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So the monk's flurry of blows states that it works like two weapon fighting... which brought up several issues for me between it, and the 3.5 flurry of blows:
1. IF it works exactly like two weapon fighting then the monk will need two weapons to flurry with monk weapons. This takes a weak option and makes it even weaker. Should a monk be able to flurry with a single monk weapon?
2. In 3.5 if you flurried with an unarmed strike and power attacked you would gain full benefit at the time. How does this work in pathfinder? Would only half of the attacks be at x2 damage with the other half (roughly depending on ki expenditure and the like) be at x1 damage? Or is it all "unarmed strike" with a higher multiplier as per natural weapons? Would the simplest answer be that "unarmed strikes are light weapons and therefore only get x1 per hit"? How does that stand with unarmed strikes (for monks) being both natural and manufactured weapons (meaning most times natural weapons get a better multiplier despite being 'light' weapons).
3a. Only comes up IF the monk can flurry with a single weapon. IF he has a two handed monk weapon does he get x3 on power attacking while flurrying?
3b. Same question but with a one handed weapon.
So the monk's flurry of blows states that it works like two weapon fighting... which brought up several issues for me between it, and the 3.5 flurry of blows:
1. IF it works exactly like two weapon fighting then the monk will need two weapons to flurry with monk weapons. This takes a weak option and makes it even weaker. Should a monk be able to flurry with a single monk weapon?
2. In 3.5 if you flurried with an unarmed strike and power attacked you would gain full benefit at the time. How does this work in pathfinder? Would only half of the attacks be at x2 damage with the other half (roughly depending on ki expenditure and the like) be at x1 damage? Or is it all "unarmed strike" with a higher multiplier as per natural weapons? Would the simplest answer be that "unarmed strikes are light weapons and therefore only get x1 per hit"? How does that stand with unarmed strikes (for monks) being both natural and manufactured weapons (meaning most times natural weapons get a better multiplier despite being 'light' weapons).
3a. Only comes up IF the monk can flurry with a single weapon. IF he has a two handed monk weapon does he get x3 on power attacking while flurrying?
3b. Same question but with a one handed weapon.
1) Concerning Flurry: When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Only needs one weapon. IMO.
2) and 3) No quick answer for now. And it's sunday afernoon...
*scurries away to he cinema to see Avatar*
So the monk's flurry of blows states that it works like two weapon fighting... which brought up several issues for me between it, and the 3.5 flurry of blows:
1. IF it works exactly like two weapon fighting then the monk will need two weapons to flurry with monk weapons. This takes a weak option and makes it even weaker. Should a monk be able to flurry with a single monk weapon?
2. In 3.5 if you flurried with an unarmed strike and power attacked you would gain full benefit at the time. How does this work in pathfinder? Would only half of the attacks be at x2 damage with the other half (roughly depending on ki expenditure and the like) be at x1 damage? Or is it all "unarmed strike" with a higher multiplier as per natural weapons? Would the simplest answer be that "unarmed strikes are light weapons and therefore only get x1 per hit"? How does that stand with unarmed strikes (for monks) being both natural and manufactured weapons (meaning most times natural weapons get a better multiplier despite being 'light' weapons).
3a. Only comes up IF the monk can flurry with a single weapon. IF he has a two handed monk weapon does he get x3 on power attacking while flurrying?
3b. Same question but with a one handed weapon.
This is how I see things are (please note: take my interpretation as a humble opinion):
1) The text of the Flurry of Blows special ability says:
" Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)." (emphasis mine).
The text doesn't say that the Monk has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat while using unarmed strikes or monk special weapons; it says that he can make additional attacks with any kind of combination of unarmed strikes and/or monk special weapons. This is very different from a Ranger, for example, which has such bonus feat while wearing light, medium, or no armors, and no shields (if choosing the two-weapon combat style).
At the very worst, he could flurry with Unarmed Strikes AND one single Monk Weapon, by RAW, mixing attacks as he wants. However, I dare to say that a Monk should be able to flurry with a single monk weapon (it is a 'special' combination of attacks made with unarmed strikes and monk weapons, if you want - no attacks made with unarmed strikes at all).
You can say that a Monk makes all his attacks with the single monk weapon in the main hand, and then swaps the handling on the fly and completes the rest of the attacks with the off-hand (or switches grip with every attack).
2)The rest of the description of the Flurry of Blows attack says,
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. "
As an addition, the Unarmed Strike text says: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."
Since the text for Power Attack says that "This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.", and any attack made during a flurry of blows (by RAW) uses the Full Str bonus like a one-handed melee weapon (neither x1.5 like a two-handed, nor x0.5 like an off-hand), I am strongly convinced that such attacks use the 'one-handed' 2:1 Power Attack ratio, no more, no less.
