Mage's Magnificent Mansion as a tactical combat spell?


Rules Questions

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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

So where does it say that a dimensional space is a plane? As far as I can tell, it is simply a magical pocket on the material plane and teleportation effects should work.


Ravingdork wrote:
So where does it say that a dimensional space is a plane? As far as I can tell, it is simply a magical pocket on the material plane and teleportation effects should work.

It's another dimension. I don't know where it's specified in the rules, but it's always been a given that you can't teleport from a dimensional pocket to the material plane... I seem to recall that was even the case back in 2nd ed. Pathfinder's official stance? I have no idea.

That does raise an interesting question though... can you bring other dimensional spaces like a portable hole or a bag of holding into a Magnificent Mansion?


I am to lazy to do any real research but......

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Pathfinder

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it.......The window is present on the Material Plane,..... 3.5

These are from the rope trick spell. The fact that you can't be touched by spells leads to it being on another plane, and if you were still in the same plane why would they go out of their way to state the window is visible.

Another point is the fact that creating one extra dimensional plane inside of another may cause bad things to happen. If you were still on the material plane opening an extra dimensional plane would not be an issue, so that also leads to you not being in the material plane.


Dork Lord wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
So where does it say that a dimensional space is a plane? As far as I can tell, it is simply a magical pocket on the material plane and teleportation effects should work.

It's another dimension. I don't know where it's specified in the rules, but it's always been a given that you can't teleport from a dimensional pocket to the material plane... I seem to recall that was even the case back in 2nd ed. Pathfinder's official stance? I have no idea.

That does raise an interesting question though... can you bring other dimensional spaces like a portable hole or a bag of holding into a Magnificent Mansion?

From the PRD Extradimensional Spaces

A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.


Is that changed in PF? I don't recall that rule in 3.5.


Dork Lord wrote:
Is that changed in PF? I don't recall that rule in 3.5.

Yes it changed. In 3.5 the bag of holding and the portable hole were a disaster waiting to happen.

As far as the rope trick combined with other extra dimensional spaces it was only mentioned that it was hazardous, but nothing specific was mentioned, meaning it was up to the DM.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

You can only teleport within the same plane. An extra dimensional space is not on the material plane. It is basically its own plane.

Edit:That may be an oversimplification.

So, would Plase Shift work?

No... Phase Shift requires access to the Ethereal Plane.


LazarX wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

You can only teleport within the same plane. An extra dimensional space is not on the material plane. It is basically its own plane.

Edit:That may be an oversimplification.

So, would Plase Shift work?
No... Phase Shift requires access to the Ethereal Plane.

I think he meant plane shift. I should have caught that.

Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to the ethereal plane?


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to the ethereal plane?

"Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to anywhere else provided you have the right kind of magic" is what I want to know.


Ravingdork wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to the ethereal plane?
"Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to anywhere else provided you have the right kind of magic" is what I want to know.

You can, just cast Plane Shift. That's the right kind of magic in this case.


Dork Lord wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to the ethereal plane?
"Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to anywhere else provided you have the right kind of magic" is what I want to know.
You can, just cast Plane Shift. That's the right kind of magic in this case.

I thought plane shift would work too, but Lazar told me it wouldn't. I am still curious as to why he believes that is the case.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dork Lord wrote:
You can, just cast Plane Shift. That's the right kind of magic in this case.

What about teleport? Is there any (mechanical) reason that wouldn't work?

Liberty's Edge

My advice: Ignore the Great Wheel.

I think that is what is preventing it for LazarX.


wraithstrike wrote:
Dork Lord wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to the ethereal plane?
"Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to anywhere else provided you have the right kind of magic" is what I want to know.
You can, just cast Plane Shift. That's the right kind of magic in this case.
I thought plane shift would work too, but Lazar told me it wouldn't. I am still curious as to why he believes that is the case.

The problem is my lack of proofreading.

