Fighter to Eilodon Comparison

[John Spalding]

Assumptions and build background:

1) I wanted builds that do roughly the same things...put out good damage without hosing AC. Both should be at least respectable tanks. They were both put together with that in mind.

2) I assumed that the Summoner spent 1/3rd of his wealth per level on the Eidolon. This may or may not prove to be a reasonable assumption, but I figured that the summoner would spend a decent amount of cash staying alive and gearing himself up to be productive.

3) I built the fighter with the standard fantasy point buy. More point buy would probably effect the fighter's hitpoints more than anything else.

4) The 12th level Eidolon is not Huge because he wouldn't fit through doors.

Level 6

Fighter 6
Spd 20
Str 18 (15+1 lvl), Dex 17 (15+2 item), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10 , Cha 7
HP: 61 (10 Base +27 (avg of 5d8) + 6 Favored class + 12 Con + 6 Toughness )
AC: 24 (10 base + 10 Armor + 1 NA +1 Def + 2 dex)
Saves: Fort +8 (5 base +2 con +1 item), Reflex +5 (2 base +3 dex) , Will +2 (+4 vs fear) (2 base +0 wis)

Attacks: +11/+11/+6/+6 (6 Bab +4 str +1 weapon +1 WF +1 WT -2 TWF)
1d6+ 8 (4 str +1 weapon +2 WS +1WT)

Feats and Gear:

H Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
1B TWF
1 Double Slice
2B Toughness
3 Power attack
4B Weapon Specialization (short sword)
5 Step Up
6B ITWF

Armor Training 1 - (-1 ACP +1 Max Dex)
Weapon Training – Light Blades
Bravery +2

Gear
+1 Short Sword, +1 short sword, +1 cloak of resistance, +1 Full Plate, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Dex +2, Ring of Protection, Consumables

Quadruped of Level 6 Summoner
Outsider 6
spd 40
Str 24 (14 base +8 size +2 sum), Dex 14 (14 base -2 size +2 sum), Con 18 (13 +1 lvl +4 size), Int 7 , Wis 10, Cha 11
HP: 63 ( 33 +6 toughness +24 Con)
AC: 23 (27 counting mage armor) (10 base +(4 armor) + 2 dex + 3 shield + 1 def + 8 NA (4 base + 2 form + 2 size) -1 size bonus)
Saves: Fort +9 (5 base +4 con), Reflex +7 (5 base +2 dex) , Will +2 (2 base +0 wis)

Attacks: Bite +12 (6 Bab +7 str -1 size)
1d8+ 7 (7 str)
Claws: +12/+12/+12/+12(6 Bab +7 str -1 size)
1d8+ 7 (7 str)

Feats, Gear, and Evolutions:

1 Power Attack
3 Shield Proficiency
6 Toughness

Evasion, Devotion

Evolutions (9)
Free: Bite, Limbs x2 (legs)
Large 3
Pounce 1
Limbs (arms) 2
Claws x2: 2
Magic Attacks: 1

Gear: +1 Large Shield, Ring of Protection +1

Level 12
Fighter 12
Spd 30
Str 21 (17+2 lvl+2 Item), Dex 18 (15 +1 lvl+2 item), Con 16 (14+2 item), Int 10, Wis10, Cha 7
HP: 130 (10 Base +60 (avg of 11d8) + 12 Favored class + 36 Con + 12 Toughness )
AC: 36 (10 base + 14 Armor +6 shield + 1 NA +1 Def + 4 dex)
Saves: Fort +12 (8 base +3 con +1 item), Reflex +8 (4 base +4 dex) , Will +4 (+7 vs fear) (4 base +0 wis)

Attacks: Long Sword: +22/+17/+12 (12 Bab +5 str +3 weapon +2 GWF +2 WT -2 TWF)
1d8+ 12 (5 str +3 weapon +2 WS +2WT)
Shield: +21/+16 (12 Bab +5 str +3 weapon +2 GWF +1 WT -2 TWF)
1d4+ 11 (5 str +3 weapon +2 WS +1WT)
Rend: 1d10+7

Feats and Gear:

H Weapon Focus (Long Sword)
1B TWF
1 Double Slice
2B Toughness
3 Power attack
4B Weapon Specialization (Long sword)
5 Step Up
6B ITWF
7 Improved Shield Bash
8b GWF Long sword
9 WF Shield
10B WS Shield
11 GWF Shield
12B TW Rend

Armor Training 3 - (-3 ACP +3 Max Dex)
Weapon Training – Light Blades +2, Close +1
Bravery 3

+5 Full Plate, +5 Light Shield, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, +3 Longsword, +3 shield spikes, +1 amulet of NA, +1 ring of prot +1 cloak of resistance

Quadruped of Level 12 Summoner
Outsider 11
Spd: 50
Str 27 (14 base +8 size +5 sum), Dex 17 (14 base -2 size+ 5 sum), Con 18 (13 +1 lvl +4 size), Int 8 (7+1 lvl) , Wis 10, Cha 11
HP: 115 ( 60 +11 toughness +44 Con)
AC: 36 (40 counting mage armor) (10 base +(4 armor) + 3 dex + 7 shield + 1 def + 15 NA (10 base + 2 form + 2 size +1 magic) -1 size bonus +1 insight bonus)
Saves: Fort +11 (7 base +4 con), Reflex +10 (7 base +3 dex) , Will +3 (3 base) +4 vs enchantment)

