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From reading these boards, its become obvious that people typically have two opinions about what a Summoner should be. One group is quite happy for the most part at having an awesome Eidolon. The other group wonders where all the summoning is. This split progression would allow both types to be played at the bargain basement price of a single class!
At first level, the Summoner would decide between two progressions/styles of play. Paladins, Druids, Rangers, and to a lesser extent Wizards and Sorcerers do this already. To one side would be Extraplanar Bond. That's basically where the class is now. The one major change would be a reduction in SLA summons to only 1+Cha per day.
The second option would be Arcane Menagerie and this is where the major departure begins. A Summoner who chose this path would have an Eidolon that advanced only as a typical Familiar. However, the Eidolon would augment the Summoner's ability to reach through the aether and summon monsters. This version would have 3+Cha SLA summons per day, increasing by 1 every fifth level. At 10th lvl, the Summoner could have a maximum of two active at a time and three at lvl 20. [Note: Perhaps three at 15 and four at 20?] The Menagerist would also have the standard action cast time and 1 minute/level duration restored. He would also know one more spell per level and be able to cast one more of each level [Note: Or be able to receive bonus spells per level for a high Cha.]
Thoughts?
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I see where your going with this and I like the concept but from what I have seen and read so far more is definitely NOT better.
Summon Monster as a single creature is fine within the confines of the spell but as you level up this becomes blurred. Firstly the monsters get stronger, second the spell opens up for weaker versions with more monsters summoned. Its this second part which mostly hurts your idea of 3 (or 4) summoned spells at a time. At higher levels the summoner could still have 15-20 creatures on the battlefield from his SLA ability alone that last up to 20 minutes each, sure they may not last as long as the tougher creatures but thats not the point - its how long the DM must devote his time to the player of the summoned creatures to other players.
Then you can add in normal summoned spells, summoned spells from wands and staves and anything else the summoner might have to call creatures to fight for him.
So while it would be nice to have a class that can summon a small army, game wise its very difficult to balance and around the gaming table its just not realistic and it certainly isn't fair to the other players.
The second option would be Arcane Menagerie and this is where the major departure begins. A Summoner who chose this path would have an Eidolon that advanced only as a typical Familiar. However, the Eidolon would augment the Summoner's ability to reach through the aether and summon monsters. This version would have 3+Cha SLA summons per day, increasing by 1 every fifth level. At 10th lvl, the Summoner could have a maximum of two active at a time and three at lvl 20. [Note: Perhaps three at 15 and four at 20?] The Menagerist would also have the standard action cast time and 1 minute/level duration restored. He would also know one more spell per level and be able to cast one more of each level [Note: Or be able to receive bonus spells per level for a high Cha.]
Thoughts?
I really like your scheme here. It's apparent that summoners who focus their resources on the eidolon (as they currently stand) have little need for extra little summons in combat.
If they're forfeiting the eidolon's ridiculous power, it seems like it'd be quite fair to give access to 2 summons at once at 1st level, with an additional one at 10th. I know people worry about battlefield clutter, but limiting it to 2 or 3 at a time is hardly backbreaking, and makes for a cool character.
For the route you're suggesting, I'd also make note of the level 20 wizard conjuration specialist ability - make one summon spell have permanent duration. It sounds like an excellent ability for this variant of the class. Something like:
Once per day at 5th level, the summoner may use his summon monster spell-like ability with a duration of 24 hours instead of 1 min/level. He may only have one spell active this way at a time.
Quijenoth: Battlefield clutter is bad, but with responsible play, limits on the number of active summons, and proper DM enforcement, it won't get out of hand. My level 12 cleric necromancer has no less than 5 units with him at all times. I keep them in order, and the game never slows down.
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Thanks for the thoughtful replies.
I'm hesitant to give the Menagerist two actives right off the bat. I'd rather let that kick in a 5th level. How about Augment Summoning as a bonus feat at lvl 1 instead? Then they add to their available summons at 5th, 12th, and 20th.
Getting a 24 hour summon at lvl 5 seeming makes them just have a somewhat underpowered Eidolon. Or at least a buffed (Celestial Template) Druid AniCom. I'd have that as a 10th lvl ability. Or we can make occasional boosts to duration. Powerful Summoning at 5th lvl: Once per day, the Menagerist may increase the duration of one Summon Monster SLA to one hour. This increases by one hour for every 5 levels until 15th. At 20th level the Menagerist may summon one monster with a duration of 24 hours.
I'd like to leave clutter problems to individual DM's to deal with as they see fit. Some people like Maeloke have no issue managing a few summons at a time. Some people will get help from other players or the DM.
i also did a progression for a summoner focused on, well summoning. My progression is more centered around adding abilities to your summons or using your summons in new ways. I think this approach is more interesting than the simple "more summons" way, but much harder to balance.
my progression can be found here near the end of the wall of text my first post is.
i've not increased the number of active summons, even if i have no problem with managing more than one summon, and most well prepared players will have none. Yet in most combats 1 summon of your highest level will be enough to handle your part of the combat, espec. if you throw some buffs in. for those situations where you want (or need) more summons you could simply use your normal spell slots.
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That's an interesting idea that I'm totally willing to explore. What sort of abilities are we talking?
Honestly, I don't want to add too much. The feeling I get from other posters is that they want something summon focused. The number of summons I've allowed for the Menagerist is enough to summon at least once in pretty much every encounter of a given day for most campaigns. That's, I think, the feeling people want.