I DID mean Plane Shift. However, my misspelling led LX to respond to the Phase Shift spell, which shunts you into the near ethereal, IIRC. And I do not remember, but I don't think the Astral is conjoined with the Ethereal. That is, if things haven't changed since Planescape...


Mirror, Mirror wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Dork Lord wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to the ethereal plane?
"Why can't you go from the extra dimensional space to anywhere else provided you have the right kind of magic" is what I want to know.
You can, just cast Plane Shift. That's the right kind of magic in this case.
I thought plane shift would work too, but Lazar told me it wouldn't. I am still curious as to why he believes that is the case.

The problem is my lack of proofreading.

I DID mean Plane Shift. However, my misspelling led LX to respond to the Phase Shift spell, which shunts you into the near ethereal, IIRC. And I do not remember, but I don't think the Astral is conjoined with the Ethereal. That is, if things haven't changed since Planescape...

I miss the old Planescape planes. So much more fun than the current ones. "What do you mean the town is 3 good deeds away?" :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

[

I thought plane shift would work too, but Lazar told me it wouldn't. I am still curious as to why he believes that is the case.

The earlier thing you asked about was Phase Shift, not Plane Shift the former being an effect which uses the Ethereal Plane. Because the Ethereal Plane is very specific where it overlays, like the Material Plane. the inside of the Mansion is effectively a closed demi-plane with no access but a connection to the plane of the door (otherwise it wouldn't be much of a refuge)

Also Plane Shift has that slight targeting problem (the area uncertainty of a 500 mile radius comes to mind) And there's also the problem that there isn't a tuning fork for the Mansion, especially if one rules that each time you cast the spell, a unique new temporary plane is created. So you wouldn't be able to plane shift to it. Plane shifting OUT of it would be a GM's call.

And yes when it comes down to spellcasters, I've learned the hard way that you have be a stickler for the rules.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Ravingdork wrote:
What about teleport? Is there any (mechanical) reason that wouldn't work?

Yes. For the same reason you can't cast teleport to get to the Ethereal Plane or the Nine Hells. Teleportation doesn't cross planar boundaries.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
What about teleport? Is there any (mechanical) reason that wouldn't work?
Yes. For the same reason you can't cast teleport to get to the Ethereal Plane or the Nine Hells. Teleportation doesn't cross planar boundaries.

I have yet to see any proof that a dimensional space is also a planar boundary.


Ravingdork wrote:
I have yet to see any proof that a dimensional space is also a planar boundary.

That's EXTRA-dimensional space, and the definition of the term as well as the syntax both place it outside the current dimension (thus across a planar boundry).

HOWEVER, what if the door was open? Now that the planes are conjoined and no magic is required to cross between them, can you now teleport?


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I have yet to see any proof that a dimensional space is also a planar boundary.
That's EXTRA-dimensional space, and the definition of the term as well as the syntax both place it outside the current dimension (thus across a planar boundry).

Extra dimensional can be referring to the mathematical spacial anomaly taking place rather than saying "it's a different world." Even if I am mistaken in it's meaning, that still doesn't mean that a dimensional pocket is also a very tiny plane of existence.

The support you provided is not nearly absolute proof. Everyone who has cited that dimensional space is also a pocket plane is working on a lot of assumptions that I have yet to see in the RAW.


Ravingdork wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I have yet to see any proof that a dimensional space is also a planar boundary.
That's EXTRA-dimensional space, and the definition of the term as well as the syntax both place it outside the current dimension (thus across a planar boundry).

Extra dimensional can be referring to the mathematical spacial anomaly taking place rather than saying "it's a different world." Even if I am mistaken in it's meaning, that still doesn't mean that a dimensional pocket is also a very tiny plane of existence.

The support you provided is not nearly absolute proof. Everyone who has cited that dimensional space is also a pocket plane is working on a lot of assumptions that I have yet to see in the RAW.

Planar Handbook pg 135-Cosmology Overview

".....When you throw in the many other extradimensional spaces known as demiplanes,........

