My Mount The Eidolon


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


I have created a character that rides her eidolon like a mount. she has ranks in ride, she has mounted combat, and ride-by attack. he has dodge, mobility and spring attack. with both ride-by attack and spring attack, can he run, attack, and while he's running by i attack? or am i wasting some feats?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You should pick up Spirited Charge and get Pounce for the mount. I have always preferred the charge over the ride-by-attack.

The maps in my games typicly don't have enough room to use ride-by very often. There will always be an opportunity for a charge.

Now if your mount is a flyer then that is a great combo.


I think that's a reasonable interpretation of the rules. I think ride-by attack was designed for a mount that just serves as an alternate means of movement rather than something that attacks as well, but with these feat selections I don't see why your scenario wouldn't work.

Now if your eidolon is also able to trip while part of the attack, this combo could start to get pretty nasty.


Eric Stipe wrote:
I have created a character that rides her eidolon like a mount. she has ranks in ride, she has mounted combat, and ride-by attack. he has dodge, mobility and spring attack. with both ride-by attack and spring attack, can he run, attack, and while he's running by i attack? or am i wasting some feats?

That's what I did for my mount, though I took Flyby attack since my eidolon mount has wings.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nice idea but what are you going to do when it comes to the tight corners of a dungeon? You can only do the dismiss/summon thing once per day after all.


Eric Stipe wrote:
I have created a character that rides her eidolon like a mount. she has ranks in ride, she has mounted combat, and ride-by attack. he has dodge, mobility and spring attack. with both ride-by attack and spring attack, can he run, attack, and while he's running by i attack? or am i wasting some feats?

No. Ride-by Attack only works when you charge, and Spring Attack doesn't work with a charge.


dulsin wrote:

You should pick up Spirited Charge and get Pounce for the mount. I have always preferred the charge over the ride-by-attack.

The maps in my games typicly don't have enough room to use ride-by very often. There will always be an opportunity for a charge.

Now if your mount is a flyer then that is a great combo.

i'd take pounce if it had claws, i chose to increase it's int (for the skill points) over claws so it only has a bite attack. once it has more points i'll take the claws, and pounce.

Dal Selpher wrote:

I think that's a reasonable interpretation of the rules. I think ride-by attack was designed for a mount that just serves as an alternate means of movement rather than something that attacks as well, but with these feat selections I don't see why your scenario wouldn't work.

Now if your eidolon is also able to trip while part of the attack, this combo could start to get pretty nasty.

oh, it has trip, it's basically a giant wolf type creature that i ride.
Zurai wrote:
No. Ride-by Attack only works when you charge, and Spring Attack doesn't work with a charge.

ok, if i only move it's normal move (40') and only move in a straight line... and don't break any of the other rules of the feats would it work? ride-by attack counts as a charge, and you can move up to double your move. spring attack, just counts as normal movement and you can move up to your normal move. i don't see why it wouldn't work, please tell me... i was hoping for a official ruling. i may have to leave it up to my DM.

LazarX wrote:
Nice idea but what are you going to do when it comes to the tight corners of a dungeon? You can only do the dismiss/summon thing once per day after all.

i'm not worried about it, for the most part making this work is only important in space i can move. i took a level of barbarian so i have some good combat abilities also, and can for the most part keep up with my eidolon.


LazarX wrote:
Nice idea but what are you going to do when it comes to the tight corners of a dungeon? You can only do the dismiss/summon thing once per day after all.

The eidolon is medium, so a small creature (gnome, halfling) can ride it as a mount no problem, with virtually no issues.

My gnome, who thinks he is a Paladin, is doing just this. As an aside, those new Vigil feats in Cities of Golarion are just delicious for mounted antics.

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Eric Stipe wrote:
Zurai wrote:
No. Ride-by Attack only works when you charge, and Spring Attack doesn't work with a charge.
ok, if i only move it's normal move (40') and only move in a straight line... and don't break any of the other rules of the feats would it work? ride-by attack counts as a charge, and you can move up to double your move. spring attack, just counts as normal movement and you can move up to your normal move. i don't see why it wouldn't work, please tell me... i was hoping for a official ruling. i may have to leave it up to my DM.