Thanks for the thoughtful replies.
I'm hesitant to give the Menagerist two actives right off the bat. I'd rather let that kick in a 5th level. How about Augment Summoning as a bonus feat at lvl 1 instead? Then they add to their available summons at 5th, 12th, and 20th.
Getting a 24 hour summon at lvl 5 seeming makes them just have a somewhat underpowered Eidolon. Or at least a buffed (Celestial Template) Druid AniCom. I'd have that as a 10th lvl ability. Or we can make occasional boosts to duration. Powerful Summoning at 5th lvl: Once per day, the Menagerist may increase the duration of one Summon Monster SLA to one hour. This increases by one hour for every 5 levels until 15th. At 20th level the Menagerist may summon one monster with a duration of 24 hours.
I like augment summoning at 1st level; given it's absolutely the first feat anyone taking this path will shoot for, it only makes sense to just include it rather than deprive the caster of a summon choice.
In the interests of linear progressions, but not allowing *too* many summons at once, perhaps permit a 2nd active at 6, 3rd at 12, and a 4th at 18? With augment summoning and 1 min/level duration, that seems like an adequate replacement for the eidolon's fighting ability. It just seems unfair to make a summoner dependent on a single easily-dispelled critter. Especially when everyone can dispel at higher levels.
I suppose a full 24 hr summon *does* tread a bit back into eidolon/animal companion territory. I'd still like to reach a point where the summoner can call up a rideable critter and have it stick around long enough for traveling. Perhaps an ability like
'Once per day starting at 10th level, the summoner may elect to extend the duration of his summon monster spell-like ability to 1 hour/level. If he uses this ability, he casts the Summon Monster version two steps lower than his maximum (if he normally can cast Summon Monster 5, he may only extend Summon Monster 3 or lower using this ability).'
i also did a progression for a summoner focused on, well summoning. My progression is more centered around adding abilities to your summons or using your summons in new ways. I think this approach is more interesting than the simple "more summons" way, but much harder to balance.
I really like your progression in there - especially how you've replaced eidolon utility with abilities relating to the summoned monsters. I think your replacement for the aspect class abilities is a bit odd, since the mass summoner version of the class makes no use of evolution points (at least as I've been envisioning it). I think more straightforward bonuses to summon resilience would be much easier to parse and simpler to use. Stuff like greater SR versus dispelling/banishment, or Augment Summoning benefits being replaced by the advanced simple template from the bestiary.
I notice that despite your stance against multiple summoned critters, you've included that Legion Summoner ability, which seems far more powerful than being able to have 2 summon SLA's active at once. Would you be opposed to putting that ability into YuenglingDragon's proposed progression?
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I think you are right on track! This is an excellent solution to the diverse requests for different ideas of what a summoner is. Not everyone wants their summoner to be a Eidolon only style character. And not everyone else wants a Summoner who spends his combat time casting summon monsters. This sounds like an excellent solution to the two types of play that people seem to be requesting in posts! Bravo! Bravo!
You, sir, have made me blush.
I like augment summoning at 1st level; given it's absolutely the first feat anyone taking this path will shoot for, it only makes sense to just include it rather than deprive the caster of a summon choice.
Yeah, its a good right-off-the-bat reason to take the class. Getting Spell Focus (Conjuration) isn't something that everyone will want to get since so much on the spell list has no DC.
In the interests of linear progressions, but not allowing *too* many summons at once, perhaps permit a 2nd active at 6, 3rd at 12, and a 4th at 18? With augment summoning and 1 min/level duration, that seems like an adequate replacement for the eidolon's fighting ability. It just seems unfair to make a summoner dependent on a single easily-dispelled critter. Especially when everyone can dispel at higher levels.
I mostly agree. I'll note only that with a standard action cast time having your summons go poof is not such a hardship as it is for a Conjurer or Eidolon-focused Summoner. You're basically trading turns. There should be a progression for this, I'm just not sure what speed and what end number is the most balanced. We'll give this some further thought.
I suppose a full 24 hr summon *does* tread a bit back into eidolon/animal companion territory. I'd still like to reach a point where the summoner can call up a rideable critter and have it stick around long enough for traveling. Perhaps an ability like
'Once per day starting at 10th level, the summoner may elect to extend the duration of his summon monster spell-like ability to 1 hour/level. If he uses this ability, he casts the Summon Monster version two steps lower than his maximum (if he normally can cast Summon Monster 5, he may only extend Summon Monster 3 or lower using this...
See that's not so bad. What I like particularly about this is that a Summon III is not likely to last long in the kind of encounter a lvl 10+ would expect. That means that the Summoner would be far more likely to use this ability on something that adds utility, not bad assery. I could see myself using a Lantern Archon to splash around Aid and Detect Evil or a Dire Bat to quietly transport the party one at a time over a wall or something. The Summoner could technically try to use it as a mount but would have to have a pretty good ride check and Mounted Combat or risk falling after the first hit.