Remember Pathfinder is based off of 3.5 so the same rules apply.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

Planar Handbook pg 135-Cosmology Overview

".....When you throw in the many other extradimensional spaces known as demiplanes,........

Remember Pathfinder is based off of 3.5 so the same rules apply.

That's definitely more along the lines of what I'm looking for. Is there any similar text in Pathfinder? I know a lot of people who follow the D&D =/= Pathfinder belief.

Also, one could argue that, that statement only proves that all planes are extradimensional spaces, but not all extradimensional spaces are planes. Kind of like saying all jeeps are vehicles, but not all vehicles are jeeps. (Though I'm not necessarily arguing this point myself.)


Ravingdork wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Planar Handbook pg 135-Cosmology Overview

".....When you throw in the many other extradimensional spaces known as demiplanes,........

Remember Pathfinder is based off of 3.5 so the same rules apply.

That's definitely more along the lines of what I'm looking for. Is there any similar text in Pathfinder? I know a lot of people who follow the D&D =/= Pathfinder belief.

Also, one could argue that, that statement only proves that all planes are extradimensional spaces, but not all extradimensional spaces are planes. Kind of like saying all jeeps are vehicles, but not all vehicles are jeeps. (Though I'm not necessarily arguing this point myself.)

One of the Pathfinder Chronicles books may have planes in it, but I don't have access to any of those. It should also be noted that Pathfinder is still new, and has not had time to convert(officially) a lot of 3.5 ideas over yet.

I think there are more 3.5, and maybe even 2nd edition books with information on the issue. The mechanics between the editions has changed, but not all the fluff has.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mirror, Mirror wrote:


HOWEVER, what if the door was open? Now that the planes are conjoined and no magic is required to cross between them, can you now teleport?

It makes no difference whether the door is open or not, the space is still not adjacent to either the Ethereal nor Astral Planes, the door is essentially a mini version of the Gate spell.

Either way, no Teleport, no Dimension Door within the Mansion.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
LazarX wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:


HOWEVER, what if the door was open? Now that the planes are conjoined and no magic is required to cross between them, can you now teleport?

It makes no difference whether the door is open or not, the space is still not adjacent to either the Ethereal nor Astral Planes, the door is essentially a mini version of the Gate spell.

Either way, no Teleport, no Dimension Door within the Mansion.

According to your interpretation at least. Myself and others are still waiting on hard evidence.


Ravingdork wrote:
According to your interpretation at least. Myself and others are still waiting on hard evidence.

Yeah, there probably isn't any at this point in time, as PF and Golarion are quite new, so the DM can easily do whatever he/she wants in such a scenario.

Of course, if one of my players tried the particular approach of "Pathfinder isn't D&D, so there's no absolute proof, so I can teleport in an extra-dimensional space!", I'd tell them to take a flying leap.

But that's just me and my group.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm curious, would you guys allow someone to teleport into a bag of holding in your games? Would you let someone teleport OUT of a bag of holding? Would your answers be any different if the bag was open? Would you let someone teleport from a bag of holding, to a different part of the SAME bag of holding?

Why or why not?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
According to your interpretation at least. Myself and others are still waiting on hard evidence.

All rules are interpreted! that's why we have judges and not machines as game masters! As for hard evidence...I can't seem to find a suitable archmage in my block. I'm afraid that you're not going to be able to find a specific rules question for every idiotic cheese monkey move someone wants to try. So we have to fall back on standard rule interpretations.

3.5 stated that spells like Teleport would not function on planes that had no connection to the Astral Plane. Pathfinder has not made replication of all the SRD rules because the main book is just one rulebook, not two.

So yes at this point all we have are interpretations.

So all this thread can answer is will person A as a Judge allow you to pull off the cheesey move you want. The answers are all going to be limited to interpretations. As we don't have any real life teleportation or Mansion summoning for your "hard evidence".


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think I may have found it on my own.

Page 210 of the Pathfinder RPG says, "Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation."

Page 440 also says "Powerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fraction of a second when they teleport, or they can use it to travel between planes with spells like astral projection."

