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Hey there, since we're all making request for the new ADVANCED players guide, I'd like to throw something out there: Firearms.
Yeah, I know that they're not technically in the core rules, but I would like to see them become a bigger part of this game. I myself and a huge fan of them (and a steam punk fan too), and seeing both better rules for them as well as some feats that apply to all ranged weapons (rather than just bows/crossbows/thrown weapons) or even some specific gun feats (trick shots, hammer fanning, or armor penetration) would be awesome.
Just looking at the new classes, you guys have gone above and beyond with custom tailoring things to specific ideas, such as the Cavalier (mounted combat), Witch (fantasy view of the name), and Summoner (super summoning!), and I'd love to see some of that creativity put into firearms. While I know it's probably not going to happen, it's something I'd greatly appreciate, even if it's just a thought into not making a feat just for bows/crossbows/thrown weapons.
Always N.credible,
N. Jolly
Creative Director
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If we added firearms to the Advanced Player's Guide... it would be cool to add a gunslinger base class. I'm afraid it's too late to introduce a new base class, though.
That said, adding firearms to the APG is an interesting idea. It's probably too late to do so, though... and that might be for the best. Firearms are a HUGE topic, and my main complaint about firearms in Golarion isn't that they're there... but that they got kind of glossed over. The use of gunpowder weaponry creates implications far and above just pistols; how do cannons work? What about gunpowder itself; how much damage does a barrel of it do when it explodes? What about dynamite? Can you make gunpowder easily? If so, what skill do you use? What kind of damage do bullets do... piercing? If they do piercing, how do you model something like a scattergun? What about the fact that bullets can also cause explosive damage when they burst on impact? Do guns for Small creatures like halflings do less damage? If they don't, why do they break the rules for non-firearm weapons doing damage based by size? Further, the introduction of guns into a game can DRAMATICALLY change the flavor of the game, even moreso than psionics or, frankly, fantastic sci-fi elements like lasers.
And so on.
Further complicating the issue is that guns are one of those topics that have passionate experts. Sailing ships are also in this category. Topics that, when they're put into an RPG, tend to polarize fans and rile folks up if they're not handled with enough detail OR if they're taking up TOO much space for details.
Anyway... rules for firearms would be a cool addition to the APG. I'm just pretty sure we won't have room to talk about them. Eventually we should probably do something with firearms and the like, though.
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If we added firearms to the Advanced Player's Guide... it would be cool to add a gunslinger base class. I'm afraid it's too late to introduce a new base class, though.
That said, adding firearms to the APG is an interesting idea. It's probably too late to do so, though... and that might be for the best. Firearms are a HUGE topic, and my main complaint about firearms in Golarion isn't that they're there... but that they got kind of glossed over. The use of gunpowder weaponry creates implications far and above just pistols; how do cannons work? What about gunpowder itself; how much damage does a barrel of it do when it explodes? What about dynamite? Can you make gunpowder easily? If so, what skill do you use? What kind of damage do bullets do... piercing? If they do piercing, how do you model something like a scattergun? What about the fact that bullets can also cause explosive damage when they burst on impact? Do guns for Small creatures like halflings do less damage? If they don't, why do they break the rules for non-firearm weapons doing damage based by size? Further, the introduction of guns into a game can DRAMATICALLY change the flavor of the game, even moreso than psionics or, frankly, fantastic sci-fi elements like lasers.
And so on.
Further complicating the issue is that guns are one of those topics that have passionate experts. Sailing ships are also in this category. Topics that, when they're put into an RPG, tend to polarize fans and rile folks up if they're not handled with enough detail OR if they're taking up TOO much space for details.
Anyway... rules for firearms would be a cool addition to the APG. I'm just pretty sure we won't have room to talk about them. Eventually we should probably do something with firearms and the like, though.
Honestly, I'd fall in love with a gunslinger base class, but a fighter works really well for the build as is.
I'm glad to know that the issue isn't that there's not an urge to do it, but rather that the issue is handling it correctly. I myself am not a gun nut in real life, just more of a fan of the aesthetics of it, and I'm even right now working on a two weapon wielder, sword in one hand, Golarion revolver in the other.