I really like your progression in there - especially how you've replaced eidolon utility with abilities relating to the summoned monsters. I think your replacement for the aspect class abilities is a bit odd, since the mass summoner version of the class makes no use of evolution points (at least as I've been envisioning it). I think more straightforward bonuses to summon resilience would be much easier to parse and simpler to use. Stuff like greater SR versus dispelling/banishment, or Augment Summoning benefits being replaced by the advanced simple template from the bestiary.I notice that despite your stance against multiple summoned critters, you've included that Legion Summoner ability, which seems far more powerful than being able to have 2 summon SLA's active at once. Would you be opposed to putting that ability into YuenglingDragon's proposed progression?
with the replacement for aspect ( which is just aspect as a short duration buff, but also for your allies) i wanted to give the summoner the ability to do something usefull with his summon monster spell-likes even if he doesn't want to "summon" for some reason - for ex. his limit for summons is reached, clogging isses etc.) also at this point the summoner starts having nearly everything related to summoning. higher duration augument summoning, resistance against banishment and Protection from element. most things left on that track would just have been more of the same.
Also I'm not against multiple summons per se, i just don't think it is really neccessary to bring the ability back ( i would be totaly fine with it though) let alone focus the summoning summoner around this.
I myself play a character focused on summoning and sometimes have about 4 -7 Creatures on the plan (4 Summons + Bind +me +Reserve feat+ X) whitout slowing the game down. But i also know that in most fights 1 summon monster was enough to handle the situation. Also with the summoner as given you will soon be running around with 3 Pieces on the board all the time + 2 being summoned by just 1 spell. ( Summoner + Eidolon + Binded Monser + Summon+ Legion)
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There are certainly more ideas about how a Summoner should be played than just these two. But I don't think we'll have three different progressions so I'm focusing on these two which seem the most popular.
I think that people should have a version of the Summoner that is focused on Summoning. Your progression at first blush seems wildly overpowered. By my reading you still get the Eidolon you just don't interact with it like the as-given Summoner. But you do get to do similar (and better) things with Summons. It seems unbalanced. I do like some of the ideas. I'm not sure I particularly like Legion as it doesn't quite have the menagerie flavor but rather seems like you'd be focused on summoning a very small selection of monsters. I think I'd like to add in my SLA progression that you cannnot select the same monster when you are allowed multiples. I think it would be very flavorful and fun.
There are certainly more ideas about how a Summoner should be played than just these two. But I don't think we'll have three different progressions so I'm focusing on these two which seem the most popular.
I think that people should have a version of the Summoner that is focused on Summoning. Your progression at first blush seems wildly overpowered. By my reading you still get the Eidolon you just don't interact with it like the as-given Summoner. But you do get to do similar (and better) things with Summons. It seems unbalanced. I do like some of the ideas. I'm not sure I particularly like Legion as it doesn't quite have the menagerie flavor but rather seems like you'd be focused on summoning a very small selection of monsters. I think I'd like to add in my SLA progression that you cannnot select the same monster when you are allowed multiples. I think it would be very flavorful and fun.
I can't say whether it is overpowered, i haven't playtested it and put it together in quite short time. Most abilities i used are borrowed from other classes ( or feats) based on summoning. I would really like to discuss what specificaly is unbalanced in this progression and work to improve it. But that discussion is best located in my thread, for easy reference :)
Here's a quick glance over the gain / loose ration based on level
loose - gain
1st: durability for your Eidolon - minor fast healing for your summons
2nd:sharing senses with Eidolon - telepatic connection to summons
4th: +2Ac/Saves if your eidolon is with you - augument summoning
6th: recalling your eidolon (mostly for survivability /protection) - free extend spell and resistance to the main "summon killers"
8th: switching places with eidolon - switching places wit hsummons, but "killing" them
10th: evolutions for yourself - same with limited duration but for allies too (maybe also deprive the Eidolon of Evolution points to balance it out more)
12th: +2Ac/Saves for you and Party - additional Monster of certain alignment
14th: being unkillable as long as Eidolon survives - healing oneself by killing summons
16th: merge forms- get out of the heat for some time
18th : same as 10th
20th: double your eidolons power - very limited dominate
1st:
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It's not so much the abilities that concern me as the versatility inherent in switching places with a rather higher number of things. You could summon 2-5 Eagles and switch places with them repeatedly during a fight. Without burning as many Dimension Doors.
I think a number of these abilities are very interesting and I think a Menagerist should love to have them but I think losing the Eidolon (except as a Tiny Familiar) is fair to balance it out.
you may use it exactly as often as the normal transposition Power, but yes, using your SLA to summon 1d4+1 low level critters to change places with might be to much gain in versatility for too low costs. maybe not only dismiss the creature, but the spell that called it ( so every transposition will cost you a full use of your SLA) ?
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Another thought.
Some people have also posted that they envisioned a sort army of summoned critters doing the Summoners bidding. What if we created additional summon-like abilities that could be used in place of an Summon SLA. For example:
Storm of Eagles:
The summoner may expend the use of one Summon Monster Spell like ability to create a horde of Eagles that descend on an enemy before disappearing. This attack deals 1d4 damage per Summoner level (max 10). If the summoner is Good aligned, this attack deals 1 additional damage per die to Evil creatures. If the summoner is Evil aligned, this attack deals 1 additional damage per die to Good creatures. A Neutral Summoner may choose which he performs at the time of casting.
A similar ability called Pack of Wolves could do a somewhat lesser number of D6's (or the same number and become available later) and force the target to take a reflex save or be knocked prone or it could have its own CMB and a d20 roll like Black Tentacles.
I'm with YuenglingDragon - if you're going to be serious about the summon-monster end of the summoner, you need to cut out the eidolon completely. Leaving it in, no matter how you ratchet down on the abilities you use to interact with it, is just asking for trouble. There have been half a hundred threads here discussing how the eidolon is unfairly proximate in power level to a PC class, and cutting out some ancillary summoner interactions for them isn't going to weaken them nearly enough to justify a boost to summon powers. Remember, the 300-damage-per-round eidolon builds make no note of any summoner...