Attacks: Bite +19 (11 Bab +8 str +1 magic -1 size)
1d8+ 9 (8 str+1 magic)
Claws: +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20 (11 Bab +6 str -1 size+1 WF)
1d6+ 9 (8 str+1 magic)

Feats, Gear, and Evolutions:

1 Power Attack
3 Shield Proficiency
6 Toughness
9 WF Claws

Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack

Evolutions (16)
Free: Bite, Limbs x2 (legs)
Large 3
Pounce 1
Limbs (arms) 2
Limbs (legs) 2
Claws x3: 3
Fast Healing: 4
Reach (claws): 1

Gear: 36k

Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, +5 Heavy Shield, Ring of Prot +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone

[Naklai]

Just so you know, Claw attacks are all secondary attacks so they will be running on all -5s.

Natural attacks listed
as secondary are made using the eidolon’s base attack
bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon’s Strength modifier on
damage rolls (if positive).

Now of course with level 12 you have multiattack so.

Multiattack (Combat)
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.

Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.

Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.

The fighter's movement at 12 is not 20, it will be 30 even with heavy armor because of Armor Training.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

[John Spalding]

Notes and Observations:

1) Claws and Limbs may be the best means of adding extra attacks. Tentacles are a little cheaper, but take at least -2 to attack and don't give the very nice speed bonus and would require more resources to be spent on things like Weapon Focus.

2) Shields are still great for Eidolons, well worth the feat. Part of the appeal is the low cost bonus to AC, a general system feature.. Another part of shield's appeal is the appeal of having hands (UMD and picking things up), measured against the downside of using hands, (weapons are expensive for one).

3) Eidolons are comparative to an equivalent level fighter in full attack actions against adjacent foes...but seemingly better in every other way.

For one, they have skills. Wonderful skills. Perception and Stealth are class skills and they can get UMD. Combined with the Skill evolution they can be the best skill user in the game (except maybe a tricked out bard).

They also have a relatively high AC and speed. Combined with reach and pounce they are the more mobile, easy to use combatant, as long as there are no bottlenecks.

4) The Eidolon is the more adaptive combatant. Getting much more AC out of the fighter would be hard. For one, it depends on spending priorities and loot. Getting more AC on the Eidolon would be pretty easy and would not depend on the DM or AP writer.

[John Spalding]

Claws are now primary:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

The claws are primary attacks, not secondary. That is an error. Thanks for the catch, I will make sure it is fixed.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advancedPlayersGuidePlaytest/round2/round2RulesQuestions

Fixed the speed

[seekerofshadowlight]

A few things, claws are secondary if bite is primary, which it is here. The question that response was to, was bipedal with only claws.

[tejón]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

A few things, claws are secondary if bite is primary, which it is here. The question that response was to, was bipedal with only claws.

There is no "only one primary" rule in PF...

[YuenglingDragon]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

A few things, claws are secondary if bite is primary, which it is here. The question that response was to, was bipedal with only claws.

Yeah, but what he said was that "the claws are primary." Not, "Claws are primary on biped forms." As far as I can tell, everyone sees them a primary attacks and has been playing them as such. Don't you think that sometime in the last two weeks he would have corrected us if that were not the case?

Claws are primary attacks on cats and I'm sure if you want you can find a number of other examples if you look through the bestiary.

[kyrt-ryder]

YuenglingDragon wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

A few things, claws are secondary if bite is primary, which it is here. The question that response was to, was bipedal with only claws.

Yeah, but what he said was that "the claws are primary." Not, "Claws are primary on biped forms." As far as I can tell, everyone sees them a primary attacks and has been playing them as such. Don't you think that sometime in the last two weeks he would have corrected us if that were not the case?

Claws are primary attacks on cats and I'm sure if you want you can find a number of other examples if you look through the bestiary.

Um... Y.D..... might wanna check your sources. Unless somebody is wielding a manufactured weapon (or using unarmed strikes I guess....) claws are ALWAYS primary weapons in PF.

[YuenglingDragon]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

YuenglingDragon wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

A few things, claws are secondary if bite is primary, which it is here. The question that response was to, was bipedal with only claws.

Yeah, but what he said was that "the claws are primary." Not, "Claws are primary on biped forms." As far as I can tell, everyone sees them a primary attacks and has been playing them as such. Don't you think that sometime in the last two weeks he would have corrected us if that were not the case?

Claws are primary attacks on cats and I'm sure if you want you can find a number of other examples if you look through the bestiary.

Um... Y.D..... might wanna check your sources. Unless somebody is wielding a manufactured weapon (or using unarmed strikes I guess....) claws are ALWAYS primary weapons in PF.