I'm just hoping some consideration can be put into feats for this book so that I don't look and sigh when I see a bow/crossbow/thrown weapon feat and think "what if"
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wrote some great points about firearms in fantasy RPGsHonestly, I'd fall in love with a gunslinger base class, but a fighter works really well for the build as is.
<shameless plug> How about a Gunslinger Prestige Class? It's not canon, not official, but will be in Wayfinder #2. Not written from the point of view of a gun fan, but from a fan of westerns, which are basically modern fantasy anyway. ;) </shameless plug>
Even more shameless plug - here's my take on gunpowder in Golarion!
Firearms for Pathfinder
Cannon for Pathfinder
No need to wait for perfection. We've been using these in our current campaign and Riddleport has been hearing some gunshots.
I'd be in for a black-powder-themed Companion. We've got "Elves of Golarion," "Dwarves of Golarion," how 'bout "Guns of Golarion?"
Or possibly "Guns of Alkenstar" specifically. I'd buy that!
Edit: ... or on the matter of "technological advancements" outside the sphere of "normal" D&D technological level. Perhaps also include stuff from crashed extra-planer spaceships/airships or any super science left over from previous "golden ages" in the timeline. Such as energy weapons or clockwork creatures/constructs.
"Technologies of Golarion" or something to that fashion would also be very cool!
FWIW, I would prefer no firearms at all in Golarian or any products set in Golarian. If Paizo wanted to come out with a stand alone Firearms supplement thats fine but I don't want to see firearms as part of the world or APs. I was already disappointed to see them mentioned in the CG in an off handed way, almost like they authors were bending over backwards to have "something for everyone". They just cause too many problems (as James cites above) and IMHO don't fit into a fantasy setting and you can simulate firearms just as well with magic. In fact I think it would be more interesting to see a magic based "gunslinger". Just my 2 cents...
And likely ... there will never be any firearms in any published AP. If I take past posts from James to have solid finality to it. Mr Jacobs likes Numaria and Conan and Robots... with lasers. Poor little Alkenstar will instead fall to the wayside.
However - Golarion contains guns, and for those of us that DO believe it fits in our fantasy, we'd LOVE to see a supplement that covers them. If there was not a group of gamers who thought so, there would have been no attempt to put them into the campaign setting to begin with even if it was only a "off-handed" way.
Its kinda one of the reasons I suggest a technology supplement that covers Firearms, Clockwork Contructs (Robots), and lasers. That way its not just a supplement on guns and has a little wider selection of material for a variety of people.
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FWIW, I would prefer no firearms at all in Golarian or any products set in Golarian. If Paizo wanted to come out with a stand alone Firearms supplement thats fine but I don't want to see firearms as part of the world or APs. I was already disappointed to see them mentioned in the CG in an off handed way, almost like they authors were bending over backwards to have "something for everyone". They just cause too many problems (as James cites above) and IMHO don't fit into a fantasy setting and you can simulate firearms just as well with magic. In fact I think it would be more interesting to see a magic based "gunslinger". Just my 2 cents...
Its too late to retcon guns out of Glorion. And personally, I just don't understand how people don't feel that guns don't fit in fantasy. Its a part of fantasy, has been always and always will.
I like the rules in Tome of Secrets.
Got myself a Rogue Gunsmith in pbp.
Using Craft (Alchemy) to make the gunpowder.
No one has made enough of it yet to worry about exploding barrels.
Just wish I could use my Craft (Siege Weapons) to make a nice cannon!
FWIW, I would prefer no firearms at all in Golarian or any products set in Golarian. If Paizo wanted to come out with a stand alone Firearms supplement thats fine but I don't want to see firearms as part of the world or APs. I was already disappointed to see them mentioned in the CG in an off handed way, almost like they authors were bending over backwards to have "something for everyone". They just cause too many problems (as James cites above) and IMHO don't fit into a fantasy setting and you can simulate firearms just as well with magic. In fact I think it would be more interesting to see a magic based "gunslinger". Just my 2 cents...Its too late to retcon guns out of Glorion. And personally, I just don't understand how people don't feel that guns don't fit in fantasy. Its a part of fantasy, has been always and always will.