Here's a quick glance over the gain / loose ration based on level
loose - gain
1st: durability for your Eidolon - minor fast healing for your summons
2nd:sharing senses with Eidolon - telepatic connection to summons
4th: +2Ac/Saves if your eidolon is with you - augument summoning
6th: recalling your eidolon (mostly for survivability /protection) - free extend spell and resistance to the main "summon killers"
8th: switching places with eidolon - switching places wit hsummons, but "killing" them
10th: evolutions for yourself - same with limited duration but for allies too (maybe also deprive the Eidolon of Evolution points to balance it out more)
12th: +2Ac/Saves for you and Party - additional Monster of certain alignment
14th: being unkillable as long as Eidolon survives - healing oneself by killing summons
16th: merge forms- get out of the heat for some time
18th : same as 10th
20th: double your eidolons power - very limited dominate
Pardon me if I engage this list in this thread - your original one is kinda buried in commentary about several other summoner issues.
Suppose we're looking to fully cut and replace the eidolon with powers focused on the monster summoning - what sort of changes would we have to make to this progression to make the summoner appealing to play? I like your general framework of paralleling eidolon ability development, but if you have as much experience with summoners as you say, you've got to have a sense for what would be within the bounds of 'reasonable power' if one could *only* summon monsters.
Here's my own uneducated scheme, which admittedly borrows heavily from your own:
1: fast, extend (1 min/lv), augment summoning, SM 3+cha/day (1 at a time)
2: share senses, telepathy (easy order giving to summons)
4: resistance to summon-killer spells
6: extra creature from each summon SLA (still only 1 spell at a time)
8: pop summon SLA to switch places with any creature created by it, extended (1 hr/lv) summon at lower level (see above)
10: all summons receive advanced simple template
12: summon 2nd extra creature from each summon SLA
14: heal self by popping summoned critter
16: further improve resistance to summon-killers
18: summon 3rd extra creature from each summon SLA
20: 24 hr summon, quicken summon monster SLA 3/day.
the main issue of taking away the Eidolon is that with it you take away about 50% (if not more) of the summoners power. and it gets way harder to give him those 50% of power back ( as opposed to the additional 10-20% from the eidolon focused abilities ) so more drastivc changes would need to take place, like giving the summoner 9 level spell progression or s.th. on these lines.
the main issue of taking away the Eidolon is that with it you take away about 50% (if not more) of the summoners power. and it gets way harder to give him those 50% of power back ( as opposed to the additional 10-20% from the eidolon focused abilities ) so more drastivc changes would need to take place, like giving the summoner 9 level spell progression or s.th. on these lines.
I'm sure there's no truly appropriate way to balance summoner power sans eidolon. But then, PF has never pretended to be completely fair about replacement abilities; a single cleric domain is never fully worth the loss of a druid's animal companion; it's just a choice, in the event an animal companion doesn't work with the campaign or character's concept.
So: I'm fine with losing 50-60% of a summoner's power with the eidolon and associated perks and replacing it with 30-50% power's worth of improved summon monster capabilities. It doesn't have to be *as* good, it just has to be good, or even exciting in its own right.
On that note: does the prospect of summoning 3 augmented, advanced, huge fire elementals as a standard action at level 12 sound fun? Does it sound powerful? Or does it just sound broken?
EDIT: Thinking about it, I can probably answer my own question. So what do we change?
it actually sounds too strong. thats like an lvl 8 spell + advanced template, so pretty close to level 9.
Eh, you could pull it off as a level 7.5 spell too - but *any* wizard could do that. I'm trying to push summoner power here, so help me draw a line. Do we leave it at 1 summoned creature at a time, but give the advanced template starting level 1? Do they get 1 additional creature at 10? Does doing so burn an additional use of their SLA?
How do we make being a level 1 summoner without an eidolon *not* suck?
quick guess would be no limit on consecutive summons, augument at 1, advanced at 5 extra creature at 10.
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I like the idea of the split progression, and agree that they should be mutually exclusive branches of the same class. Either you put all your eggs in one basket with a super pet and back it up with your spellcasting, or you become a master of summoning and back it up with other spells too.
Some things the summoner side might have to replace Eidolon related powers:
Add the simple advanced template
Add the simple giant template
empowered or maximized summons for the SLA
share spells with summoned creatures
And i totally agree with you Maeloke, however i want the summoning power boosted as well.
From what i have seen on threads being posted. The Summoning power was destroyed for what it was by the rule changes because of "hypothetical" Situations. When the real power gaming was shown by posts like those you described 300-damager-per-round eidolons. The summoning even if it was more than 1 creature at a time with standard action and minutes per level, was never a problem to begin with.Rarely people have time to go scout up ahead to see theirs a big bad guy waiting for them. Confirm its a big bad guy not a innocent or a helper. Run away summon and army and go back. Fights spring up on most parties, and if not then perhaps this a easily fixed DM problem not a class problem. Pathfinder Society does a great job not giving you to much of a heads up on combats. Unless you're a big time meta-gamer.
The way i see a real world example is that you spring up a fight, its worthless to summon 1d4+1 in MOST cases because the summoned creatures are so weak they would not make any difference in a combat at that CR. However, looking at the boards the Elidolon has been stronger at nearly ever level then fighters and barbarians, to a drastic degree with 8 or 9 attacks doing god knows what damage with the same Attack bonuses or better than fighters...
