Out of curiousity would you allow alcehmists (and alc/ftr's) to take
Wpn focus bomb?
Wpn specialization bomb?
Improved Crit Bomb?
Shot on the run?
How about:
Vital strike?
Two wpn fighting? (To throw two at once)
(My apologies if this is a double post.)
Bombs are thrown weapons that need a touch attack to hit. So if Weapon Focus(Dart) and Weapon Focus(Ranged Spell) are options, I see no reaso to not allow it(especially Weapon Spec, since that takes four levels of fighter).
I was thinking about wpn spec (and just now Point Blank Shot), would the bonus damage from those also affect the splash damage?
(What about rapid and many shot? It'd be an interesting way to front load a combat.)
doesn't it take a move action to mix a bomb? and a standard to throw? negating any rapid shot or twf / quickdraw thrown weapon combos for bombs? and don't the admixtures for bombs go inert if they're not used that round?
Right on all accounts. That answers those questions (Unless someone comes up with a way to get an extra move action through a feat or spell.)
doesn't it take a move action to mix a bomb? and a standard to throw? negating any rapid shot or twf / quickdraw thrown weapon combos for bombs? and don't the admixtures for bombs go inert if they're not used that round?Right on all accounts. That answers those questions (Unless someone comes up with a way to get an extra move action through a feat or spell.)
Not without dipping into the spell compendium.
Not without dipping into the spell compendium.doesn't it take a move action to mix a bomb? and a standard to throw? negating any rapid shot or twf / quickdraw thrown weapon combos for bombs? and don't the admixtures for bombs go inert if they're not used that round?Right on all accounts. That answers those questions (Unless someone comes up with a way to get an extra move action through a feat or spell.)
No quickened supernatural ability in the bestiary? (I haven't read it.)
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No quickened supernatural ability in the bestiary? (I haven't read it.)Not without dipping into the spell compendium.doesn't it take a move action to mix a bomb? and a standard to throw? negating any rapid shot or twf / quickdraw thrown weapon combos for bombs? and don't the admixtures for bombs go inert if they're not used that round?Right on all accounts. That answers those questions (Unless someone comes up with a way to get an extra move action through a feat or spell.)
Only Spell-Like
I'm sorry I didn't find this thread before I started mine. Besides the feats you mention, I've also been wondering about Deadly Aim. As far as I can tell, it seems legitimate, but should it also apply to the splash damage?
I could see Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, and such improving the regular damage. However, the splash damage is more of an effect and shouldnt be affected. Those fears only really seem to affect the person hit with the shot.
Vital strike is problematic, the rest i am ok with. Deadly aim is pretty balanced to me. While its a touch attack, the short range measn you will almost always be taking range penalties so the -x for deadly aim still hurts.
Vital strike on the other hand adds quite a bit of damage without any real drawback. You already can only take a single attack a round... and 20d6 from a bomb is quite a bit, especially if you tack on certain abilities.
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Vital strike is problematic, the rest i am ok with. Deadly aim is pretty balanced to me. While its a touch attack, the short range measn you will almost always be taking range penalties so the -x for deadly aim still hurts.
Vital strike on the other hand adds quite a bit of damage without any real drawback. You already can only take a single attack a round... and 20d6 from a bomb is quite a bit, especially if you tack on certain abilities.
To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.
Deadly Aim (Combat)You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a -1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Deadly Aim can't be used with splash weapons like bombs. While Vital Strike seems rather powerful, there is no rule against it at the moment.
Throwing two bombs at once should be possible with the delayed bomb discovery but seems rather pointless.
While Vital Strike seems rather powerful, there is no rule against it at the moment.
Improved vital strike at level 15 for 24d6 seems like it should be errated out to me. (Also raises interesting questions about the splash damage too.)
(40d6 at level 21 with greater vital strike and a level of fighter is also kind of amusing in a broken sort of way.)
Throwing two bombs at once should be possible with the delayed bomb discovery but seems rather pointless.
Actually I think it would be very useful.
Think about the clever ambushes/surprise attacks you could set up with that. (And arguably, couldn't you have 3 or 4 vials on the ground with that discovery and use the one you're holding to set them off. Sure you might use up all your abilities at once, but it'd make for a TPK if your BBEG was planning before hand or running away from you (or alternatively if you, in mmo speak, "pulled" him into an area you set up before hand.
Deadly Aim can't be used with splash weapons like bombs. While Vital Strike seems rather powerful, there is no rule against it at the moment.