3a and 3b) See 2.
As a final note, for what it is worth, this is the answer to a similar question in the Official 3.5 FAQ:
"Exactly how often can a monk attack with a single manufactured weapon when using the flurry of blows ability? For example, if I have a +1 alchemical silver dagger, and I’m allowed three attacks in a flurry, how many of those attacks can be dagger attacks? What if I have two daggers? How about with natural weaponry, such as a claw or bite? For example, if I have a vampire monk, can I flurry with a slam attack and drain energy multiple times from one living foe? If natural weaponry doesn’t work with a flurry, why not?
You can’t use a dagger with a flurry of blows at all. When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. Only six of the latter are included in the PH (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
If you have one (or two) special monk weapons, you can freely substitute attacks with those weapons with unarmed attacks in the flurry (see the flurry of blows description on page 46 of the PH). If you’re allowed three attacks in a flurry, and you have a +1 alchemical silver sai (or other special monk weapon), you could use the sai up to three times in the flurry. The examples given in the flurry of blows entry don’t make that completely clear because they don’t cover all the combinations of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes that are possible.
If you have two special monk weapons to use, you can use either or both of them in the flurry. For example, if you’re entitled to three attacks using flurry of blows, and you’re armed with a +1 alchemical silver sai and a cold iron sai, you can make three attacks with one sai and no attacks with the other, two attacks with one sai and one attack with the other, one attack with each sai and one unarmed attack, or any other combination of three attacks. Note that having a sai in each hand won’t prevent a monk from making unarmed attacks. A monk with her hands full can still make her full complement of unarmed strikes (see the unarmed strike entry on page 41 of the PH).
It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk weapon such as a sai or a kama. However, natural weaponry isn’t as handy as manufactured weaponry. You never get extra attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry, and the monk’s flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks from your base attack bonus. Please note that a vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and cannot drain energy."
Just my 2c.
So the monk's flurry of blows states that it works like two weapon fighting... which brought up several issues for me between it, and the 3.5 flurry of blows:
1. IF it works exactly like two weapon fighting then the monk will need two weapons to flurry with monk weapons. This takes a weak option and makes it even weaker. Should a monk be able to flurry with a single monk weapon?
Should they be able to? From a balance standpoint I would say yes.
Can they? The flurry rules are pretty clear that it is working like using TWF - so I think you need 2 weapons (even if you are using 1 weapon and unarmed attacks)
2. In 3.5 if you flurried with an unarmed strike and power attacked you would gain full benefit at the time. How does this work in pathfinder?
I believe you are supposed to get full benefit (-1/+2). The power attack feat seems to be set up to give -1/+1 for .5 Str bonus situations, -1/+2 for full Str bonus, -1/+3 for 1.5 str bonus. Since Flurry always uses full str...
3a. Only comes up IF the monk can flurry with a single weapon. IF he has a two handed monk weapon does he get x3 on power attacking while flurrying?
3b. Same question but with a one handed weapon.
Since flurry is always x1 Str bonus - I would think it's supposed to work -1/+2 on any flurry attack - regardless of off-hand/two handed weapon, just as it is for the Str bonus itself.
...snip...
Since flurry is always x1 Str bonus - I would think it's supposed to work -1/+2 on any flurry attack - regardless of off-hand/two handed weapon, just as it is for the Str bonus itself.
supposed to? heh. arguing the designers intent gets pretty murky. i'd say the power attack feat pretty clearly trips on whether you're wielding a weapon two handed for -1/+3, not how much str bonus you get with that weapon.
this doesn't make a whole lot of sense if the interpretation of two handed attacks during a flurry only getting x1 str bonus is accurate, which i'm slowly leaning towards, but as written, it seems pretty clear to me that power attack always gives +3 damage when two hand weapon wielding.
be nice if the designers made their intent known here.
while you wield a double weapon two-handed... the rules treat it as if you were wielding two weapons one-handed.
Frankly, had I my druthers, the double weapons would have been cut from the game. I blame Darth Maul.
That post was specifically in regards to Str bonus using a double weapon - but it could easily be applied to power attack as well no?
1. IF it works exactly like two weapon fighting then the monk will need two weapons to flurry with monk weapons. This takes a weak option and makes it even weaker. Should a monk be able to flurry with a single monk weapon?
Should they be able to? From a balance standpoint I would say yes.
