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I was running at a convention this weekend, and saw this build (3rd level, PDA). Is it legal?
Wielded shield two-handed (19 str)
d6+9 damage (str, power attack, spike on shield)
Feats (Improved shield bash, dodge, power attack, something else)
AC: 26 (full plate +1, large shield +1, feat, armor specialty)
This was by far the most efficient "sword and board" I have seen, since the damage of long sword or even bastard sword pales in comparison to getting strength-and-a-half for a fighter type while still getting the full benefit of the shield.
I am just worried about getting all the benefits of sword-and-board AND two weapon fighting mixed (well, 1d6 less damage, but especially over levels that becomes less and less relevant). Plus, shield as the best weapon in the game is stupid. And while I can house rule, PFS is strictly by the book.
Thoughts?
Wielded shield two-handed (...)
Interesting... but I don't see how the shield is going to be "wielded" two-handed. I mean... from a logical point of vue, you can't wield a shield two-handed. The shield as to be strapped to one arm and its attack come from bashing away with the arm holding the shield. If I ever saw a character fighting with a shield two-handed, I'd rule that (1) the shield isn't strapped to the arm and thus can't improve AC, or (2) the character's arms are tied together with the shield - meaning penalties to Dex, Acrobatics, and whatnot (see what I proposed in the Bound/Helpless thread here).
However, I know that when logic is fighting with RAW, it always lose...
Interesting... but I don't see how the shield is going to be "wielded" two-handed. I mean... from a logical point of vue, you can't wield a shield two-handed. The shield as to be strapped to one arm and its attack come from bashing away with the arm holding the shield.
If the shield had two handles mounted on the inside, it seems possible that it could be grasped with two hands and used as a two-handed weapon.
But with that modification, I'd also rule that it could no longer be used with one hand. You would be able to hold it (somewhat awkwardly) with one hand, but you wouldn't be able to use it as a weapon.I probably wouldn't allow the full AC bonus.
It seems that holding a large shield with two hands would hamper your flexibility to block attacks from different directions.
Blocking attacks from the front would be no problem, but blocking attacks from the sides or from behind would require you to twist your entire body around.
At first, I'd only allow 1/2 of it's normal AC bonus and increase the armor check penalty since it's so awkward to hold. With enough ranks in acrobatics and the weapon focus/specialization feats, I'd eventually eliminate these penalties.
the character's arms are tied together with the shield - meaning penalties to Dex, Acrobatics, and whatnot (see what I proposed in the Bound/Helpless thread here).
No, I wouldn't suggest this. If the shield had handles, it wouldn't be much different than a normal two-handed weapon, like a great sword or quarterstaff. The character could let go if he needed to and therefore shouldn't be considered bound/tied. He'll probably already take a penalty to AC, so no need to add further penalties.
interesting stuff
Thanks for these points. The fact is that the rules say nothing about this, so I had to invent a house rule for this situation. If I have a player doing this one day, your ideas will be used.
Another point: can a character use a tower shield in this way?
EDIT: No, I just re-read the rules.
interesting stuffThanks for these points. The fact is that the rules say nothing about this, so I had to invent a house rule for this situation. If I have a player doing this one day, your ideas will be used.
Another point: can a character use a tower shield in this way?
EDIT: No, I just re-read the rules.
Until now, I've never heard of anybody using a shield as a two-handed weapon.
However, someone in my group did dual-wield two light shields once. That was also interesting.
I was running at a convention this weekend, and saw this build (3rd level, PDA). Is it legal?
Wielded shield two-handed (19 str)
d6+9 damage (str, power attack, spike on shield)
Feats (Improved shield bash, dodge, power attack, something else)
AC: 26 (full plate +1, large shield +1, feat, armor specialty)
This was by far the most efficient "sword and board" I have seen, since the damage of long sword or even bastard sword pales in comparison to getting strength-and-a-half for a fighter type while still getting the full benefit of the shield.
I am just worried about getting all the benefits of sword-and-board AND two weapon fighting mixed (well, 1d6 less damage, but especially over levels that becomes less and less relevant). Plus, shield as the best weapon in the game is stupid. And while I can house rule, PFS is strictly by the book.
