><p>Kinda. The Harp in <i>The Black Cauldron</i> (or the Prydian Chronicles) would have a string snap if the player tried to embellish the song to make what the song was about more glorified than it actually was.Jason Nelson wrote:The visuals of this are fun, as it's easy to think of a throne room with a bard on the size strumming lazily away and the lord questioning someone, and the lyre sounding a sour note when someone lies - was there something like this in The Black Cauldron? Seems like my memory is pinging that the bard's instrument did something similar.
Kinda. The Harp in The Black Cauldron (or the Prydian Chronicles) would have a string snap if the player tried to embellish the song to make...Gerald Andrews2010-01-21T20:37:36ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJared Goodwinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#402010-01-21T20:30:59Z2010-01-21T20:30:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Patrick Walsh wrote:</div><blockquote>The rest...it was OK, but not my cup of tea. </blockquote><p>Could you elaborate on "the rest"? I'm not sure what you mean there.Patrick Walsh wrote:The rest...it was OK, but not my cup of tea.
Could you elaborate on "the rest"? I'm not sure what you mean there.Jared Goodwin2010-01-21T20:30:59ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingPatrick Walshhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#392010-01-21T20:18:25Z2010-01-21T20:18:25Z<p>I liked the skill test aspect and that everyone within hearing learned if someone was lying or charmed.</p>
<p>The rest...it was OK, but not my cup of tea.</p>I liked the skill test aspect and that everyone within hearing learned if someone was lying or charmed.
The rest...it was OK, but not my cup of tea.Patrick Walsh2010-01-21T20:18:25ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJason Nelsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#382010-01-21T20:08:21Z2010-01-21T20:08:21Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ross Byers wrote:</div><blockquote> I nipped a post that was clearly intended for a different thread. </blockquote><p>Yeah, I was kinda wondering about that one. :)Ross Byers wrote:I nipped a post that was clearly intended for a different thread.
Yeah, I was kinda wondering about that one. :)Jason Nelson2010-01-21T20:08:21ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingRoss Byershttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#372010-01-21T20:07:46Z2010-01-21T20:07:46Z<p>I nipped a post that was clearly intended for a different thread.</p>I nipped a post that was clearly intended for a different thread.Ross Byers2010-01-21T20:07:46ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJason Nelsonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#362010-01-21T17:29:59Z2010-01-21T17:29:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">A Man In Black wrote:</div><blockquote> You know, if this hadn't qualified, I wouldn't have any copy of it. After submitting it, I reviewed the 2009 rules instead of the 2010 rules by accident, and thought that the word limit was 200 and not 300, so I deleted the copy on my computer in frustration. </blockquote><p>Ouch, an amusing irony there. Good thing it got through then!
<p>On the item, I like it. The pun-name is subtly amusing, and the effect is fun and useful without being overpowered.</p>
<p>I actually prefer that you didn't tie it solely to bardic performance uses, because it makes it an item that isn't for bards only. A good wrinkle might have been, though, to have it be used once per day for up to 30 minutes by anybody (or anybody with N ranks in Perform (string)), but in addition allow a bard to get extra activations per day by spending uses of bardic performance, perhaps the 1 minute for each round of BP, as suggested above. </p>
<p>The visuals of this are fun, as it's easy to think of a throne room with a bard on the size strumming lazily away and the lord questioning someone, and the lyre sounding a sour note when someone lies - was there something like this in <i>The Black Cauldron</i>? Seems like my memory is pinging that the bard's instrument did something similar.</p>
<p>Anyway, good job and good luck!</p>A Man In Black wrote:You know, if this hadn't qualified, I wouldn't have any copy of it. After submitting it, I reviewed the 2009 rules instead of the 2010 rules by accident, and thought that the word limit was 200 and not 300, so I deleted the copy on my computer in frustration.
Ouch, an amusing irony there. Good thing it got through then! On the item, I like it. The pun-name is subtly amusing, and the effect is fun and useful without being overpowered.
I actually prefer that you didn't...Jason Nelson2010-01-21T17:29:59ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJared Goodwinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#342010-01-21T07:14:28Z2010-01-21T07:14:28Z<p>You know, if this hadn't qualified, I wouldn't have any copy of it. After submitting it, I reviewed the 2009 rules instead of the 2010 rules by accident, and thought that the word limit was 200 and not 300, so I deleted the copy on my computer in frustration.</p>You know, if this hadn't qualified, I wouldn't have any copy of it. After submitting it, I reviewed the 2009 rules instead of the 2010 rules by accident, and thought that the word limit was 200 and not 300, so I deleted the copy on my computer in frustration.Jared Goodwin2010-01-21T07:14:28ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingMike Welhamhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#332018-09-27T22:34:52Z2010-01-21T03:59:51Z<p>Nice pun! And a great bard item.</p>
<p>Good luck in the next round.</p>Nice pun! And a great bard item.