Zurai is right.

Ride-by-attack only works on a charge:

prd wrote:
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.

Charge is a special full-round action described as:

prd wrote:

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

All emphasis is mine. Since Ride-by-attack only lets you attack, the mount would essentially be making a normal charge attack, which isn't possible with spring attack (spring attack doesn't specify that you can charge and then keep moving, unlike ride-by-attack). My suggestion would be to get pounce on the mount and get spirited charge. This will let you do a ton of damage to the enemy before he even has a chance to get up from your trip attempt.


Alizor wrote:
My suggestion would be to get pounce on the mount and get spirited charge. This will let you do a ton of damage to the enemy before he even has a...

why would i want pounce, the eidolon only has one attack?

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Eric Stipe wrote:
Alizor wrote:
My suggestion would be to get pounce on the mount and get spirited charge. This will let you do a ton of damage to the enemy before he even has a...
why would i want pounce, the eidolon only has one attack?

The assumption would be that you spend the one or two points for claws. If however you don't, then don't get pounce and you'll simply have to live with a ride-by-attack and only your character getting an attack. It's up to you whether you would rather spend the points on skill points or combat options.


So I talked to the DM. I told him all that transpired here. He said for a total of 5 feats (3 from the Eidolon, and 2 for me) that I can pull my move off. as long as i move no more than 40' on the eidolon and suffer the benefits and penalties of charging, i can ride by attack/spring attack a target. :)

The Exchange

Eric Stipe wrote:
So I talked to the DM. I told him all that transpired here. He said for a total of 5 feats (3 from the Eidolon, and 2 for me) that I can pull my move off. as long as i move no more than 40' on the eidolon and suffer the benefits and penalties of charging, i can ride by attack/spring attack a target. :)

I'm surprised he doesn't let you fly, and shoot arrows out of your nose.

It is 5 feats after all....


cp wrote:

I'm surprised he doesn't let you fly, and shoot arrows out of your nose.

It is 5 feats after all....

What feat lets you shoot arrows out of your nose?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

QOShea wrote:
What feat lets you shoot arrows out of your nose?

Point Blank Snot.


QOShea wrote:
cp wrote:

I'm surprised he doesn't let you fly, and shoot arrows out of your nose.

It is 5 feats after all....
What feat lets you shoot arrows out of your nose?

What feat lets you use Spring Attack and Ride-By-Attack simultaneously?

The answer to both is "no such feat exists".


Epic Meepo wrote:
QOShea wrote:
What feat lets you shoot arrows out of your nose?
Point Blank Snot.

Well done! That little quip made my morning brighter.


Zurai wrote:

What feat lets you use Spring Attack and Ride-By-Attack simultaneously?

The answer to both is "no such feat exists".

I didn't know you needed a feat to use other feats at the same time? can you use weapon focus and weapon specialization at the same time, or do you need a special feat?


Eric Stipe wrote:
Zurai wrote:

What feat lets you use Spring Attack and Ride-By-Attack simultaneously?

The answer to both is "no such feat exists".

I didn't know you needed a feat to use other feats at the same time? can you use weapon focus and weapon specialization at the same time, or do you need a special feat?

When one feat requires that you charge and the other feat requires that you do not charge, you need something to let them both operate at the same time.


Zurai wrote:
When one feat requires that you charge and the other feat requires that you do not charge, you need something to let them both operate at the same time.

Still not sure where it says that.

Spring Attack (Combat)
Benefit: You can move up to your speed and make a
single melee attack without provoking any attacks of
opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move
both before and after the attack, but you must move at
least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that
you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot
use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the
start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.

