after 1 Week of playtesting and analyzing the much discussed Summoner i've made several conclusions. I'm fairly familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of any character focused on summoning, because i've played an malconvoker over the course of 1 and a half years from level 5 to level 13.
After all things considered i think the summoner is very fine as it is. He can compete with full casters even if he lacks their diversity and damage potential. With full round casting he is a tad weaker than that and makes for a very strong support class. (the party will love him for spamming Haste and mass-buffs)
Many people are complaining about different aspects of the Summoner and even if i think he's fine and balanced their claims are not without a base. the summoner ( just like every other class) has his issues and is open to improvements. Here are my attempts at resolvoing these issues in order to make the class more fun for everyone.
Problem: with the reduced duration and 1 round casting time using Summon Monster at very low levels (1 -2) is hardly viable
this is true. with just 1 (2) rounds the summoned monster is hard pressed to make the time the summoner invested calling it count. it is possible (providing Flanking bonuses, blocking enemies etc. Also this low duration completly bars the monster from all out- of combat uses.
on the other hand with their low HP and AC they will not be able to last any longer than 1 or 2 rounds on the battlefield.
Solution(s):
1. reduce casting time. the summoner has more than enough uses of his SLA so if the first monster is gone he may just summon another without standing there for 1 full round, opening himself to attacks and prone to disruption. For possible aproaches see the next problem.
2. increase duration. You don't need to bring the min/lvl summons back. but a boost that matters at low levels would be nice.
maybe +Cha Rounds ?
free extend?
Problem: In some situation you are unable to summon anything due to 1 round casting time.
this only applies to some situations. but these situations are usually do-or-die situations.
Sometimes you need to get something, anything out there fighting for you and a full round means that the rogue jumps through a wall of fire and stabs you, ruining it all.
Solution(s):
give the summoner the ability to reduce casting time, if really needed.1. reduce the casting time of the SLA to 1 standard action - there is no problem of spamming the battlefield due to the 1 at a time restriction. so there would be no big problem except for the tactical advantages fast summoning gives (you don't have to guess the battlefields makeup for the next round)
2.
Rapid Spelllike Ability [feat]
Preq: spell-like ability with a casting time of 1 round or more
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities with a casting time of 1 round or more, subject to the restrictions below. The creature can use that ability as an rapided spell-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).
(for the effects of rapid spell look it up in Complete divine. most importaintly the casting time of a spell taking 1 round to cast is reduced to 1 standard action
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 1
Special: a Summoner may apply this feat to his summon monster spell-like ability, even if he doesn't have the necessary caster level
Practiced Summoner
preq: Augument Summoning
benefit: you gain +3 caster level for all conjuration(summoning) spells and effects
+3 Cl is a hefty bonus. but not so much with summon monster. it only increases duration, max. range and dispel resistance.
3. the summoner can cast his Summon Monster SLA as a standard action 1/day (2/day at 10th and 3/day at 15th level)
Problem: the summoner has way more recources than an wizard or even Sorcerer of equal level
this is true. 3+Cha summons + spells + eidolon is very much. but also very limited. but does the summoner really need so many summons?
Solution(s)
Reduce the numeber of Summon monster Sla's . The summoner won't need so many anyway. especially with the 1 summon at a time restriction. a summoner will not need more than his eidolon + 1 summon in any fight except very hard ones. (and here 2-3 summons are more than enough) So it all comes down to expected encounters per day. i think 3 is a very fair, if not a bit high number. so 3-5 Summons per day should be enough. (even leaving some for non combat summons most days)
so cha summons per day should be fine.
for those who still want more summoning again a feat might be the solution:
Extra Summons
Preq: Summoner Lvl 5
Benefit: you may use your Summon Monster SLA 3 additional times per day
Normal: a Summoner may use his Summon Monster SLa once per day for every point of charisma bonus he posesses
Problem: Armor is very powerful for Eidolons.
this was already adressed. But a "no Way" approach is not always thze best. some Eidolon concepts e.g. "Angelic Protector" somewhat require the Eidolon to wear armor. Also many players don't like if they are completely forbidden from something. still wearing armor realy makes some ridiculous ACs possible. so it should come with a big cost.
Solution(s):
limit wearing armor.
Since the eidolon is in a constant state of evolution and has a slightly different form each time summoned it can not wear armor that is not specificialy made to fit the needs of shape-shifting creatures, like armor with the Wild property or made from Karach (see below) note that the eidolon still incures nonproficiency penalties if it does not select the armor proficiency feats.