Good luck in the next round.Mike Welham2010-01-21T03:59:51ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJoel Flankhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#322010-01-21T03:37:32Z2010-01-21T03:37:31Z<p>Great job making the top 32! This is a useful lower price item that gives bards more options - I like all of that. What I really like is that it's not a spell in a can at all, but in fact a skill in a can. The mechanism of perform vs. bluff is identical to sense motive vs. bluff, and the detect charm or compulsions is also something you can achieve with the sense motive skill. By allowing the user to substitute their perform skill for another skill, the item also mimics the versatile performance bard ability - and by having the skill be sense motive, which isn't one associated with perform (string instruments) it's still useful to a bard who has versatile performance with strings.</p>Great job making the top 32! This is a useful lower price item that gives bards more options - I like all of that. What I really like is that it's not a spell in a can at all, but in fact a skill in a can. The mechanism of perform vs. bluff is identical to sense motive vs. bluff, and the detect charm or compulsions is also something you can achieve with the sense motive skill. By allowing the user to substitute their perform skill for another skill, the item also mimics the versatile...Joel Flank2010-01-21T03:37:31ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJeff Leehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#312019-05-20T21:54:57Z2010-01-21T00:53:09Z<p>Solid item. I really like the way it functions. It would have been a nice bit of flavor if there were some type of actual effect that occurs to show when someone is lying, like their voice taking on a strange, untrustworthy tone, or causing them to stumble over their words.</p>Solid item. I really like the way it functions. It would have been a nice bit of flavor if there were some type of actual effect that occurs to show when someone is lying, like their voice taking on a strange, untrustworthy tone, or causing them to stumble over their words.Jeff Lee2010-01-21T00:53:09ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingDavid Robertshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#302010-01-21T00:44:00Z2010-01-21T00:43:55Z<p>I like this item. In fact I think it's the best Bard item this year.</p>
<p>Here's why I don't think its just a spell-in-a-can. It takes the spell effect (zone of truth) and tweaks it into the established rules for bardic performance (substituting Perform for some other skill, save, or DC). It basically adds a new bardic ability that most players would find useful. I also think that opposed rolls (bluff vs. perform) are inherently more exciting to play out than the enemy simply making a Will save (zone of truth). I have a great image in my head of a Bard, sweat poring from his brow, furiously strumming the lyre trying to trip up a silver tongued assassin or mind-controlled cats-paw.</p>
<p>That said I think the changes SKR recommended would make the item even better.</p>I like this item. In fact I think it's the best Bard item this year.
Here's why I don't think its just a spell-in-a-can. It takes the spell effect (zone of truth) and tweaks it into the established rules for bardic performance (substituting Perform for some other skill, save, or DC). It basically adds a new bardic ability that most players would find useful. I also think that opposed rolls (bluff vs. perform) are inherently more exciting to play out than the enemy simply making a Will save...David Roberts2010-01-21T00:43:55ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-Tellinghogarthhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#292010-01-20T22:02:06Z2010-01-20T22:00:54Z<p>The idea is nifty, but the requirement of ranks in Perform is a bit clunky, IMO. Maybe just set a DC 20 Perform check (so a "Take 10" should be possible for a PC with 7 ranks).</p>
<p>And it's good to see other folks from Saskatoon! (And other Saskatchewanians like Gideon Black.) ;-P</p>The idea is nifty, but the requirement of ranks in Perform is a bit clunky, IMO. Maybe just set a DC 20 Perform check (so a "Take 10" should be possible for a PC with 7 ranks).
And it's good to see other folks from Saskatoon! (And other Saskatchewanians like Gideon Black.) ;-Phogarth2010-01-20T22:00:54ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingTwingshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#282010-01-20T20:31:34Z2010-01-20T20:31:34Z<p>I absolutely love the name. A classic pun that isn't over distracting. Love it.</p>I absolutely love the name. A classic pun that isn't over distracting. Love it.Twings2010-01-20T20:31:34ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingPaul Worthenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#272010-01-20T14:48:23Z2010-01-20T14:48:23Z<p>Cool item! I think it's a bit of a spell-in-a-can, but evidently not so much that it draws undue criticism from the judges. Good luck in the future rounds!</p>Cool item! I think it's a bit of a spell-in-a-can, but evidently not so much that it draws undue criticism from the judges. Good luck in the future rounds!Paul Worthen2010-01-20T14:48:23ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingJames Martinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#262010-01-20T14:41:42Z2010-01-20T14:41:42Z<p>My bard's cup runneth over this year! I love playing bards, also known as the red-headed stepchildren of most adventuring groups and anything that makes a bard cooler gets high marks in my book. Congrats!</p>My bard's cup runneth over this year! I love playing bards, also known as the red-headed stepchildren of most adventuring groups and anything that makes a bard cooler gets high marks in my book. Congrats!James Martin2010-01-20T14:41:42ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingMatthew Morrishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#252010-01-20T13:42:50Z2010-01-20T13:42:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">0gre wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">A Man In Black wrote:</div><blockquote> I appreciate the encouragement. And if my ideas aren't awesome enough to win over anyone who doesn't like my previous post history, then obviously they aren't awesome enough to win. ;D </blockquote>Hahah, you and me both. </blockquote><p>All three of us0gre wrote:A Man In Black wrote: I appreciate the encouragement. And if my ideas aren't awesome enough to win over anyone who doesn't like my previous post history, then obviously they aren't awesome enough to win. ;D
Hahah, you and me both. All three of usMatthew Morris2010-01-20T13:42:50ZRe: Forums: Open Call: Design a wondrous item: Lyre of Truth-TellingGideon Blackhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kayd?Lyre-of-TruthTelling#242010-01-20T12:36:16Z2010-01-20T12:36:16Z<p>Good job, at least if I didn't make it, (this year) I'm glad someone from Saskatchewan did.</p>Good job, at least if I didn't make it, (this year) I'm glad someone from Saskatchewan did.Gideon Black2010-01-20T12:36:16Z