As it turns out a bag of holding (and similar items) are non-dimensional. Mage's Magnificent Mansion is an extradimensional space.

Does anybody now the difference? Teleporting might work in one, but not the other.


Ravingdork wrote:

I'm curious, would you guys allow someone to teleport into a bag of holding in your games? Would you let someone teleport OUT of a bag of holding? Would your answers be any different if the bag was open? Would you let someone teleport from a bag of holding, to a different part of the SAME bag of holding?

Why or why not?

Inside of the bag is an extra-dimensional plane or it leads to one. Regardless the inside of the bag is not a part of the material plane. My previous reference supports that.


Ravingdork wrote:

I think I may have found it on my own.

Page 210 of the Pathfinder RPG says, "Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation."

Page 440 also says "Powerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fraction of a second when they teleport, or they can use it to travel between planes with spells like astral projection."

As it turns out a bag of holding (and similar items) are non-dimensional. Mage's Magnificent Mansion is an extradimensional space.

Does anybody now the difference? Teleporting might work in one, but not the other.

The reading of the spells supports the intention of teleport is to travel anywhere within one plane. Plane Shift was intended to access different planes.

I can't and won't tell anyone how to play at home, but I can normally give supporting evidence of how things are supposed to work.


Back on topic:

Foyer (roughly the size of the cloud spells you have) with no doors other than secret doors that lead to a series of passages that had small hidden holes for LOS to the foyer. Caster wears amulet of adaptation (or equivalent magic). Stack every cloud kill you can on top of each other. Profit.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Still hoping for more ideas to make this spell even MORE fun!


Decanter of Endless Water- fill the entire mansion full of water, then dispel it.

Let's see...at 13th level, the spell produces a mansion 39,000 cubic feet volume. A Decanter of Endless Water at full power produces a flow of 5 gallons per second, or .6684 cubic feet per second.

It will take 39,000 / .6684 = 58348.2944 seconds to fill the Mansion, or 16.2079 hours. I hope the BEG brought a good book while he's waiting for you...


ericthetolle wrote:

Decanter of Endless Water- fill the entire mansion full of water, then dispel it.

Let's see...at 13th level, the spell produces a mansion 39,000 cubic feet volume. A Decanter of Endless Water at full power produces a flow of 5 gallons per second, or .6684 cubic feet per second.

It will take 39,000 / .6684 = 58348.2944 seconds to fill the Mansion, or 16.2079 hours. I hope the BEG brought a good book while he's waiting for you...

You could make a partition in the mansion so that you didn't have to fill all 39,000 cubic feet.

EDIT: DAMN YOU GREAT NECROMANCER!


Since this thread got necro recently I figure that I will put it here.

I love the idea of this thread and it is a great idea.

SRD wrote:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.

Since bag of holding is list a non dimensional space in the item description and as extra in the above I say they are the same thing.

Extra dimensional spaces are the part of the plane the are on.
Only rope trick mentions needing to be able to cross planes to effect the inside of the them.
If spells could not cross extra dimensional boundaries then one cast into or out off a created pit.
Locate object or creature will find things in a bag of holding or portable even if it is closed but not a rope trick.
One could teleport within into or out of an extra dimensional space.

I would allow any travel magic want let you get out of the mansion and those on the list could get in that way.
Not sure if "Only those you designate may enter the mansion, and the portal is shut and made invisible behind you when you enter" means through the portal or at all.

"Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond."
This could mean that it is separate plane but I think it more clarifies how the portal works. No LoE through door.
The may also mean that portal must be open to get in.


What if you had the foyer be a small room, and there is a single other secret door opened by a short and very specific dance or handshake, which has access to the midfloor.

Have the midfloor with a mechanism by which to safely open a chute to the third floor, which is a giant funnel of acid/lava. You open the chute safely from the mid floor and it begins to fill the foyer with acid or lava. Then once the bbeg in the foyer is dissolved/roasted, you can dismiss the spelll and pop out at the door location, right?

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