Karach ( special material)
Karach is raw chaos-stuff ( or protomatter etc. ) enchanted to remain in a somewhat stable for, jet remain a lot of it's flexibility
Karach Armor is highly priced by shapeshifting beings (like lycanthrophes), because it moves to refit their very shape.
karach armor does not prevent shapeshifting and is not torn appart. it simply refits the new form. karach armor moves with the wearer and remains flexible, its armor check penalties are reduced by 3 (minimum 1) but it also somewhat gives way to blows more easily. reduce the armor bonus of the armor by 2.
Weapons made of Karack have the tendency to shift balance and are clumsy to wield. Karack Weapons have a -1 penalty to attack rolls. Since they somewhat consist of all metals at the same time weapons made from Karach can ignore up to 5 Points of damage reduction, that can be bypassed by silver or cold iron weapons.
All items made of Karach are nearly indestructible, as seams seal themselves, broken pieces mend back together etc.
at the end of its wearers turn all items made from Karach return to full normal hitpoints, unless destroyed. Even a destroyed item will eventually heal, but this process takes 1 minute per pound of the item and only works it most of the parts of the item still exist and join up with the item (so an item made from karach can be destroyed by droping it into a pool of lava, a disintegrate spell, or preventing the pieces of the item from rejoining)
Karach in its natural state is highly unstable, every itme made of karach must be enchented to stabilize its form. So items made from Karach must be magical items. Enchanting any other item (that isn't a magical item) costs an additional 500gp.
if the item looses its magical properties (due to dispel magic or an similar effect) it is temporaly reduced to a pool of chaosmatter, but it will reform once its magical properties return.
Weapons and Armor made of Karach are always of masterwork quality and the cost are already included below
Price: I'm not shure about this. i think the mithral prices might be a good baseline. maybe a tad lower.
Stable Form [Eidolon]
Preq: eidolon, 5HD
Benefit: The eidolons evolution is more stable and produces less dramatic results. Its form is stable enough to allow for specificially fitted armor, but the Eidolon is also more limited in its evolutionary changes.
the eidolon may wear normal Armor that was specificially fitted for it. Every time the Eidolon changes form the Armor needs to be refit.
When the eidolon changes form 1/2 of its original evolution points may not be reallocated. (An Eidolon whos Summoner has just reached 6th Level may only spend 5 Evolution points. the remaining 4 must remain allocated to evolutions the eidolon already posessed)
Note that you still take nonproficiency penalties unless you also posess the appropiat armor proficiency feats
Special: you can't select this feat if you already posess the Flexible Form feat
Flexible Form [Eidolon]
Preq: eidlon, 5HD
the Eidolons form is constantly changing drastically. It is known for huge outburst of mutagenetic power. every time the eidolon spends evolution points it may choose to leave up to 3 evolution points unspent. these points may be allocated temporary to evolutions with a full round action. these Points may not be spend on the Spelllike Ability evolution
Special: you can't select this feat if you already posess the Stable Form feat
Problem: An Eidolon racking up on natural attacks has an insane damage output
this realy can get terrifying. the eidolon mostly lacks defense but especially with the pounce evolution things get nasty.
Solution(s):
1.make pounce a 2 point evolution. pounce is powerfull. It completly negates one of the main Problem of any melee fighter. sacrificing a full attack to close in.
2. limit the number of natural attacks an eidolon may posess. After all there is only so much space on an body to fiate arms or tentacles to.
for this limit there are several suggestions:
3+con (my favorite)
base forms + con
base forms + 1/3 (or 4) levels
3+ 1/3 (or 4) levels
etc.
also this gives the possibility for yet another feat:
Extra Natural Attack [Eidolon]
Preq: Eidolon, 3HD, Con 15+
Benefit: Your eidolon may posess 2 additional natural attacks
Problem: the Eidolon may not enter many settlements and remain with the summoner at all times It would be nice not to have to worry if your room is within 100ft of the satbles, if your eidolon is large and you don't want to dismiss it for the night or let it loose 50% of its HP
Solution(s)
Again a feat might be the answer:
Self Sufficient Eidolon
Preq. Summoner Lvl 1.
Benefit: your Eidolon does not loose any Hp or lower its max. Hp it is moves farther away from you than 100 ft. but the life link , life bond, transposition and bonded senses powers may only be used if your eidolon is within 1000 ft.
it can move freely everywhere as long as it remains on the smae plane as its summoner
This not only allows the eidolon to stay in the Wood with the animal companions if the party goes to town. it also allwos the summoner to use his Eidolon as a messenger or agent. Or the Eidolon of a BBEG Summoner might be a recurring Henchman / harrasment for the party.