Can they? The flurry rules are pretty clear that it is working like using TWF - so I think you need 2 weapons (even if you are using 1 weapon and unarmed attacks)
Please correct me if I'm wrong...but wouldn't that end up implying that you can't flurry with just unarmed strikes? Your body being one weapon. I think "flurry works like two weapon fighting" translates to flurry gives you one extra attack per round at your highest attack bonus, but all attacks for the round are at -2.
I also noticed that Flurry of Blows specifically excludes Natural Attacks. Is there some sort of balance issue with allowing natural attacks in a flurry? I know my first inclination was to allow them, and I was a little surprised to see them specifically excluded.
Natural attacks are not the same as unarmed attacks. The regular classes don't have "natural attacks".
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This is how I see things are (please note: take my interpretation as a humble opinion):
1) The text of the Flurry of Blows special ability says:
" Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)." (emphasis mine).The text doesn't say that the Monk has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat while using unarmed strikes or monk special weapons; it says that he can make additional attacks with any kind...
Wraith
I think your interpretation is good and well documented. Thanks a lot !I didn't know that a monk could flurry with a single weapon all alone. It looks quite good to me ! :D. My player will be quite happy to hear about it ;o)
So have we settled on a ruling on whether you can MacFlurry without a weapon?
The book says...
"any combination of unarmed
strikes or attacks with a special monk
weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff,
sai, shuriken, and siangham)
I see the "or" to mean you can MacFlurry with unarmed strikes only, or, Minky weapons only, or, any combination of the two.
If you had to have at least one weapon wouldn't it read...
"any combination of unarmed
strikes and attacks with a special monk
weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff,
sai, shuriken, and siangham)
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not sure...
So have we settled on a ruling on whether you can MacFlurry without a weapon?
The book says...
"any combination of unarmed
strikes or attacks with a special monk
weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff,
sai, shuriken, and siangham)I see the "or" to mean you can MacFlurry with unarmed strikes only, or, Minky weapons only, or, any combination of the two.
If you had to have at least one weapon wouldn't it read...
"any combination of unarmed
strikes and attacks with a special monk
weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff,
sai, shuriken, and siangham)I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not sure...
Well, as I said above, in 3.5 a Monk could 'MacFlurry' with a single weapon.
This is the text of the Flurry of Blows special ability in the 3.5 SRD:
"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired."
And this is the answer of the 3.5 FAQ about using a single monk weapon during flurry of blows:
"If you’re allowed three attacks in a flurry, and you have a +1 alchemical silver sai (or other special monk weapon), you could use the sai up to three times in the flurry. The examples given in the flurry of blows entry don’t make that completely clear because they don’t cover all the combinations of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes that are possible. "
Since the text is basically the same in Pathfinder, "he may make one additional attack using any combination of A) (unarmed strikes) or B)(attacks with a special monk weapon) " (emphasis mine), I strongly believe that a Monk can Flurry with a single Monk special weapon. As I said, at the very worst, a Monk can flurry with a combination of Unarmed attacks and a single Monk weapon.
Just my 2c.
The various sorcerer bloodlines can get Natural Weapons through claws and such. I'm just curious why the exception was called out making natural weapons ineligible to be used in a flurry.I also noticed that Flurry of Blows specifically excludes Natural Attacks. Is there some sort of balance issue with allowing natural attacks in a flurry? I know my first inclination was to allow them, and I was a little surprised to see them specifically excluded.Natural attacks are not the same as unarmed attacks. The regular classes don't have "natural attacks".
Druid Monks turning into giant octopuses to flurry with 8 natural attacks and then flurry attacks too.
(wouldn't work on a number of reasons but this completely seals the deal with an easy answer).
Doesn't flurry set your number of attacks to a number, not add additional attacks? It wouldn't matter how many natural attacks a creature had, the natural attack would just be treated like a weapon. Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't matter if the monk has 2 arms and 2 legs, or 36 tentacles, the number of attacks allowed by flurry of blows is set by the flurry of blows ability.
Indeed one of those "other" reasons I was mentioning but didn't go into detail over.
There would also be an issue with a monk with a natural weapon flurrying with say his feet, using the Gorgon's feats (I don't remember the exact names and orders on those three for some reason) Ki and Haste for extra attacks (being liberal here some allow some don't bear with me) and then asking for his extra attack with his natural weapon as a 'secondary' attack.
So you could have 7 attacks +1 Ki + 2 feat + 1 haste + 1 natural or 12 attacks.
While you could still get those first 11, that last one won't happen now.
for my money I would let a monk flurry with one weapon. It is called "flurry" after all. But then I did play a lot of streetfigher growing up. E. Honda and Chun Li made their impression, I guess.
I suppose my previous post didn't come out as a question, but it was, so my question is: are my assumptions correct?
