|
I have been thoroughly reading through the Alchemist and Inquisitor and though I missed out on biweekly PF Society this week at my local game store I plan on making an Alchemist in the near future.
Now with the way the Society works the Cha Damage won't be a problem as it is resolved at the end of the session (unless there's some post combat Dip checks or the like). But I can see it being a problem in the long term home campaigns where adventures may take place over several days. Rolling a 1 isn't a huge problem since it's gone the next day. Rolling a 4, however, results in a penalty the duration of which means the alchemist isn't using mutagen again for a few days.
With the list of Formulae including things like shield, bull's strength, transformation, true strike, and other such combat effective abilities it definitely seems like a Mr. Hyde/Hulk genetic combat monster is a viable build but the cumulative penalties of doing this measure in days where as the boon is measured in minutes.
I can see the penalty being there for flavor reasons. I can also see it there to keep the Alchemist from doing it every encounter. But making it a potentially twice a week (game time) seems a bit much.
I'm wondering how and why the 1d4 Cha damage was decided as a penalty for something that lasts 10min at level 1. Mechanically it seems out of theme. I would rather it be something more like the fatigue due to Barbarian's Rage.
Mutagens don't seem as potent as Rage to me but the penalties for Mutagens are far magnified. The duration is longer but the Ability & Nat. Armor Bonus is likely only relevant for 1 encounter maybe 2 at higher level depending on spacing. Whereas a Barbarian can turn off a rage at the end of an encounter and use it again for the next one considering he waited around for 2x the 6 seconds in a round he was raging. The fatigue rarely gets in the way of encounters and at worse means the party has to wait around for a bit. Mutagens mean rushing to the next one to ensure the effect is still on and potentially waiting days until the character is reset to it's default.
You've made some interesting points.
One thing I'd like to point out myself is that, more than likely, the Alchemist is not going to be brewing a new mutagen in the "field". With a one hour creation time on mutagens and I'm assuming you still require the full alchemist lab equipment set-up to produce it, this is unlikely.
Even if you roll a "4" on your charisma damage, your party healer can still apply the effects of long term care allowing your to recover 2 points of charisma per day of recovery for a total of 2 days needed.
As soon as Lesser Restoration becomes available you gain the ability to recover ability damage rapidly indeed.
|
curious on the out of theme concept, guy drinks something and makes him stronger, faster, tougher and it doesnt fit for you to have the chemical to cause him change slightly ie mutate
I agree it doesnt fit the typical character ability design, but then I think they were doing this in order to give the jekyl and hyde thing which is quite clearly a theme.
I think a 1D3 would be better but then I have bias against D4s. I hate those dice! Stepped on them a few too many times I guess. A 1D3 though seems more reasonable though.
|
|
My question is, why not just give a -4 to Charisma while the duration lasts, like a Barbarian gets a -2 to AC while raging? Or maybe a -4 Charisma, -2 Wisdom? I'm thinking that the mutagen's negative would look something like in the Looney Tune short "Hyde and Hare" or "Hyde and go Tweet". Or like the Hulk.
Hyde and Hare
Hyde and go Tweet
If you drank a Mutagen, you couldn't undo the effects and would have to wait till they wore off, making the negatives pretty severe if you walked back into town.
I don't see it as a problem myself. Assuming the alchemist has an averagish charisma of 10 he would have to have the opportunity to quaff several a day or one everyday for a number of days before it really becomes a problem. Any decent length of inactivity, non-use of the mutagen, or anyone with lesser restoration (alchemists can have it at 4th) to help out completely negates the charisma damage. The charisma damage is really only a problem for 1st-3rd level dwarven alchemists who use charisma as thier dump stat, maybe in that case its better to focus on bombs and drink less mutagen.
My question is, why not just give a -4 to Charisma while the duration lasts, like a Barbarian gets a -2 to AC while raging? Or maybe a -4 Charisma, -2 Wisdom? I'm thinking that the mutagen's negative would look something like in the Looney Tune short "Hyde and Hare" or "Hyde and go Tweet". Or like the Hulk.
I tend to agree with this sentiment/ approach.
Further, it makes sense to have one set of penalties DURING the "Mr. Hyde" phase, and another set of penalties akin to "Fatigue" after this phase is ended (that wears off/ recovers eventually).Really, a conceptual merging of Barbarian Rage with Wildshape seems perfect to me.
As I've put in a different thread, the charisma damage is pretty irrelevant when alchemists can brew potions of lesser restoration starting at level 4. Chase the mutagen with restoration and you're back to normal, no problem.
That actually bothers me. I'd vote to make the damage 'permanent' at least until the mutagen wears off, then treatable with normal restoration-type magic. If an alchemist chooses to break every couple of hours to brew up a new batch of mutagen, I'd like to at least tax the party's resources keeping his charisma out of the pit. I like the theoretical danger of alchemists dosing themselves into a coma - its a control factor rather like a daily limit, but much more flavorful.
Of course, you could just put in a daily limit, then go with the barbarian-type penalties you guys are talking about. But as the alchemist goes right now, he's like a barbarian who can rage for hundreds of rounds per day, as long as he gets sufficient breaks between bouts. Temporary penalties just wont control that effectively.
As I've put in a different thread, the charisma damage is pretty irrelevant when alchemists can brew potions of lesser restoration starting at level 4. Chase the mutagen with restoration and you're back to normal, no problem.
That actually bothers me. I'd vote to make the damage 'permanent' at least until the mutagen wears off, then treatable with normal restoration-type magic. If an alchemist chooses to break every couple of hours to brew up a new batch of mutagen, I'd like to at least tax the party's resources keeping his charisma out of the pit. I like the theoretical danger of alchemists dosing themselves into a coma.