Ride-By Attack (Combat)
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge
action, you may move and attack as if with a standard
charge and then move again (continuing the straight line
of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t
exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount
do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent
that you attack.

here are the feats, ride-by uses a charge, the other doesn't, the other limits movement, to normal move, the other limits it to double. why would i need a feat if i meet all the requirements.

i really do want a valid reason, currently i would say it's a dm call, i would allow it, as did my dm. if you and yours do not i have no reason to say other wise.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think there was some confusion. If I understand you correctly, your mount is using spring attack as it goes past. You, the rider, is using ride-by attack as your mount goes past on it's spring attack?

If that's correct, I don't see any reason the two feats can't be used at the same time. It's two different creatures using the feats, not one person using both.


mdt wrote:

I think there was some confusion. If I understand you correctly, your mount is using spring attack as it goes past. You, the rider, is using ride-by attack as your mount goes past on it's spring attack?

If that's correct, I don't see any reason the two feats can't be used at the same time. It's two different creatures using the feats, not one person using both.

That's my thought. Thank you.


mdt wrote:
It's two different creatures using the feats, not one person using both.

This is completely irrelevant.

The reason that Spring Attack and Ride-By Attack cannot both be used in the same action is that Spring Attack is used in place of a charge, while Ride-By Attack is used only when you charge. You cannot both charge and not-charge at the same time. Spring Attack is a charge replacement -- it allows you to move and make a single melee attack, but instead of the +2 to hit -2 to AC, you can move before and after the attack and don't provoke AoOs. It takes the exact same "action space" as a charge (a move action and a standard action), but is not in itself a charge. You cannot use both a charge and a Spring Attack because you'd have to have a full-round action, a move action, AND a standard action to do so (and you wouldn't meet the "must be at least 10' away" requirement on both charges and SA after the first one went off, anyway).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zurai wrote:
mdt wrote:
It's two different creatures using the feats, not one person using both.

This is completely irrelevant.

The reason that Spring Attack and Ride-By Attack cannot both be used in the same action is that Spring Attack is used in place of a charge, while Ride-By Attack is used only when you charge. You cannot both charge and not-charge at the same time. Spring Attack is a charge replacement -- it allows you to move and make a single melee attack, but instead of the +2 to hit -2 to AC, you can move before and after the attack and don't provoke AoOs. It takes the exact same "action space" as a charge (a move action and a standard action), but is not in itself a charge. You cannot use both a charge and a Spring Attack because you'd have to have a full-round action, a move action, AND a standard action to do so (and you wouldn't meet the "must be at least 10' away" requirement on both charges and SA after the first one went off, anyway).

I'm afraid I don't quite see what your point is. The creature, the mount, is making a full move past the target. As he moves past, he is taking an attack as a spring attack.

His rider is using a free action to control his mount with Ride, telling him to do so. To the rider this is a charge attack because the mount is moving to the target and beyond. The rider can't tell the difference, and therefore the rider uses a different attack, Ride By.


mdt wrote:

I'm afraid I don't quite see what your point is. The creature, the mount, is making a full move past the target. As he moves past, he is taking an attack as a spring attack.

His rider is using a free action to control his mount with Ride, telling him to do so. To the rider this is a charge attack because the mount is moving to the target and beyond. The rider can't tell the difference, and therefore the rider uses a different attack, Ride By.

Incorrect. The rider and the mount both have to take the charge action in order to perform a mounted charge.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zurai wrote:
mdt wrote:

I'm afraid I don't quite see what your point is. The creature, the mount, is making a full move past the target. As he moves past, he is taking an attack as a spring attack.

His rider is using a free action to control his mount with Ride, telling him to do so. To the rider this is a charge attack because the mount is moving to the target and beyond. The rider can't tell the difference, and therefore the rider uses a different attack, Ride By.

Incorrect. The rider and the mount both have to take the charge action in order to perform a mounted charge.

Alright, but what I'm not seeing is where it says a spring attack can't be part of a charge? The spring attack just says you move and make a single melee attack as part of your movement.