This split progression idea at the minimum fixes this for people who want to role play a summoner who summons, rather than (In my opinion) a Elidolon with a PC companion.
You phrase this like we're disagreeing, but we're not. I want to cut the eidolon entirely from this menagerie summoner's build, and replace it with powers that play well with the summon monster SLA. I was arguing against the idea of leaving the eidolon, because the thing is too powerful *regardless* of the summoner's abilities that relate to it.
Now, the potential to go nova with summon spells was a legitimate concern for me and many others, especially when the summoner had an eidolon and untouched spell suite to fall back on after burning 4-8 summoned monsters. Perhaps in your games this is irrelevant, but my players are a cagey, cautious bunch, and they *usually* know a fight is coming before it hits.
So, while we've been discussing re-ramping summoner power, we've left the limit on # of active summons going at once. That's to make up for fast summoning, longer duration, and other boosts like augment summoning. Trust me, I have every intent to make this side of the progression a good one.
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I'm new to the boards so forgive me if the question is dumb. Out of sheerest curiosity (since I would do this until we are happy with what we hammer out and have it all down in a readable format), is there a mechanism to draw Jason's attention to something? I haven't noticed any way to PM on these boards and I suspect he'd disable his anyway. Do we just hope that someone takes note of and considers what we're creating here?
I'm new to the boards so forgive me if the question is dumb. Out of sheerest curiosity (since I would do this until we are happy with what we hammer out and have it all down in a readable format), is there a mechanism to draw Jason's attention to something? I haven't noticed any way to PM on these boards and I suspect he'd disable his anyway. Do we just hope that someone takes note of and considers what we're creating here?
Yep, pretty much. I doubt he's got the time or interest to follow every thread that gets started, but so long as this one stays lively, there's decent odds he'll check in on what we're doing.
Or if that doesn't work out, we can all just settle on a cool build and agree to houserule it in when the final summoner comes out :D
I apologize, i have edited my statement a little. I was not disagreeing with you at all. When i first started i knew when all the combats were coming. I can not say this is the same for your players as I am not at your table. But when players at my tables know for a fact a combat is coming, it is usually coming from meta-gaming knowledge. That is not to say that there are not opportunities occasionally where there were not fights coming that were role played. But I do not believe its enough to make that drastic of a change to a summoner.
I think the arguments on the boards are pretty solid regardless. My group likes their scouting, sensory magic, divination, and ridiculous perception checks, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of encounters in every game where the players can prepare themselves. Minute/level summoning makes it *really* easy to summon up a pile of (elementals/fiendish eagles/celestial dire tigers) to rush into the (hobgoblin/goblin/demon) encampment. This takes all the strategy out of an otherwise balanced encounter. If we're fronting power on summon spells, it behooves us to control the summoner's ability to spit out 3/4 of his magical power before the start of a single encounter.
As things stand, with minute/level duration summons, a 9th level summoner could conjure up a good 8 augmented, advanced, dispel resistant large air elementals and rip through a day-long dungeon at a sprint, tagging along just to cast haste before each fight. That's *silly*, but without limits, its waay too easy to do.
I'm new to the boards so forgive me if the question is dumb. Out of sheerest curiosity (since I would do this until we are happy with what we hammer out and have it all down in a readable format), is there a mechanism to draw Jason's attention to something? I haven't noticed any way to PM on these boards and I suspect he'd disable his anyway. Do we just hope that someone takes note of and considers what we're creating here?Yep, pretty much. I doubt he's got the time or interest to follow every thread that gets started, but so long as this one stays lively, there's decent odds he'll check in on what we're doing.
Or if that doesn't work out, we can all just settle on a cool build and agree to houserule it in when the final summoner comes out :D
i think the chances of seeing an official split-focus Summoner are pretty slim at best for one simple reason: Word count. The Summoner takes up a whole lot of space as he is, and i think we will see some new evolutions and some restrictions/clarifications on the ones more prone to abuse, as well as new spells ( at least 1 , retransmorgify was already hinted at)
so all the more reason to make this good :)
i think the chances of seeing an official split-focus Summoner are pretty slim at best for one simple reason: Word count. The Summoner takes up a whole lot of space as he is, and i think we will see some new evolutions and some restrictions/clarifications on the ones more prone to abuse, as well as new spells ( at least 1 , retransmorgify was already hinted at)
so all the more reason to make this good :)
A tragically pragmatic, if insightful observation. On the other hand, the real bulk of the summoner text is consumed by the eidolon and its massive list of abilities. Our little build doesn't need to establish a whole new creature type, just refer to spells, feats, and templates that already exist. You could leave the summoner and his progression exactly how it is, and then lay out our whole thing in significantly less than a page. Here, I'll demonstrate:
Menagerist Summoner: Most summoners specialize in a single eidolon, but a few choose to study summoning more broadly. Such summoners do not gain the services of an eidolon, nor any of the abilities that relate to them (life link, bond senses, shield ally, maker's call, transposition, aspect, greater shield ally, life bond, merge forms, greater aspect, and twin eidolon). Instead, they gain a variety of abilities that improve their Summon Monster spells and spell-like ability. Such summoners are called Menagerists.