Throwing two bombs at once should be possible with the delayed bomb discovery but seems rather pointless.
That's the problem. The base damage is too low, as I see it. But Deadly Aim, which would have been a reasonable, non-cheesy way to increase damage, is not permitted. On the other hand, with Vital Strike it's a bit over-powered, yet completely legal as far as I can tell. And then it becomes ludicrously over-powered when you start considering Improved Vital Strike and so on.
I think what I'd like to see is for Vital Strike to be disallowed, but also have the base damage for the bombs improved.
It would also be nice to have the splash weapon rules repeated in the Alchemist description, and a clear answer on how feats interact with splash damage specifically.
It would get pretty sweet with Improved Vital Strike (no GVS for 3/4 BAB). At 20th, 30d6 + Int (Vital Strike specifies that bonus damage from Strengh is not multiplied, so it's logical it's the same with Int) in 10 foot radius (Explosive Bomb) is fairly good (it's like a minimized deranged empowered fireball).
But that's the issue with Vital Strike. It was not designed to be balanced with special weapons like, let's see, guns, wich inability to fire more than once per round was make up with a higher base damage.
I am going to repost what I did in the other thread
Regarding Vital Strike and bombs, you know actually looking at it, how gamebreaking is it?
A alchemist can get vital strike at level 8.
Improved vital strike can be attained at level 15
Greater vital strike can never be attained by an alchemist.
So bomb damage
level damage
1 1d6+int
2 1d6+int
3 2d6+int
4 2d6+int
5 3d6+int
6 3d6+int
7 4d6+int
8 8d6+int (normal is 4d6)
9 10d6+int (normal is 5d6)
10 10d6+int
11 12d6+int
12 12d6+int
13 14d6+int
14 14d6+int
Now here is where it gets intense
15 24d6+int
16 24d6+int
17 27d6+int
18 27d6+int
19 30d6+int
20 30d6+int
So Up untill level 15 its pretty much in line with a fireball (and its brothers cone of cold, chain lightning etc), but at a much shorter range, and without the same area impact (splash damage does not compare to a fireball).
Now someone pointed out Sticky bomb essentially doubling damage, but you cant get that untill level 12, and at level 12 I can empower a fireball for 15d6 damage. 15d6 in a much bigger area and a much longer range, vs 28d6 at a much smaller range in a single target (plus splash damage) And sticky bomb is easily as much investment as a metamagic feat is to a caster. Or better yet you can maximize a scorching ray which is essentially 24d6 at a greater range and better precision.
So really the bomb with vital strike feats doesnt start pulling away untill level 15. At level 15 casters have some pretty rediculous spells anyway. Not to mention At level 15 how many shots at a sneak attack does a 2 weapon fighting flanking rogue have? 6 xweapon damage+8d6 sneak attack? And swords dont run out of uses per day. So yea call me crazy but I am unconcerned about bombs and vital strike
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It would get pretty sweet with Improved Vital Strike (no GVS for 3/4 BAB). At 20th, 30d6 + Int (Vital Strike specifies that bonus damage from Strengh is not multiplied, so it's logical it's the same with Int) in 10 foot radius (Explosive Bomb) is fairly good (it's like a minimized deranged empowered fireball).
But that's the issue with Vital Strike. It was not designed to be balanced with special weapons like, let's see, guns, wich inability to fire more than once per round was make up with a higher base damage.
Explosive bomb only increases the radius of the splash damage, so it would be 30d6+Int against one target and 10+Int against anyone within 10 ft.
And 30d6 against one target aren't that overpowered. That's an average damage of 105 per round against that target. It becomes better when you add the sticky bomb discovery, 30d6 in one round and 30d6 in the next one as well.The main problem with the 30d6 isn't the damage they cause but the time it takes to roll them and to count their numbers.
Vital Strike is a rather problematic feat. In most cases it's weak, but if combined with an attack that can be used only once per round anyway (like the alchemist's bombs ,the axe of a minotaur or the bite attack of a tyrannosaurus) its damage becomes somewhat impressive.
A well built bow fighter still deals much more damage.
Splash for an improved vital strike bomb would be 30+Int Mod at level 20... only to those adjacent. All in all it's still not in the "primary damage dealers" arena (not even close really).
On average at level twenty you are looking at 118 damage to one target once a round (30d6+13) with splash of 43 to anyone beside him. Granted it's 33 times a day, but even then not exactly summoning trumpet archons while time stopped or anything.