Monk FOB = +4/+4/-1
Sorc = +3Total = +7/+7/+2
err you cannot twf and fob at the same time.
Sor 6 / monk 6 w/TWF and flurrying with light monk weapons or unarmed strikes, whichever way he chooses:
* Monk BAB = lvl = +6/+6/+1, but penalty for flurrying yields BAB of +4/+4/-1
* Sor BAB = +3
* Penalty for extra TWF-attack: -2
* Result (I think): +5/+5/+5/+0 (pri/FoB/sec/pri2 – since the Sor BAB is added afterwords)
This monk would have attacks of +7/+7/+2 (before factoring in any bonuses to attack. That's based on looking at the flurry of a 6th level monk (+4/+4/-1, with an effective BAB of +6), and adding the sorcerer's +3 to it. If the character had a BAB from other classes of +5 instead of +3, it would become +9/+9/+4/-1, because his effective BAB of +11 gives him an extra iterative attack.
err you cannot twf and fob at the same time.
That's the biggest change they made to flurry from 3.5 to PF. In 3.5, you expressly could FOB and TWF with your unarmed attacks, leading to monks getting their extra two flurry attacks PLUS three from TWF. I built a 20th-level monk once that had an attack sequence of +13/+13/+13/+13*/+8/+8*/+3/+3* before bonuses (*'ed attacks are from TWF). In Pathfinder, it caps out at +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 no matter what. Basically the same sequence, except the first two attacks are more likely to hit, and you lose the 8th.
So what you're saying is that the rules specifically rule out adding that extra attack for TWF in PF?
Exactly.
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Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type....hold the thought....
After some perusing, I've come to the conclusion that this interpretation is indeed correct, and also that....Spoiler:As I interpret this rule, you choose to add an extra attack at the expense of accuracy, and therefore incur a -2 penalty on your hits.Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
(…)
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
When fighting two-handed (for the monk, since his limbs are lethal weapons, two-handed means armed or unarmed), you get one extra attack during the round.
- Without having the TWF feat, this would, when fighting as an unarmed monk of first level give an attack sequence of -4/-8.
- With the TWF feat, it would be -2/-2.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attackNormal FoB-attack: -1/-1 (BAB = monk's level of 1)
TWF and FoB, without having TWF feat: -5/-5/-9
TWF and FoB, with TWF-feat: -3/-3/-3x = primary attack, x = extra FoB-attack, x = secondary attack
As far as I can see, this does not in any way contradict the rules. The phrase "When doing so he may make one additional attack (…) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" is merely a reference to which mechanics have been applied, and does not state that he is now considered to be "TWF-fighting". He's therefore incurred a penalty-2.
The idea of flurry of blows is simply that you attack really-really super-fast, thus loosing accuracy, but still getting a chance to land one extra strike. The monk is therefore incurred another penalty of -2.
So what you're saying is that the rules specifically rule out adding that extra attack for TWF in PF?
....whomever is telling you that is wrong.
I base my conclusion on two main points:
1) Lack of disallowing statements in the relevant text passages through the 4th printing of the CRB, and the lack of clear and unambiguous rulings (i.e., FAQs) here in the forums.
2) FoB + TWF does not violate the no-stacking rules because, despite referential wording (i.e., "...as if using..."), they produce different effects and have different limitations. (For instance, the way strength bonuses to damage are applied is different)
Therefore, a less-than-6th-level monk with the TWF feat should be able to make three attacks, but his penalties are going to be pretty severe.
Test case: a 2nd-level fighter/monk with STR:18 and DEX:15 has TWF. He flurry/TWFs with (1) a longsword, (2) a kukri, and (3) an unarmed strike (anything except a hand attack). (Note that the flurry rules do not state that the monk must use monk weapons or unarmed strikes for all attacks made during a full-attack sequence, just that the flurry-granted one must be.)
attack bonuses: STR: +4, BAB: +1, Flurry BAB: +2
att: longsword +1, kukri +2, non-hand unarmed strike +2.
dmg, if all hits: [d8+4(longsword)] + [d4+2(kukri, damage nerfed by TWF even though normally eligible for full STR bonus if flurrying sans TWF)] + [d6+4(flurry kick)] = ~19.5
Comparison: 2nd-level barbarian Power Attacking with greatsword, BAB +2 with raging STR of 22:
att: greatsword (+8-1PA) = +7
dmg: 2d6+9+3 = ~19
Conclusion: a TWF/Flurrying low-level monk needs to connect with all of his attacks to merely equal what a barbarian can do in a single chop, and will be mad-statted and with adjusted attack values an appalling -5 behind the barbarian.
Therefore: let 'em do it -- because it's a vicious uphill struggle just to catch up.