Agreed.
I'm a big anime fan. One good example that combines magic, robots, guns, and yes even lasers, is Hayao Miyazaki's "Castle in the Sky". This is a animated film that has all those elements, but does not come across as purely Sci-fi... it seems (at least to me) that it is more or nearly all "fantasy" in its approach. Heck, the robots even respond to or are constructed from magic to begin with.
Yeah even Tolkien had "blasting fire". Firearms of some sort have been in use in Europe for about seven hundred years. The idea that firearms do not belong in fantasy is quite frankly not supported by logic. Of course in most cases these firearms should be, perhaps not very suitable for typical adventuring due to a number of factors. I might hire a group of hand cannoners or arquebusers to accompany me into a dungeon, but I probably wouldn't use such weapons for my character.
Though as I understand it, Arkenstar's weapons are more advanced than normal, medieval firearms.
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To be honest, while I do see difficulties with firearms in the rules, I think there are lots of ways to work around it. The main reason people believe that firearms don't fit is because they believe that firearms immediately mean that swords/bows/magic become obsolete, which is absolutely not true!
If you look at real world history, some sort of firearm has been in existence since approximately 900 AD, over 1100 years ago. While the Chinese first invented gunpowder and the first firearms, it relatively quickly spread to the Middle East, where at the time the best and brightest in alchemical creations were.
Why then did firearms not take over the world at this point? The reason is simply that technologically it is a very very hard technology to improve. For improvement it required the entirety of Europe in constant conflict to make better and better iterations. Firearms in effect didn't become a major player for an army until somewhere in the early to mid 1700s. Prior to this Longbowmen were actually more accurate and more deadly, and even during the American Revolution, I would venture that if all the men were trained in the longbow, the war wouldn't been much much shorter. The problem with longbows is that it requires two very specialized talents that aren't required for firearms: extensive training and large upper body strength. For this reason it wasn't until firearms could be mass manufactured as well as their use became good enough that the benefit outweighed the cost that they went into use.
As for larger firearms, (I.E. cannons) their use in the navy was much earlier. Before this ship to ship warfare was much uglier and navies didn't have the options that armies had. Therefore they were forced to integrate a cannon design as early as possible. This is why we saw cannons in use as early as the mid 13th century AD, whereas it took close to 500 years to integrate firearms into army technology. More "modern" cannons were in use in the late 1400s and early 1500s to what we think of as a cannon. Why were they used much earlier? Frankly, because they needed to be used. While a bow and a firearm are essentially equal, there is no pre-cannon precursor in naval technology. In siege warfare the trebuchet and catapult fill the same role, but those are untenable in a ship. Hence the early adoption. Even then for an army they saw limited use in the Middle Ages and early Renaissance period as the technology of defenses (castles) outpaced the technology of cannons. In fact the first army general to make cannons crucial to his success was Napoleon. By his time cannons had become good enough for general army use and he was smart enough to effectively use them. However this was around 1800, right around the time that firearms were in general use as well.
So where does this bring us with Golarion? I see it as a cost-benefit relationship. I see firearms as only a product of Alkenstar. I assume the reason for this was because Alkenstar is bordered by a land where magic is essentially ineffective, so they were forced to technologically advance themselves to survive (just as Europe was forced). In all other places of the world magic is widely enough used that the benefit of firearms greatly outweighs the cost. Yes for the long-term we all believe that technology/firearms would be better overall than magic, but it isn't the long term we should look at, it's the short term decisions of the people in power. In this case a wizard or an enchanted bow/sword is better than a primitive firearm. This means that the only place where technological advances in firearms take place would be in Alkenstar, and I'm assuming the talent pool there is much much smaller than the entirety of Europe.
So in other words you have a primitive gun society that advances very slowly over time, but probably has a good starting point for weapons. The real question is what time period do you choose for advancement of the firearms in Alkenstar and then work from there. Say if you chose a period right around the Civil War you could effectively keep in some emerging technologies for balance (rifles) while take away others (such as shotguns) which could flavorfully not be useful. Or as another way you could go to an earlier period of time and use bludgeoning muskets.
I understand it being too late for the APG, but once/if you do a Chronicle or Companion on Alkenstar this would be a great place to incorporate the rules.