Enhanced Summoning (Su): At 1st level, a menagerist's summon monster spell-like ability has a duration of 1 minute per level (rather than 1 round) and it may be cast as a standard action (instead of a full round action). However, he may still only have one such Summon Monster spell active at a time (he may cast any number from his regular spell list, as usual).
Augment summoning (Ex): a menagerist gains Augment Summoning as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Mental Bond (Su): At 2nd level, a menagerist is able to form a mental bond with any creature he summons. This enables him to perceive through its senses as long as it remains within 100 ft., and allows him to direct any number of his summoned creatures within 100 ft. as a free action.
Resistant Summoning (Su): At 4th level, the menagerist's caster level is treated as 2 higher against attempts to dispel creatures he has summoned. Additionally, any creature the menagerist summons gains a +2 bonus to will saves against the Banishment and Dismissal spells.
Advanced Summoning (Su): At 6th level, any creature the menagerist summons gains the advanced simple template.
Transposition (Su): At 8th level, as a standard action the summoner may dismiss a currently active summon spell and move to a square previously occupied by a creature from that spell, as though he had cast Dimension Door. He may use this ability once per day, plus once more at 10th and every 4 levels thereafter.
Legion Summoning (Su): At 10th level, whenever a menagerist uses his Summon Monster spell-like ability, he summons an additional creature of whatever type he chooses to conjure.
Persistent Summoning (Su): At 12th level, the summoner may choose to extend his Summon Monster spell-like ability to a duration of 1 hour/level. If he does so, he casts the version of Summon Monster two levels lower than his normal maximum (if he could normally cast Summon monster VII, he is limited to Summon Monster V when using this ability).
Improved Resistant Summoning (Su): Also at 12th level, the menagerist and his summoned creatures' bonuses from the Resistant Summoning ability improve to +4.
Life Channel (Su): At 14th level, a menagerist may dismiss his Summon Monster spell-like ability as an immediate action to heal 1 HP for every 3 a single dismissed creature possessed (he may only use one creature for this, no matter how many were summoned and subsequently dismissed).
Embedded Summoning (Su): At 16th level, a menagerist may expend a single target (harmless) spell as he uses his Summon Monster spell-like ability. If he does, he may have the creature appear with that spell effecting it, as though it were just cast. Mass versions of spells may be used as well, to effect multiple creatures summoned with the same spell.
Swift Summoning (Su): At 18th level, a menagerist may use his Summon Monster spell-like ability as a swift action 3 times per day.
Perfect Summoner: At 20th level, all of a menagerist's summoned creatures within 30 ft. gain SR 30 and a +2 bonus to will saves that stacks with the resistant summoning bonuses. Additionally, he may use his Persistent Summoning ability at his full summoning capability (that is, Summon Monster IX).
Okay, that ended up being longer than I was thinking it would. Hm. Well, what do people think of it anyway?
i still think that completly leaving out the eidolon is not only too much of a hit to the summoner (the animal companion replaced is a secondary class feature of the Druid, the eidolon is the main class feature of the summoner, even before the spells) it also robys him of his uniqueness. with only the special abilities outlined above he's something like a wizard really specialized in summoning, but with fewer spells. he has nothing that really sets him apart from other classes. so i would say thsi would be better as a focus for a specialized Wizard Prestige class (like master specialist. hes specializing on 1 sub-school :) )
simply see the eidolon as an persistent summons.
If you think that having an Eidolon and being good at summoning would be too good for our Menagerist, i would suggest simply delaying the eidolon Progression, maybe by 4 levels (A menagerist summoner counts as 4 levels lower for the purpose of his Eidolons Abilities), that means the first time he can summon an Eidolon at all would be at 5th level. so we would need s.th. to help him out at the very early levels. ( maybe he has an eidolon with 1 HD and Young template at 1st & 2nd(1EP) , 1HD and 1 EP at 3rd and 2HD and 1EP or 1HD and 2 EP at 4th level?
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You could leave the summoner and his progression exactly how it is, and then lay out our whole thing in significantly less than a page. Here, I'll demonstrate:
** spoiler omitted **...
I would play something along those lines. Very nice!
I think adding some alignment channeling might be good too. You could either heal your summoned creatures when you summon outsiders or harm someone else's. Maybe as a bonus having it apply to creatures with the celestial/fiendish template later down the level progression?
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i still think that completly leaving out the eidolon is not only too much of a hit to the summoner (the animal companion replaced is a secondary class feature of the Druid, the eidolon is the main class feature of the summoner, even before the spells) it also robys him of his uniqueness. with only the special abilities outlined above he's something like a wizard really specialized in summoning, but with fewer spells. he has nothing that really sets him apart from other classes. so i would say thsi would be better as a focus for a specialized Wizard Prestige class (like master specialist. hes specializing on 1 sub-school :) )
simply see the eidolon as an persistent summons.
The Eidolon is far better than a persistent summon. Anyway, Legion and Persistent Summoning are unique abilities as far as I know, as is Life Channel. I don't know that it needs to be that unique to just fill a role that someone imagines for it. This kind of Summoner seems to be something that people want to play. The spell list is limited but I think that's ok balanced on the ability of this guy to drop some pretty bad ass, difficult to get rid of summonings. Also, my original idea was to increase the summoners spells known and spells per day by one if he chooses the Arcane Menagerie focus.