Now I'm confused. That's what I'm saying. The claws are primary. Seekerofshadowlight claimed they were not and I was disabusing him of that notion. Was something in there confusing? Serious question, not trying to be a dick.

[kyrt-ryder]

My bad, must have misinterpreted your post(s)

I thought you were stating that specific creature types (like cats for example) had primary claws, and others didn't.

[YuenglingDragon]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

My bad, must have misinterpreted your post(s)

I thought you were stating that specific creature types (like cats for example) had primary claws, and others didn't.

No, I was just tossing out a core example that claws are primary attacks on every monster I can find (unless they're foreclaws on some dinos).

Back on topic, I'm not sure I really understand the problem here. OP, are you're saying that you're surprised that in the mid to high levels a casting class is stronger than a melee class? If so, you've been playing a very different game than me. They always are. Why don't you run the example again vs a druid with Elephant companion at 7th and 13th lvl. See what it looks like. IMO, that a rather more fair comparison.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Well I was thinking it stayed secondary for something that did not start out with it. The question the OP quoted Jason's reply to was talking about biped eilodons , as they way claws are written they would never be prime

I did not intend it as he could only have 1 prime attack, but rather his form claws were not prime, they only seem to be prime on bipeds, which as written they are not prime even on them

I am not sure if he meant prime for everyone or just for bipeds, prob ment for everyone. Anyhow I posted on way to little sleep, so take it for what ya will

I do agree summoner + eildon vs druid + combat pet be a much better comparison and in most cases I am thinking the druid wins there. The summoners pet may be a bit tougher but the druid's class is tougher and a better caster then a summoner

[Kolokotroni]

A couple notes, I still think its questionable whether a quadraped can put claws on all 4 leg limbs which it appears you have done on your level 6 eidolon (since one of the arm limbs needs to be holding your shield.

Also your level 12 eidolon is wearing 2 amulets.

In addition, yes the fighter is very gear dependent, but the game system assumes a certain amount of gear, that is part of the rules of the game. If a dm doesnt follow that, or an adventure doesnt follow it, that is not the game's fault, and shouldnt be considered when addressing a new class.

That said, honestly I am not moved by the fighter comparison. The Fighter is at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to capabilities in this game, why do we need to compare everything to him? I'd rather see the summoner and his eidolon compared to a druid which has comparable abilities. Untill feat selection is expanded and their are more feats that work together over multiple levels, the fighter is going to be inferior. To say it over and over every time something new comes out is not going to change that.

[kyrt-ryder]

Kolokotroni wrote:

Untill feat selection is expanded and their are more feats that work together over multiple levels, the fighter is going to be inferior. To say it over and over every time something new comes out is not going to change that.

That's something people need to remember. The Fighter class WILL get stronger with the release of the APG. More feats means more options, which means an improved ability to hone in on exactly what capabilities Fighter players want for their PC's.

The Fighter get's better with each influx of feats, try comparing the Core 3.5 Fighter to the Fighter with say... 5 relevant splats, to one with 10, and you see it getting stronger, and stronger.

To the point that I would be willing to wager that the fully decked out non-core 3.5 fighter (Under PF base feat progression) may be stronger than the PF Fighter. (Likely weaker in one or two spots, but stronger overall)

So remember that the Fighter your comparing to right now is weaker than the Fighter that the Eidolon Master (somebody suggested that name upthread, and I'm really digging it) will be released with.

[YuenglingDragon]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

So remember that the Fighter your comparing to right now is weaker than the Fighter that the Eidolon Master (somebody suggested that name upthread, and I'm really digging it) will be released with.

Probably not going to be a considerable difference. Even with a couple dozen splats, Fighters are rarely if ever going to be better than a casting class (excepting bard) using just core at the mid and higher levels. A 20th level fighter can be as bad @$$ as he likes and have awesome saves but if a 20th level wizard sees him coming...

Time stop. Wall of force. Wall of water. Drown fighter drown. Ta da!

[kyrt-ryder]

YuenglingDragon wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

So remember that the Fighter your comparing to right now is weaker than the Fighter that the Eidolon Master (somebody suggested that name upthread, and I'm really digging it) will be released with.

Probably not going to be a considerable difference. Even with a couple dozen splats, Fighters are rarely if ever going to be better than a casting class (excepting bard) using just core at the mid and higher levels. A 20th level fighter can be as bad @$$ as he likes and have awesome saves but if a 20th level wizard sees him coming...

Time stop. Wall of force. Wall of water. Drown fighter drown. Ta da!

That particular combo doesn't exactly work lol, but I'm not going to get into that discussion because I know the concept your trying to communicate is dead-on.

Now, couple things.

Summoner has bardic casting, you can argue that the spell selection is better or worse, but the spell levels are generally correct (with the exception of the summon spells, which HAVE to level in order to be level relevant, while most other low level spells (damage spells aside) continue to matter, though they may require heighten spell to do so.

(And I wasn't particularly comparing the Fighter to the whole Summoner package, I concur that the Eidodolon Master should be compared to the Druid. Medium BAB, badass pet, casting. The two are basically a trade. 2/3 casting baddass pet, or full casting and tough pet.