I suppose the druid would pose the same problem then? They have an animal companion as well as full casting and wildshape. The summoner gets a souped up companion but has neither full casting nor wildshape. Only together are they a PC-level threat to monsters and villains. Two creatures is equal to CR (each) + 2, and so the eidolon and the summoner should individually be equivalent to a character of their level -2. This is about how they stack up, so in my opinion the class is balanced just fine. Also, why are you using an eidolon to set off traps? This just leads to a dead eidolon, thus greatly reducing the power of the summoner, and its not like a wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid could not do the same thing with summoned creatures.
Also, the knight and scout are already roles that can be filled by existing characters. The cavalier fills the role of mounted warrior with challenge abilities to increase his combat usefulness (it is even called the same thing). The scout is no longer even necessary because it was introduced primarily because archery was so useless in 3.5, and scout let archers be useful for a change. Now that this has been corrected, (thank you Piazo) the scout is not really necessary, as a ranger or rogue can duplicate the scout's former role.
Lets have some more non spell casting charcters. Like a knight, or a scout, someing like those.
yes!!! A Noble class please
I suppose the druid would pose the same problem then? They have an animal companion as well as full casting and wildshape. The summoner gets a souped up companion but has neither full casting nor wildshape. Only together are they a PC-level threat to monsters and villains. Two creatures is equal to CR (each) + 2, and so the eidolon and the summoner should individually be equivalent to a character of their level -2. This is about how they stack up, so in my opinion the class is balanced just fine. Also, why are you using an eidolon to set off traps? This just leads to a dead eidolon, thus greatly reducing the power of the summoner, and its not like a wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid could not do the same thing with summoned creatures.
Also, the knight and scout are already roles that can be filled by existing characters. The cavalier fills the role of mounted warrior with challenge abilities to increase his combat usefulness (it is even called the same thing). The scout is no longer even necessary because it was introduced primarily because archery was so useless in 3.5, and scout let archers be useful for a change. Now that this has been corrected, (thank you Piazo) the scout is not really necessary, as a ranger or rogue can duplicate the scout's former role.
+1 everything you just said, you hit it right on there
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Mr. Pelletier, I afraid that my playtesting through four PFS modules has not shown the Eidolon and Summoner to be particularly unbalanced. Everything that you object to is quite easily replicated by other classes. Ellipsis notes similarities between the Eidolon and Animal Companion so nothing game breaking there. A decent Conjuror could have a summoned monster set off traps for you. Hell, I've had a party just toss about slain goblins to set off all the trap in a room. And why would a party drop a Rogue because traps can be set off by something else? The Rogue can disable them without killing the Eidolon, which the Summoner would then lose for the day. The Rogue also has more abilities than just trap finding. The tremendous number of skills are very useful fulfilling numerous other functions without even pointing out the great damage that they can deal.
I'm sorry that your party is willfully abusive of the rules but I think its a mistake to nerf a class based on what a minority of players will do to it.
I think if a class has obvious abusable loopholes it's the game designer's job to correct those as best they can.
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I think if a class has obvious abusable loopholes it's the game designer's job to correct those as best they can.
The problem is that anything with sufficient versatility can be be abused by someone willing to do it. Why should players on the whole be punished and lose some of that versatility because of some crappy thing that a minority of players will do.
This is not an issue for the developers (well the items situation is), but rather an issue for players and their DM.
I would suggest the following:
Pounce be raised to 2 points.
Energy Attack be limited to one form of attack (bite or claw) or cost extra for all attacks.
But REALLY looking forward for the book. Too bad it won't be out for a while.
I think if a class has obvious abusable loopholes it's the game designer's job to correct those as best they can.The problem is that anything with sufficient versatility can be be abused by someone willing to do it. Why should players on the whole be punished and lose some of that versatility because of some crappy thing that a minority of players will do.
This is not an issue for the developers (well the items situation is), but rather an issue for players and their DM.
Any class can be broken with effort. Fraust was referring to things that were so easy to break that they are inherently broken.
which was the point of posting em up, a 1000 pair of eyes looking over this stuff finds the big loopholes easy, heh giving the class to your most powergaming player tends to find some others you have not noticed yet
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Any class can be broken with effort. Fraust was referring to things that were so easy to break that they are inherently broken.
Yeah, pounce is under priced. Energy attacks depends a lot on what happens with items. If all items become banned then it might be under priced. If Eidolons can use weapons then I think its priced right for an alternative to using weapons.
Any class can be broken with effort. Fraust was referring to things that were so easy to break that they are inherently broken.
Yeah, pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
Also, a player wants to have an effective character. A person of x level of skill at optimizing characters will make an x level of optimization fighter. That same person will make an x+y level of optimized summoner, where y is the multiplier based on eidolon loop holes. Basically, it's stupid easy to make a scary eidolon...and yes, as far as I'm concerned, that's an issue with the developers.
Yes, this is why there's the playtest. This is why it's good to show the developers that there are several issues with the rules as presented.
Eidolon equal to an animal companion? Really? Sure, you can make an eidolon as weak as an animal companion of apropriate level, but the versatility alone makes eidolons better than animal companions, because you can make precisely what you need with it.