Just my 2 cp ont he topic...
Even more shameless plug - here's my take on gunpowder in Golarion!
Firearms for Pathfinder
Cannon for PathfinderNo need to wait for perfection. We've been using these in our current campaign and Riddleport has been hearing some gunshots.
Just wondering, would you be interesting in making these rules OGL content so a 3PP might be interested in useing them in a upcoming product? (Hint! Hint!)
Just wondering, would you be interesting in making these rules OGL content so a 3PP might be interested in useing them in a upcoming product? (Hint! Hint!)Even more shameless plug - here's my take on gunpowder in Golarion!
Firearms for Pathfinder
Cannon for PathfinderNo need to wait for perfection. We've been using these in our current campaign and Riddleport has been hearing some gunshots.
Oh, sure, I declare them OGL in their entirety, only excepting things like references to "Golarion" and "Alkenstar" which are Paizo PI. Enjoy!
Also a word on guns in Golarion in general - Alizor has it perfectly. I developed these rules because I was going to be running a naval campaign and that's where you'd expect to see wider use of these weapons. Larger countries like Cheliax or Taldor might build a bombard to use in a big siege, and have a unit of arquebusiers somewhere, but the expense and drawbacks compared to archers mainly keep them aboard ship an in the hands of specialists.
In our campaign, one of the five characters has bothered with the exotic weapon proficiency to use them. (And yes, operating a primitive firearm is definitely an exotic proficiency kind of scenario. It's not point and shoot by any stretch of the imagination.) He got a pistol off a dead ship captain and bought some powder and shot at inflated prices in Riddleport. He is very reluctant to shoot the thing because of the expense, but so far it's hitting that sweet spot of "the character is happy with their choice, but it's not so overwhelmingly good everyone else is getting on the bandwagon." He did manage to one-shot Angvar Thistlecrit from "Cheat the Devil and Take his Gold" due to exploding dice damage, and Thuvalia had a blunderbuss, which she totally missed him with. He got the blunderbuss too, but so far hasn't hit anyone with it :-)
Oh, sure, I declare them OGL in their entirety, only excepting things like references to "Golarion" and "Alkenstar" which are Paizo PI. Enjoy!
Cool thanks! I am sure you will see these rules in the upcoming Eberron / Spelljammer inspired mash up, Pirates of the Bronze Sky. Stay tuned and thanks again.
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Oh, sure, I declare them OGL in their entirety, only excepting things like references to "Golarion" and "Alkenstar" which are Paizo PI. Enjoy!Cool thanks! I am sure you will see these rules in the upcoming Eberron / Spelljammer inspired mash up, Pirates of the Bronze Sky. Stay tuned and thanks again.
I've been look at that over at your website. It looks interesting! I'll have to pick that up.
I would like to see support for firearms as well. IF there isnt room in the APG, it could definately be it's own book further down the line as was said it is a fairly beefy topic. Or perhaps part of a Pathfinder Modern/Past/Future type book.
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Also a word on guns in Golarion in general - Alizor has it perfectly. I developed these rules because I was going to be running a naval campaign and that's where you'd expect to see wider use of these weapons. Larger countries like Cheliax or Taldor might build a bombard to use in a big siege, and have a unit of arquebusiers somewhere, but the expense and drawbacks compared to archers mainly keep them aboard ship an in the hands of specialists.
In our campaign, one of the five characters has bothered with the exotic weapon proficiency to use them. (And yes, operating a primitive firearm is definitely an exotic proficiency kind of scenario. It's not point and shoot by any stretch of the imagination.) He got a pistol off a dead ship captain and bought some powder and shot at inflated prices in Riddleport. He is very reluctant to shoot the thing because of the expense, but so far it's hitting that sweet spot of "the character is happy with their choice, but it's not so overwhelmingly good everyone else is getting on the bandwagon." He did manage to one-shot Angvar Thistlecrit from "Cheat the Devil and Take his Gold" due to exploding dice damage, and Thuvalia had a blunderbuss, which she totally missed him with. He got the blunderbuss too, but so far hasn't hit anyone with it :-)
I read through your blog and off all the other comments I have to agree with one of your commenters on only one point. Guns in general do seem to me to be martial rather than exotic. But that is my opinion and I see where your getting yours from so I can't fault you for it.