Problem: the summoner is too focused on his eidolon. A Summoner should be able to focus on Summons
People want flexibility. This is one of the greatest appeals of the Summoner class and as many have said. they would love to have a way to focus their summoner on summon Monster Spells, with the Eidolon just being another summon for him.
Solution(s):
Give the Summoner the ability to choose between 2 focuses at level 1 . Eidolon or Summoning. the eidolon Focus is the Summoner as presented in the playtest.
the summoning focus:
A summoner with the summoning focus does not gain the Bond Senses ,Shield Ally, Greater shield Ally, Makers Call, Transpositon, Life Bond, Merge Forms, Aspect, greater Aspect and Twin Eidolon class features. Also he can not sacrifice Hp to prevent his Eidolon from dying with the life link power.
instead he gains the following class abilities:
1st level:
Otherworldly Vigor (Ex): Every creature summoned by your conjuration(summoning) spells gains fast healing 1 +1 per 3 classlevels you posess (max 5 at 15th level) this fast healing does not stack with any fast healing the creature might posess, only the higher value applies
2nd:
Masters Connection (Su): The Summoner shares the same connection with his summoned monster as with his Eidolon. this allows for giving easy and discreet commands to your summons
4th:
Augument Summoning (Ex): the Summoner gains Augument summoning as a bonus feat
6th:
Master of Summons (Ex): beginning at 6th level the duration of all your Summon Monster Spells (including your SLA) is doubled as if modified by the extend spell feat. at 10th level your summons grow more resistant to attempts to banish them. they gain a +2 bonus on Will saves and +5 on their spell resistance against protection from alignment or similar effects. at 14th level the caster level of your summon Monster Spells is treated as being 2 higher for the purpose of resisting Dispel Magic or similar effects.
8th:
Summoners transportation (su): beginning at 8th level as a standard action you may dismiss a creature summoned by your Summon Monster SLA to instantly transport you to the creatures location this ability functions as Dimension Door and is useable 1/day + 1 addititonal time for every 4 levels beyond 6th.
10th:
Bening Inhabitation(Sp): at 10th level the summoner may, as a standard action use one of his daily uses of his Summon Monster SLA to summon a spirit to inhabit him or a willing creature he is touching. the inhabited creature adds 2 points worth of evolutions to itself for 1 round per round the summoned monster would have lasted. at 18th Level the inhabited creature gains 6 evolution points
12th:
Legion summoner(Ex) at 12th level choose 1 Aligment (C,L,G,E) component not opposed to your own. everytime you summon 1 or more Creatures with that Alignment component you summon an additional creature of that type.
14th:
Siphon life (Su) at 14th level you may, as a standard action dismiss a creature summoned by your summon Monster SLa to heal 1 HP for every 3 Hp the Monster had left.
16th:
Planar Excange(Sp) at 16th level you may use your Summone Monster SLA to cast Planar Exchange, Greater, Planar Exchange or Planar Exchange, lesser instead [See Spell Compendium for the Spells]
20th:
Baleful Inhabitation(Sp)
at 20th Level you may use your benign Inhabitation class feature even on an Enemy creature. you must succeed at a touch attack and the creature is entitled to a saving throw Will DC 20+cha. If the creature fails the saving throw it gains the evolution Points but is also controlled by you as with an Dominate Monster spell. this is a mind-affecting compulsion
effect.
thoughts? comments?
Interesting ideas. I do like the idea of your feats. I think the initial summoner was too much, but investing additional resources (feats) it would be nice if they could get some of that back.
The only one im not certain of is the self sufficient one. I think making your eidolon larger or huge is a big boon in its offensive power. The drawbacks that come from having to leave it behind in some situations serve to balance that.
I totally agree about the number of natural attacks. As we both saw, a whole mess of attacks and pounce is like a charging meteor swarm even at mid levels. A limit on those really needs to be put in place.
I totally agree about the number of natural attacks. As we both saw, a whole mess of attacks and pounce is like a charging meteor swarm even at mid levels. A limit on those really needs to be put in place.
the damage potential (110+ dmg/round on level 9) is terrifying but also such an Eidolon is very much a glass canon. it's ac will most likely suck, as will its saves. if an eidolon like this has to last for more than 1 fight it will cost the party quite a lot of recources to keep it up and running.
is ponce + lots of nat attacks powerful? Hell yes, but putting all your recoures to offence always is.(My level 7 Barb can with haste and bardic music achieve nearly equal damage potential with higher AC and mor HP) So is it overpowered? no. it all is a question of balance between offense and defense
Nice summation.