If you think that having an Eidolon and being good at summoning would be too good for our Menagerist, i would suggest simply delaying the eidolon Progression, maybe by 4 levels (A menagerist summoner counts as 4 levels lower for the purpose of his Eidolons Abilities), that means the first time he can summon an Eidolon at all would be at 5th level. so we would need s.th. to help him out at the very early levels. ( maybe he has an eidolon with 1 HD and Young template at 1st & 2nd(1EP) , 1HD and 1 EP at 3rd and 2HD and 1EP or 1HD and 2 EP at 4th level?
I think giving him an Eidolon that works as a familiar (tiny size, same progression, takes the basic form of one creature from the Wizard list)is enough. It's still around but its focus is to assist in casting.
The Eidolon is still more powerful than an AniCom so I'm not sure its fair to give the Menagerist an Eidolon like a Ranger gets an AniCom.
I like the idea of giving the summoner a lesser lesser planner binding. 3 HD, lvl 2/3 spell. Enough to get imps and mephits to do your bidding early on when its fun to have little minions.
Also, you can give them bonueses to the charisma checks for planner binding.
i still think that completly leaving out the eidolon is not only too much of a hit to the summoner (the animal companion replaced is a secondary class feature of the Druid, the eidolon is the main class feature of the summoner, even before the spells) it also robys him of his uniqueness. with only the special abilities outlined above he's something like a wizard really specialized in summoning, but with fewer spells. he has nothing that really sets him apart from other classes. so i would say thsi would be better as a focus for a specialized Wizard Prestige class (like master specialist. hes specializing on 1 sub-school :) )
The trouble here is, look at the summoner not as an eidolon lackey, but as a conjuration-specialized wizard. With respect to summoning, this build is obscenely *more* powerful than such a wizard, even without a familiar around. The summon monster spell-like ability is essentially 5-10 bonus spells of the highest level a wizard could cast... imagine getting to 5th level and having 6 or 7 fireballs on top of your regular spell list. It's almost degenerate.
You may be right about this being a bit too specialized, and better suited for a prestige class. On the other hand, one thing I really like about PF is the consistent awesomeness of the core classes. I've been thinking of this build a lot more along the lines of a sorcerer bloodline than as an entirely separate class, albeit with a somewhat more dramatic bloodline difference.
Lacking unique features is a point in favor of this being a variant option for summoners. If it did too much new stuff, it would be better as a prestige or separate core class. As it is, it's enough for flavor and gameplay difference, but still very much a pure concept summoner... the one many of us wanted to play when we heard about the class.
The Eidolon is far better than a persistent summon. Anyway, Legion and Persistent Summoning are unique abilities as far as I know, as is Life Channel. I don't know that it needs to be that unique to just fill a role that someone imagines for it. This kind of Summoner seems to be something that people want to play. The spell list is limited but I think that's ok balanced on the ability of this guy to drop some pretty bad ass, difficult to get rid of summonings. Also, my original idea was to increase the summoners spells known and spells per day by one if he chooses the Arcane Menagerie focus.
I was thinking of automatically giving them the Summon Monster X spell for free at each level, but I'm leery of increasing their actual spellcasting power any more. Like I said above, these guys can beat a specialized wizard at summoning with both hands tied behind their back, plus they've got d8 HD, cleric BAB, and light armor.
As for your familiar notion, are you suggesting they gain a familiar as a wizard? I can't tell if you just want the 1/2 hp keep-this-guy-hidden thing, or just a tiny eidolon. Familiar might be okay (if random, as we're kinda dismissing the I-focus-on-one-creature deal) but I maintain my stance against proper eidolons of any size or HD modification.
I think adding some alignment channeling might be good too. You could either heal your summoned creatures when you summon outsiders or harm someone else's. Maybe as a bonus having it apply to creatures with the celestial/fiendish template later down the level progression?
How about something like:
Restoration (Su): As a standard action at 8th level, a menagerist may spend a use of his Summon Monster spell-like ability to heal all of his summoned creatures within 30 ft. for HP equal to twice his level.
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I was thinking of automatically giving them the Summon Monster X spell for free at each level, but I'm leery of increasing their actual spellcasting power any more. Like I said above, these guys can beat a specialized wizard at summoning with both hands tied behind their back, plus they've got d8 HD, cleric BAB, and light armor.
Well, I liked the idea of giving them an extra buff or something. I hadn't though of them just getting Summon Monster yet again. I don't know if more spellcasting is necessary or not. Despite starting a thread on a more casty Summoner, the Summoner I'm playing now is literally the first caster I've ever played, being a hack and slasher mostly myself. Someone more clever than me ought to make a 6th level Menagerist that I can play test against some hypothetical beasties and PC's. Or I'll get some help from my group and we'll playtest it a bit.
As for your familiar notion, are you suggesting they gain a familiar as a wizard? I can't tell if you just want the 1/2 hp keep-this-guy-hidden thing, or just a tiny eidolon. Familiar might be okay (if random, as we're kinda dismissing the I-focus-on-one-creature deal) but I maintain my stance against proper eidolons of any size or HD modification.
Well, I just figured we ought not remove a class feature so much as change the way it works, i.e. Eidolon helps the Summoner summon. Of course, if that was the mechanic, then we'd have to worry about the little f'er dying and screwing up summoning. Not sure if that's even a can we want to open. It's probably a trap anyway.
I'm cool with it either way.
I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere:
Why not ditch the Eldonon altogether and do the same thing that Druids do with animal companions?
You get either a stripped down outsider that gets bumped up at 4 or 7th level, or you get a less powerful outsider that gets a bump at 4th or 7th.
This formula is already in force and you are just applying it to a new class.