Thoughts?
The lack 20/x2 critical multiplier of the shield is the balancer..
1d6 18-20/x2 or 1d10 with 19-20/x2 is huge balancer versus 2 or 3 AC.
Personally I would not allow the build, but since you were running a PFCS game, that will need an official review.
interesting stuffThanks for these points. The fact is that the rules say nothing about this, so I had to invent a house rule for this situation. If I have a player doing this one day, your ideas will be used.
Another point: can a character use a tower shield in this way?
EDIT: No, I just re-read the rules.Until now, I've never heard of anybody using a shield as a two-handed weapon.
However, someone in my group did dual-wield two light shields once. That was also interesting.
Dual wielding Klars would be pretty cool.
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You do end up with the "best of both worlds". At least when you dual wield you have to use a small shield or suffer additional penalties, but even that is significantly "worth it"; 1 feat gets you 1 armor class + whatever buffs you can afford on the shield (4000 gp = +2 AC, a bargain considering). In comparison to the short sword all it lacks is the 19-20 critical range.
But here, you get the benefits of a "Sword and board" fighter AND a Two-handed fighter. You lose 1 damage and 19-20 crit range from a longsword; but gain strength-and-a-half damage (I think we can all agree anyone would make that trade) and 1 damage/4 BAB on the always-taken Power Attack. From the Two-handed sword you lose 3.5 damage, but again you get +2 AC + another cheap-to-fill buff slot, again a trade that most would make (when in doubt, sword-and-board is considered better in the first place).
It just seems a bit silly; you get the best of both worlds. It doesn't seem right for the Shield to be the most powerful weapon in the game, does it? Per the note above, 26 AC and very high damage output at 3rd level; take away Dodge (which he probably was getting for some feat line) and he'd have 25 AC and be doing the two-handed fighter's damage, at 3rd level with very little money.
It just seems a bit silly; you get the best of both worlds. It doesn't seem right for the Shield to be the most powerful weapon in the game, does it? Per the note above, 26 AC and very high damage output at 3rd level; take away Dodge (which he probably was getting for some feat line) and he'd have 25 AC and be doing the two-handed fighter's damage, at 3rd level with very little money.
The Improved Shield Bash feat would be absolutely essential to this build.
The rules state that making a shield bash causes you to lose your shield's AC bonus until the next round.
Even when using a Klar (a shield with a sword built in) you still lose your AC bonus when attacking.
Therefore, you would definitely need Improved Shield Bash if you want to keep your AC bonus and get "best of both worlds."
Dual wielding Klars would be pretty cool.
I have PC's facing a barbarian with this now. He's kinda spooky even without the adept support
Batts
Have you known that every character who uses two shields, or uses a shield two-handed, will mysteriously die within one game session?
Some encounter an enemy they cannot defeat and cannot outrun, some fall victim to obscure rules like "I rolled 100 on my freak occurrence table, which means you strangled yourself while trying to floss", some find out that saying "hi" to a kingdom official is punishable by death... ;-P
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a [light|heavy] shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a [light|heavy] shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
+1. This indicates that you can bash with a shield as a off-hand weapon. For clarity, I wish they would have included the implied <ONLY> on the end of that sentence.
[gm hat] You want to shield bash with two hands ? Sure, but now it's an improvised weapon, because you're not wielding it as intended. [/gm hat]
I had a fun character that used a shield and a spiked gauntlet. This was 3.5 rules, so he also had improved grapple. In our group, monks were thought of as the grappler. So I made a fighter-grappler. The idea was to mix up punching with shield bashing and, versus humanoid foes, grappling to negate any non-light weapons. Once in a grapple, he would disarm and then disengage the grapple and then beat the enemy with his own weapon. All this while still having decent AC.
Unlike Hercules, he did not deal only subdual damage.
It never occurred to me to use the shield two-handed, and it certainly seems counter-intuitive. I mean, I could see putting your whole body into a shield bash, but that would be more of a bull rush/overrun attack with the shield. As the other posters have said... Treating it as a light weapon (in other words, could not be wielded two-handed) seems fine.