I do feel that summoning should be quickened to a standard action for at least once per day. 2/day at 10th and 3/day at 20th.
It is important to get the summoning back to the summoner, when pressed by a bunch of bloodthirsty adventures I will not spend a full round.
A summoner should receive an extend feat to all his Sp summonings.
His Sp summonings should be limited to 1 active Sp summoning to limit going nova.
I do feel like that having an eidolon is like playing two characters at once, moreso than with an animal companion. The eidolon truely can be a frightening weapon if designed that way, and I imagine it is the way they will be played, certainly if used in a party where the damage is not only focused on the pouncing eidolon.
I do find the spell list of the summoner very limited if a protracted engagement is fought, no direct damage, but maybe a summoned monster could fill that role (see my full round comments)?
I do feel that summoning should be quickened to a standard action for at least once per day. 2/day at 10th and 3/day at 20th.
Good idea. It's a fair middle groud. I will add this to my suggested solutions :>
I do find the spell list of the summoner very limited if a protracted engagement is fought, no direct damage, but maybe a summoned monster could fill that role (see my full round comments)?
I think the purpose of the summoner is not dealing damage, but battelfield control and support. These are the areas where he really shines.
Flexible Form [Eidolon]
Preq: Eidolon, 5HD
The Eidolon's form is constantly changing drastically. It is known for huge outburst of mutagenetic power. Every time the eidolon spends evolution points it may choose to leave up to 3 evolution points unspent. These points may be allocated temporary to evolutions with a full round action. These Points may not be spend on the Spelllike Ability evolution.I really like this feat. You may want to clarify whether you mean for the eidolon or the summoner to take this feat. (Whether you must be a 5HD eidolon or a summoner who calls a 5HD eidolon)
This also solves the problem of where you can and can't take that Large sized eidolon - simply make those 3 points be the ones you spend on Large or not.
this is for the eidolon. All Feats with the [Eidolon] tag must be selected by the eidolon (and can only be selected by one, so no variable Evolution Points with Aspect or greater aspect).
Nice summation.
I do feel that summoning should be quickened to a standard action for at least once per day. 2/day at 10th and 3/day at 20th.
It is important to get the summoning back to the summoner, when pressed by a bunch of bloodthirsty adventures I will not spend a full round.
A summoner should receive an extend feat to all his Sp summonings.
His Sp summonings should be limited to 1 active Sp summoning to limit going nova.I do feel like that having an eidolon is like playing two characters at once, moreso than with an animal companion. The eidolon truely can be a frightening weapon if designed that way, and I imagine it is the way they will be played, certainly if used in a party where the damage is not only focused on the pouncing eidolon.
I do find the spell list of the summoner very limited if a protracted engagement is fought, no direct damage, but maybe a summoned monster could fill that role (see my full round comments)?
Some scaling ability to cast faster might be nice, I think the problem was he got all of that at first level.
And i dont think the summoner needs direct damage spells, he has summons to do damage, not to mention his eidolon, which already can have significant damage potential. If he is really worried about having a fireball when he really needs it theres always UMD.
I perfectly understand the spell list and why UMD is there, but I don't want to play a supporting role. Shining through support isn't as interesting / cool as shining because YOU did something.
Everyone / every class needs his moment in the spotlight and buffing the fighter isn't all that. Plus, the eidolon takes a lot of the credit away too.
If you strip away the eidolon what do you have?
I perfectly understand the spell list and why UMD is there, but I don't want to play a supporting role. Shining through support isn't as interesting / cool as shining because YOU did something.
Everyone / every class needs his moment in the spotlight and buffing the fighter isn't all that. Plus, the eidolon takes a lot of the credit away too.
If you strip away the eidolon what do you have?
That's the great thing about the summoner. You are playing a supportive character and buff the party, but you are not left out of the action. With your eidolon and/or your summoned monsters you also get more than your share of bashing and killing things. you just need to see the eidolon / summons as a part of your character, just as a wizards fireball. ( or better longer lasting spell like Black Tentacles or Acid Arrow)
I've played a Malconvocer for quiet some time now and my usual tactic is to summon s.th. first round. Then buff the party in the following round, while frontlining with the summons. It's both. the rewards for helping your team and the thrill of being the Meatshield ( without having to fear for your life :D)
I perfectly understand the spell list and why UMD is there, but I don't want to play a supporting role. Shining through support isn't as interesting / cool as shining because YOU did something.