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Eidolon equal to an animal companion? Really? Sure, you can make an eidolon as weak as an animal companion of apropriate level, but the versatility alone makes eidolons better than animal companions, because you can make precisely what you need with it.
Exactly. Isn't that the beauty of it? You can make it anyway you want it!
People keep saying that this is as powerful as a fighter.
So? Isn't that the point? You don't fight, your Eidolon does. How cool is that?
I question if you've actually seen this class at work in your game as a character. This is what makes me say it isn't more powerful than an animal companion, because it's really not. At least, that is how it's worked in my games. Yours might be different.
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Perhaps the wrong place to post this, but the Summoner and Eidolon in my RotRL game hasn't caused any problems. But I can see where some people are coming from about the power of the Eidolon and summon monster ability. At one point she did create a small but effective army when she and the partys monk were the last characters standing in the Skinsaw Murders.
So here some ideas I had during last nights game. Drop the Summoner to a D6. Musch like the druid allow the summoner to choose from two abilites. They either get their Eidolon or they can choose to have the the summon monster ability (also I see no problem at this point why they shouldn't have this at a 1 minute per level).
You can only have one SLA active at a time now which should end the army issue. It also is now a full round action and no longer as the 1 min a level duration
Eidolon equal to an animal companion? Really? Sure, you can make an eidolon as weak as an animal companion of apropriate level, but the versatility alone makes eidolons better than animal companions, because you can make precisely what you need with it.Exactly. Isn't that the beauty of it? You can make it anyway you want it!
People keep saying that this is as powerful as a fighter.
So? Isn't that the point? You don't fight, your Eidolon does. How cool is that?
I question if you've actually seen this class at work in your game as a character. This is what makes me say it isn't more powerful than an animal companion, because it's really not. At least, that is how it's worked in my games. Yours might be different.
You can't just go by your games. Did you see the examples where it is making 5 + attacks around with energy added, and pouncing? Pounce was a major contributor to making the 3.5 barbarian able to solo encounters.
There is a thread of nothing but Eidolon builds if you need to view some.
I do have a player that will be playing one soon, but his building skills are suspect.
PS: If your player's Eidolon is not better than an animal companion he/she is not trying to make it any better(at fighting) or is not good at making characters.
PSS: I have done a playtest based on a build found on here, and the class works as boss character while only being 2CR's above the party level. Normally for a level 7 a dangerous fight will be a CR 10 or 11.
I know combat is not everything, but between the summoner and the Eidolon they can utility with spells and skills.
All of the posts do is prove that no one has actually used them yet. I challenge people to ACTUALLY test these NOT in situational tests but in the games themselves. I think people will find that what they think is awesome powerful is really no more powerful than a fighter.
Wow, what an arrogant reply. Any tests that disagree with you aren't actually tests? Get a grip, man.
All of the posts do is prove that no one has actually used them yet. I challenge people to ACTUALLY test these NOT in situational tests but in the games themselves. I think people will find that what they think is awesome powerful is really no more powerful than a fighter.
I have actually tested them. I even posted the results round for round on these boards. I even used a spell twice(accidentally), and the party still lost to the summoner. They did not lose by much but they lost. Two other players had a PbP contest, that came up to be about 50/50. They were tested at long range, mid range, and short range. Either you are in combat, and you are out of combat. Nobody is complaining about the out of combat scenarios. The in combat ones were the issue.
There are post of them from actual games, and not just fights. The results also came back with the Eidolon being more powerful than they would like. All you have to do is take your time to find them.
PS: Would you mind posting your player's build, and your account of what happened? If you are going to call us out for not doing things to your liking then you should bring something to the table.
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PS: Would you mind posting your player's build, and your account of what happened? If you are going to call us out for not doing things to your liking then you should bring something to the table.
Certainly. Also, I'd like to apologize if my previous posts were...shmuckish. It was not my intent.
I also have an 8th level playtest that is more relevant, and I will put it up tomorrow.
Edit: Is there anywhere I can upload the character sheet? My player used one of those awesome sheets where you can fill out the info on the .pdf.
PS: Would you mind posting your player's build, and your account of what happened? If you are going to call us out for not doing things to your liking then you should bring something to the table.Certainly. Also, I'd like to apologize if my previous posts were...shmuckish. It was not my intent.
I also have an 8th level playtest that is more relevant, and I will put it up tomorrow.
Edit: Is there anywhere I can upload the character sheet? My player used one of those awesome sheets where you can fill out the info on the .pdf.
There are other website that let you upload stuff for free. You can then set the permissions to public view, and post a link to it. I have just woken up, and so the only one I can recall is scribd.com.
My first impression just looking at the class was that things seemed not too unbalanced. After having DMed a group that has a summoner in it, I am of the opinion that they are more powerful than they should be. Not outright gawdaweful broken cheese...
What I mean by the animal companion/eidolon thing, is you can get an animal companion that does mostly what you want, though not every skill point/feat/ability is what you're looking for...with an eidolon, that really isn't going to happen. They become precisely what you want/need. Which, yes, is great. But quite a bit better. Hence the eidolon needs to be looked at very carefully, realizing that they are significantly better than an animal companion. Which is why I had to laugh when someone said they were as good.