A ride by says you can make an attack as a normal charge while mounted, but then keep moving so long as you don't move more than twice your movement.

I'm not seeing anywhere where, as you state, it says one is a charge and one cannot be done as part of a charge. If you have a quote or something, great, but nothing so far except your own posts have stated a spring attack can't be done as part of a charge. I'm being serious here, I'm open to being convinced, but you need to actually quote some rules.

Shadow Lodge

Is the Summoner using the charge action though? If he is not gaining bonuses from charging, there doesn't seem to be any reason it is not possible.


mdt wrote:
Alright, but what I'm not seeing is where it says a spring attack can't be part of a charge? The spring attack just says you move and make a single melee attack as part of your movement.

With no feats, you have the following options if you want to move and attack in the same round:

Use a move action and a standard action separately.
Charge.

Spring Attack adds a third option:

Use a move and a standard action as part of a Spring Attack.

Spring Attack does NOT say it can be used as part of a charge, and is very plainly intended as an alternative to charging, rather than a power-up for charging, which is what it turns into using your house rule.

---

Honestly, this is a silly debate anyway. Ride-By Attack is very nearly impossible to use, and the mount can make an attack as part of the charge and then move afterwards using Ride-By Attack anyway, assuming you can pull it off.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Is the Summoner using the charge action though? If he is not gaining bonuses from charging, there doesn't seem to be any reason it is not possible.

He's using Ride-By Attack, so he MUST use the charge action.


Zurai wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Is the Summoner using the charge action though? If he is not gaining bonuses from charging, there doesn't seem to be any reason it is not possible.
He's using Ride-By Attack, so he MUST use the charge action.

you can charge on a spring attack....


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zurai wrote:


Honestly, this is a silly debate anyway. Ride-By Attack is very nearly impossible to use, and the mount can make an attack as part of the charge and then move afterwards using Ride-By Attack anyway, assuming you can pull it off.

This much we can agree on. Mainly because we disagree (as usual) on what is RAW and what is RAI. I see nothing in your arguments, all respect, other than your interpretation of the rules. Not hard specifics. It comes down to an interpretation of the rules. Unfortunately, in RAI arguments, there's no use arguing because it turns silly. One person says 'This is how the rules work, you are wrong' but it's really just opinion, not fact.

Basically, it's going to end up being a GM call on whether they work together since there's nothing in the books (or FAQ or 3.5 FAQ) that I can find that addresses this. If you feel they can't be combined, great, rule that way in your games. If someone else feels they can, great, they can rule that way in their games. Like a lot of arguments, this comes down to RAI vs RAW, due to vagueness in the rules. That vagueness is there for a reason, obviously, although at times that vagueness gives rise to arguments that turn silly, as they usually devolve into a 'My Daddy can beat up your daddy' schoolyard thing.


I would like to thank you all for helping me find the answer to my question. I'm glad we reached a valid well reasoned conclusion.


Just remember, when riding a mount, don't forget Mounted Combat!

My Eidolon would have lasted at least one more round if I had remembered to use the feat.

*mutter*

The Exchange

We reached no such well reasoned conclusion.

Look, fundamentally whats going on is this.
You have several kinds of actions. You have move actions, std actions, swift actions, full round actions.

Usually you either take a std action (attack) and a move action, or a move action and a standard action. So you either attack at the beginning OR end of your move.

What spring attack lets you do is take a move action and an attack action - and let your attack be at any point in your move action.

Ignoring the case of an adjustment, as soon as you move you are EITHER taking a move action or a charge action.

Charges are not moves, moves are not charges. A charge is a special full round action that lets you incorporate an attack as part of the full round action. As soon as you TAKE a move, you *cannot* charge.
Look at the chart on page 183 where charge is NOT listed as a move action.

Your argument boils down to .. because I am moving while I charge, I should be able to make a spring attack.

By the same logic, becasue I am moving while my mount makes an overbear (free hoof attack) I should be able to make a spring attack.

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