Everyone / every class needs his moment in the spotlight and buffing the fighter isn't all that. Plus, the eidolon takes a lot of the credit away too.
If you strip away the eidolon what do you have?
You can't say things like that! Its heresy!
That is my issue with the class, however if you look at my playtest #2 there maybe something to help with that.
I perfectly understand the spell list and why UMD is there, but I don't want to play a supporting role. Shining through support isn't as interesting / cool as shining because YOU did something.
Everyone / every class needs his moment in the spotlight and buffing the fighter isn't all that. Plus, the eidolon takes a lot of the credit away too.
If you strip away the eidolon what do you have?
Unless you do something like spacelard did (focusing on the character with some creative choices) your way to shine IS THROUGH THE EIDOLON. He is your big ole minion that you support and kick but with. You can shine somewhat with your spells (a well place grease especially if heightened can be an encounter changer at any level), but in the end its about the big stompy monster (and other summons) you send forth.
If you dont want it to be that way, then spacelard gave a good example (though I doubt the only one) of what path you should take. Build your character to focus on the summoner and not his summons. 2 levels in paladin, or the dragon disciple prestige class, and you will be a capable fighting class with the ability to buff one's self rather well. Then its you doing the cool thing. So basically as it stands now, you can have the big nasty pet that does your fighting for you (and steals the show so to speak) or you can make it so you are the big nasty, and your pet is a side kick.
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Build your character to focus on the summoner and not his summons. 2 levels in paladin, or the dragon disciple prestige class, and you will be a capable fighting class with the ability to buff one's self rather well. Then its you doing the cool thing. So basically as it stands now, you can have the big nasty pet that does your fighting for you (and steals the show so to speak) or you can make it so you are the big nasty, and your pet is a side kick.
I don't think levels in a fighting class and a prestige class are really necessary for the Summoner to fight decently. Assuming the same magic items, a Summoner who's Eidolon flanks and trips for him has a better bonus to hit than an Fighter for the first few levels but it evens out and finally peters out at about 8th lvl. That's still most of a year of play for many people. The Summoner can continue to increase his abilities by riding his Eidolon (high ground) and getting a summoned critter to flank. Add in the decent buffs the Summoner has and its a decent fighting class all on its own. Is it better than a Cleric? No, but what is? It is at least on par with a wild shaping combat druid I think and will probably exceed the general ability of a pure melee class like Fighter or Barbarian above 15th lvl.
I don't think levels in a fighting class and a prestige class are really necessary for the Summoner to fight decently. Assuming the same magic items, a Summoner who's Eidolon flanks and trips for him has a better bonus to hit than an Fighter for the first few levels but it evens out and finally peters out at about 8th lvl. That's still most of a year of play for many people. The Summoner can continue to increase his abilities by riding his Eidolon (high ground) and getting a summoned critter to flank. Add in the decent buffs the Summoner has and its a decent fighting class all on its own. Is it better than a Cleric? No, but what is? It is at least on par with a wild shaping combat druid I think and will probably exceed the general ability of a pure melee class like Fighter or Barbarian above 15th lvl.
Oh i think its definately possible to be good at fighting. What i was talking about was trying to make the summoner really 'shine'. I actually like where the summoner is at the moment in terms of combat potential.
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Oh i think its definately possible to be good at fighting. What i was talking about was trying to make the summoner really 'shine'. I actually like where the summoner is at the moment in terms of combat potential.
Gotcha.
Well, I felt pretty shiny. To be fair, I was never in the camp that feared the Eidolon stealing the show (though the lack of social skills for the Summoner tempts me to make the Eidolon my group's face). But with that caveat, I think there are builds for someone that wants to have a fun PC that sin't totally brutalized by his own creation and builds for those that want their Eidolon to be the focus.
The only one im not certain of is the self sufficient one. I think making your eidolon larger or huge is a big boon in its offensive power. The drawbacks that come from having to leave it behind in some situations serve to balance that.
I wasn't sure about this one too. but the drawbacks of leaving it behind are still there to an degree. ( it won't loose HP, but it still isn't with you) also the feat cuts in the combat budget of the eidolon and it opens up sone interesting new uses for Eidolons ( even though most of these uses are only interesting for NPC summoners ) so i included it.