On the other hand perhaps this might be a good idea for an Alkenstar Source book ans sort of a get the best of both worlds.
Combat Trait
Musketeer Born in Alkenstar, you were raise with a blackpowder gun in your hand. You may treat blackpowder handheld weapons and grenades as martial weapons rather than exotic.
You could just do a Pathfinder Chronicles guide and cover it all in there. Maybe a prestige class, or alternate class abilities for people who choose to use them (ranger, rogue and bard, im looking at you), and even some feat support.
That would be dreamy. Especially since there are so FEW good books for them at all. As written they are expensive, dangerous, and not that useful(?) but with a couple good feats, they would be awesome.
Id also love it if crossbows got some love -___-
right now im running a feat that says if you fire a firearm or crossbow as a full round action,and are within one range increment, you can ignore armor bonuses from manufactured armor. That, and high crit rates, helps make them feel a little stronger, and worth the one shot youll get in two rounds.
You could just do a Pathfinder Chronicles guide and cover it all in there. Maybe a prestige class, or alternate class abilities for people who choose to use them (ranger, rogue and bard, im looking at you), and even some feat support.
That would be dreamy. Especially since there are so FEW good books for them at all. As written they are expensive, dangerous, and not that useful(?) but with a couple good feats, they would be awesome.
Id also love it if crossbows got some love -___-
right now im running a feat that says if you fire a firearm or crossbow as a full round action,and are within one range increment, you can ignore armor bonuses from manufactured armor. That, and high crit rates, helps make them feel a little stronger, and worth the one shot youll get in two rounds.
For a little unofficial crossbow love... The Crossbow Thread
Rogue with Gun
This is a character from pbp that I'm in.
Stats were randomly rolled by the DM.
A lot of the starting money went into the pistols he carries.
Yes, a bow has more range, a crossbow does too.
But nothing says swashbuckler like a pistol and sword!
Garen Swifthand
Stats
STR 14
DEX 20
CON 14
INT 18
WIS 08
CHA 10
HP 24
BAB +2 (+4 melee; +7 ranged)
AC 19 (Mithral chain shirt + dex mod + 10)
Skills
Acrobatics +11
Appraise +10
Craft Alchemy +10 (for making gunpowder)
Craft Firearms +13 (for making the guns of course)
Crat Siege +10 (I wanna make cannons!)
Feats
Skill Focus - Craft Firearms
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Reload (takes it from a fullround to a move action to reload the firearm)
Equipment
Masterwork Pistol (rifled for range; 40' increment)
Pistol (x2)
Quickload Ammo (5 rounds)
*little bird flies in*
Tweet tweet look for something in this realm from Sinister Adventures twee tweet just not sure when tweet
*little bird flies out*
Never trust a man named Louis...wait a second...
FWIW, I would prefer no firearms at all in Golarian or any products set in Golarian. If Paizo wanted to come out with a stand alone Firearms supplement thats fine but I don't want to see firearms as part of the world or APs. I was already disappointed to see them mentioned in the CG in an off handed way, almost like they authors were bending over backwards to have "something for everyone". They just cause too many problems (as James cites above) and IMHO don't fit into a fantasy setting and you can simulate firearms just as well with magic. In fact I think it would be more interesting to see a magic based "gunslinger". Just my 2 cents...
Too late they're in the campaign setting...
They fit perfectly into certain types of fantasy settings...like Pirates of the Carribean isn't fantasy?
They aren't broken, if you don't allow reloading too fast.
I have liked the fantasy worlds where the innate magicalness caused some mundane chemical reactions (such as gunpowder, explosives internal combustion, etc) to be inert and not work except where there was a lack of magic. I can easily see this stuff working normally in Alkenstar, but the further away you got the harder it would be to get it to work, til you reached the point where the magic overrode the chemical reaction completely.
If we added firearms to the Advanced Player's Guide... it would be cool to add a gunslinger base class.