But it creates a game balance issue. Major class features should not deal permanent damage, especially not to an ability score. There is no reason the Charisma penalty is damage. At worst, it should wear off 10 minutes after the effects of the mutagen do. And yes, I'm aware that it's damage, and therefore semi-permanent, and that lesser restoration extracts are available, but I shouldn't have to work around the penalties using one of my major class features to make up for the bad design contained in another one.
Of course, you could just put in a daily limit, then go with the barbarian-type penalties you guys are talking about. But as the alchemist goes right now, he's like a barbarian who can rage for hundreds of rounds per day, as long as he gets sufficient breaks between bouts. Temporary penalties just wont control that effectively.
Yeah, he can pseudo-rage a lot. He also has mid-BAB, a d8 HD, and actually requires some of his mental skills. Sorry, but he's just not affecting combat the same way a barbarian will, even buffed out.
Yeah, he can pseudo-rage a lot. He also has mid-BAB, a d8 HD, and actually requires some of his mental skills. Sorry, but he's just not affecting combat the same way a barbarian will, even buffed out.
It's still an unlimited-use, powerful class ability. Hey, while we're at it, lets let wizards and clerics re-memorize their lower level spells during the day, and shoot, let that paladin recover his smites and lay on hands if he takes a break.
I'm fine with putting a 1/day limit, and then just doing a "while mutagen'd up, the alchemist takes a -4 penalty to charisma, and afterwards he is fatigued for 10 minutes" deal. Stuff like this without limits is exactly the sort of thing PF has been good about controlling. I like my more colorful solution, but I'll be the first to admit it's not very clean. Rage penalties make more sense, but only after there's some other control on the ability.
It's still an unlimited-use, powerful class ability.
Paying 1,000gp and 2 Int damage doesn't really lead to an unlimited ability...
And unless you use one of your precious discoveries you only get one dose unless you can find an hour to rebrew.
And powerful this ability is not. Just compare it to normal Wildshape. With a mutagen right now you get +2 to a stat and +2 armor until 12th level.
Paying 1,000gp and 2 Int damage doesn't really lead to an unlimited ability...
And unless you use one of your precious discoveries you only get one dose unless you can find an hour to rebrew.
And powerful this ability is not. Just compare it to normal Wildshape. With a mutagen right now you get +2 to a stat and +2 armor until 12th level.
Okay, you're right; as currently designed, the mutagen is pathetically weak at all levels. It's benefits are so trivialized by comparatively cheap magic items and low-level spells that I can't actually imagine an alchemist wanting to specialize in mutagens as they currently work.
However, on the rather safe assumption that the ability *does* get improved (provides an alchemical bonus, provides greater bonuses, provides earlier bonuses, whatever) then the control scheme needs revision.
An hour to rebrew is, to many groups, nothing. It takes a wizard or cleric an hour to memorize spells every morning, which can be done once per day to limit their power. A barbarian can only rage so many rounds per day to limit her power. Every other alchemist ability can only be used so many times per day to limit his power.
Basically, to neglect control on the power is to render the significance of it's duration moot. Alchemist adventures while mutagen is up, then breaks when it goes down to rebrew it. I don't care if it's not game-breakingly powerful, its senseless and creates some of the dumbest mid-adventure rules tension I can conceive of.
It takes a wizard or cleric an hour to memorize spells every morning, which can be done once per day to limit their power.
Nitpick: This is not true. A wizard or cleric can leave as many unprepared spells as they want and prepare them during the day (1 minute per spell level, minimum of 15 minutes spent).
Even more nitpickier nitpick: Neither wizards nor clerics memorize spells. They prepare them. No class has memorized spells since 3.0.
For mutagens, I think the alchemist should make some kind of a Fortitude save; if he succeeds, he gains the benefit without the Charisma penalty, if he fails, he gains a penalty to Charisma (not damage or drain). Maybe damage if it is a natural 1. If it is a Natural 20 on the save, maybe some kind of bonus effect, like an additional +2 to Str, Dex, Natural Armor, whatever.
EDIT:
I still think the mutagens should be mechanically similar to a binder's vestige. 24 hour duration, a check to see if there is a negative consequence, and more variety to the powers (but themetically linked).
I like the charisma damage. It feels like the alchemist is actually doing damage by drinking this stuff.
One problem I have is that if you built a mutagen junkie character, focusing all your discoveries on them, only to hit level 20 and take the grand mutagen ability... which requires none of the other mutagen discoveries up to that point. which means some of their discoveries end up in the proverbial can. Doesn't seem fair for a character whose mutagens only did +2 to one ability score for his entire career to suddenly break out with an OMG SUPER MUTAGEN RAAAR! at 20th.
One problem I have is that if you built a mutagen junkie character, focusing all your discoveries on them, only to hit level 20 and take the grand mutagen ability... which requires none of the other mutagen discoveries up to that point. which means some of their discoveries end up in the proverbial can. Doesn't seem fair for a character whose mutagens only did +2 to one ability score for his entire career to suddenly break out with an OMG SUPER MUTAGEN RAAAR! at 20th.
I noticed that myself. I'd say the majority of games that take place at level 20 your character is generated at level 20 and as such would be able to use all 4 discoveries for whatever the heck they wanted to supplement getting the True Mutagen ability without any of the build up.
|
I would suggest either make the CHA dmg temp like fatigue or make Mutagens permanent mods to make a class that becomes an intelligent Monster as to the flavor of the player. 1 Alchemist becoming a Mr. Hyde strong and toughman and another becoming a Rune inscribed skinned antimage, or even one becoming a part dragon part wolf monster freedom fighter.