I think I'd be more interesting for me, as a player, to get a companion I recognize as opposed to an mutating blob that has a new rules set.
...Just a thought
I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere:
Why not ditch the Eldonon altogether and do the same thing that Druids do with animal companions?
You get either a stripped down outsider that gets bumped up at 4 or 7th level, or you get a less powerful outsider that gets a bump at 4th or 7th.
Because the Eidolon is the entire point and focus of the class. Turing it into something identical to an animal companion means the Summoner loses its only reason to exist.
Because the Eidolon is the entire point and focus of the class. Turing it into something identical to an animal companion means the Summoner loses its only reason to exist.I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere:
Why not ditch the Eldonon altogether and do the same thing that Druids do with animal companions?
You get either a stripped down outsider that gets bumped up at 4 or 7th level, or you get a less powerful outsider that gets a bump at 4th or 7th.
I don't know, I'd rather play a class that gets an Angel or Demon companion that I recognize. Rather than an amorphic blob that has no connection to current cosmology other than a vehicle to justify a class ability.
I don't know, I'd rather play a class that gets an Angel or Demon companion that I recognize. Rather than an amorphic blob that has no connection to current cosmology other than a vehicle to justify a class ability.
So make your Eidolon an Angel or Demon. Nothing at all in the rules is stopping you. Nothing at all in the rules states that the Eidolon is an amorphic blob that has no connection to current cosmology. That's 100% entirely YOUR contribution.
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I don't know, I'd rather play a class that gets an Angel or Demon companion that I recognize. Rather than an amorphic blob that has no connection to current cosmology other than a vehicle to justify a class ability.
Did you never play with legos as a kid? I'm having butt loads of fun fiddling with the Eidolon.
Just an additional idea to throw in, what about allowing more summons from the summoning ability when the eidolon is gone. your still limited when it's present, but open it up when he's gone?
Just an additional idea to throw in, what about allowing more summons from the summoning ability when the eidolon is gone. your still limited when it's present, but open it up when he's gone?Now THAT is a good idea. It still depletes your resources but lets you keep muscle on the field when the big guy is gone.
I concur.
Maybe write it as "the Summoner needs to spend 3* Summon Monster SLAs per day to maintain the Eidolon."
*Arbitrary number selected.
You can look at him like that, except for 1 very important fact. Wizards still have awesome offensive spells up to 9th level.
The summoner has almost 0 offensive spells other than summons, and only goes up to 6th level spells according to the .pdf file. Thats a MASSIVE hit vs a wizard in order to gain summoning power...Not to mention they're based on Summon Monster spells which have traditionally been less powerful than Summon Natures ally spells in regards to summoning. I really disagree that this build is "obscenely *more* powerful" than a conjuration-specialized wizard. This build has sacrificed SO MUCH magical power just for the summoning capabilities it had. It is nothing like having 7 fireballs, on top of a regular spell list. As well you have to be 16th level just to get the bottom of your 6th level spells? A wizard conjuration would be at the top of his 8th level spells by that point almost 9th level.
Re-look at what your sacrificing from a conjuration wizard just to get the exact same summon spells, but just a few more... Thats a long step far from over powered.
I'll grant you I was exaggerating a bit about the summoner's spellcasting aptitude. They certainly lack the versatility of a wizard, even one dedicated to conjuration, and they don't get access to many of the most potent spells a conjurer could call upon.
But I'll ask this: If you wanted to play a character focused on summoning creatures to do his work for him, who would you rather play? The summoner is undeniably better at that particular function than a wizard could possibly be, with the added benefit of getting a d8 hit die and middle base attack bonus.
Honestly, they're more closely parallel to bards than wizards, and I'm pretty sure the summoner (as conceived) would school a bard 9 fights out of 10. So whether or not it's really overpowered, it's definitely not underpowered.
Aside: you might be able to argue that Summon Nature's Ally has better outright combat creatures (take another look at the PF summon lists before you do so), but Summon Monster is far more versatile. I'd almost always prefer summoning creatures with appropriately-keyed smite, spellcasting, and special abilities. Druid gets a dire lion at 5, summoner gets... a celestial or fiendish dire lion. Handy!
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I just want to chime in on my support of the split path idea for the summoner after Dags pointed me to this thread.
One alternative I've been floating is the use of a summoning "pool" that can be used to cast various summon monster spells and also to boost the potency of those SLA's. For example, spending an extra point to increase the duration, or another point to decrease the cast time.
It might be viable to have an Eidelon focused summoner that gets the collection of evolution points to mutate the Eidelon into whatever they want, and then an alternate that gets a pool of daily summoning points to power their SLA and any available mods to just focus on summoning up an army of smaller critters.
But I'll ask this: If you wanted to play a character focused on summoning creatures to do his work for him, who would you rather play?
Conjuration Specialist Wizard, without a doubt. They get WAY more spells per day to work with to summon monsters, even counting the Summoner's SLA, and have longer-duration summons. They also have a much better spell list for non-summoning spells
But I'll ask this: If you wanted to play a character focused on summoning creatures to do his work for him, who would you rather play?Conjuration Specialist Wizard, without a doubt. They get WAY more spells per day to work with to summon monsters, even counting the Summoner's SLA, and have longer-duration summons. They also have a much better spell list for non-summoning spells
Exactly the problem. If I want to play a character focused on summoning monsters, I should want to play the specialized Summoner class, not a generic wizard.