You could always add them in with the epic level book, and use Ms. Tendo from Grenadier as the design goalpost. *nods parsley... I mean sagely*
Oh, sure, I declare them OGL in their entirety, only excepting things like references to "Golarion" and "Alkenstar" which are Paizo PI. Enjoy!Cool thanks! I am sure you will see these rules in the upcoming Eberron / Spelljammer inspired mash up, Pirates of the Bronze Sky. Stay tuned and thanks again.
Cool! And if that didn't sell me, the honey on the teaser page did. :-)
Strangely enough, although I am what most people would consider a "gun nut" in real life, I cannot stand firearms in my fantasy (unless I'm playing Sci-fi). That's what archery and wizards are for. Firearms are far too complicated to add in as a core idea. And they add a whole other level of complexity to the game.
Strangely enough, although I am what most people would consider a "gun nut" in real life, I cannot stand firearms in my fantasy (unless I'm playing Sci-fi). That's what archery and wizards are for. Firearms are far too complicated to add in as a core idea. And they add a whole other level of complexity to the game.
Eh, so do cohorts, or, God forbid, psionics. Nothing wrong with having them as an optional ruleset you can use or not.
Not a fan of guns in the setting myself, but it could work in the APG I suppose.
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It all really depends on the setting you are trying to weave together. If you are shooting for a classic, high fantasy setting, then firearms probably won't mesh well (this is not to say it can't work). But a pirate oriented campaign, especially if you are modeling it after the Golden Age of piracy (especially the later sections of this historical period), firearms are almost a must.
Guns exist in my homebrew, but they are early firearms, just getting to the level where you have rifling. Cannons are a bit more advanced, as has been stated earlier, those are the first things to get built up by navies.
I have a floating island in my world where magic is so unstable and dangerous (due to hubris of archmages many centuries ago) that the peoples that live their can't use magic the way everyone else does. A spell there is as likely to detonate inside the caster as it is on the target (and that's a healing spell).
That is where my psionics comes from in my world, they use psionics and technology. They have flying ships that are built using psionically grown wood and planar wood and metal. They are powered by elementals bound into the ships (air to lift, fire to run the furnaces, water to supply drinking water, earth to reinforce the metal), bound by psionic power, not magic. They developed the first firearms, because they didn't depend on magic to work, and so they were safer to use on their islands.
well I'm halfway on topic..... has anyone ever checked out Treasure Trove 1 Spiros Blaak Arsenal? I know Green Ronin originally put out the D20 campaign setting. This book is supposed to offer a bunch of feats and black powder weapons for a D20 game. Its been sitting in my Lulu cart for a few weeks. Not sure if it is worth the purchase.
"Guns of Alkenstar" - very cool. Alkenstar is definitely the "Steampunk" capital of Golarion, and an AP or set of Modules based here would be great. In addition, they could introduce firearms on a local level without spreading them across Golarion, without making it part of the "Core" game. One assumes Alkenstar is the only place where guns could be made, and that at great cost, limiting their impact.
Spes Magna Games has rules for blackpowder weapons circa Age of Exploration period available in Fencing & Firearms.
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I personally am a fan of Steampunk and love it in my D&D, Pathfinder, etc. games. I think it adds a lot more flavor to game and allows for things like pirates, mad scientists, and snipers. I just treat them like crossbows, for everything (including reload times) except that they have a 20 x3 critical and that they are all simple (exotic if in an area that really doesn't know what they are) weapons.
Hand Crossbow = Pistol
Light Crossbow = Musket
Heavy Crossbow = Rifle
I have never had an issue with them, no one has ever been more powerful than anyone else. I don't think firearms need to be something all powerful, people just want them so they can make swashbucklers, pirates, snipers, etc. not to become these great warrior of black powder.
I don't see why people have issues with firearms in any form of fantasy, even high fantasy. Why can't the guns just be magical by nature. Instead of this huge scientific thing that is really complex and hard to deal with, manufacture, and use have them just be crossbows that shoot sling bullets with magic.
I think people who try to over complicate something in a world were dragons and trolls exist are just silly. Why couldn't a gun exist when there are vials of napalm (Alchemist Fire), flamethrowers (burning hands), and missile launchers (magic missiles) floating around, among other things.