The alternate way to use a shield is with improved shield bash and two weapon fighting. This way you get all of the attacks of two weapon fighting and retain the AC of a sword and board. Getting the dex to do that (as a fighter) is a bit difficult, however.
Here's an idea:
Make the edge of the shield razor sharp so that it can cause slashing damage.
The user would have to wear special gloves so that he doesn't cut himself.
The face of the shield would do bludgeoning damage, the razor sharp edges could do slashing and a large spike in the middle could do piercing damage.
Obviously, you'd need a very nice GM and several houserules to make this work, but it could be a neat idea.
You could also have a "Returning" enchantment put upon the shield so that it could be thrown like Captain America or Rygar.
Since you so kindly quoted the Pathfinder core book, quoting the SRD it might have been nice to include the FAQ regarding this issue.
That's from the PRD, not the SRD. Is there a PRD FAQ yet? Last I checked they hadn't gotten around to it.
I find it unlikely that the same person wrote both the rule and the FAQ response, anyway. It's quite sensible that a shield bash is always treated as off-hand, even if it's your only attack. Backhand swings are generally suboptimal.
I've used a shield in real life, against live steel once or twice.
You won't be using it two handed. Indeed, I can make a good argument that you can't shield bash with a buckler, and that you can only shield bash with a light or heavy shield as part of a charge attack.
This isn't to say you can't hurt someone with it. But you've got about half the reach of a short sword with no real way to wind up for extra momentum on it.
Against cutting weapons, you want the edge of your shield to be rimmed with a very thin layer of metal, so that when you catch someone's edge on it, you have good odds of trapping it.
I'd say "You can do a shield bash with your off hand only, and only after a charge."
I'd say "You can do a shield bash with your off hand only, and only after a charge."
Your explanation makes sense, but that limitation would drastically reduce the effectiveness/usefulness/fun of the shield bash.
Here's another idea:
Since the shield has such a limited reach compared to normal weapons, which would require the wielder to be very close to an opponent, maybe the "Improved Unarmed Strike" feat should be a prereq for anybody using a shield as a primary weapon.
Since you so kindly quoted the Pathfinder core book, quoting the SRD it might have been nice to include the FAQ regarding this issue.That's from the PRD, not the SRD. Is there a PRD FAQ yet? Last I checked they hadn't gotten around to it.
I find it unlikely that the same person wrote both the rule and the FAQ response, anyway. It's quite sensible that a shield bash is always treated as off-hand, even if it's your only attack. Backhand swings are generally suboptimal.
Also the Paizo staff has already said that they do not feel obligated to consider anything in the 3.5 FAQ as legitimate for PF (it was said for the specific case involving monks and improved natural weapon).
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Pathfinder/Dnd give up some reality for flexibility quite often. I have no real issue with a light shield being given a feat to allow it to become the second weapon of a two-weapon fighter, even if shieldbashing in base-to-base is technically impossible. Heck, jumping and climbing/crawling in full plate is less believable than that.
What I had a problem with is Pathfinder making Shieldfighting the best idea in the game. There was an exploit in 3.5 that PF filled called animated shields; which let you have a shield that didn't need a hand. In some ways it's better than that (+2 more enhancement on shield), obviously the gain is a little more damage on the 3.5 animated shield (PF fixed that). But the point remains that it is unbalancing to get the benefits of sword-and-board AND two-handed styles (the two best styles) with the cost of a little damage and a feat.
So until I see errata/wording to the opposite, I will rule it as it literally says in the book quote, useable only as an off-hand weapon. Because a world full of shieldfighting is just dumb (except Goofy in kingdom hearts, he can keep that style).
Off-hand or no, if the shield was the only weapon the PC had avail (disarmed, just recovered it after being captured, etc) then I'd let them use it like a standard weapon (providing this was what they skill in through feat selection, obviously they've taken the time to learn how) but two-handed?
Nope, sorry.
Anyone here own a shield? Now, it's easy to say 'as long as it had two handles it's be okay' but that's speculation at best. The fact of the matter is, it's not easy to fight with a shield, let alone do it two-handed. I've tried it, it's not easy or fun or anything resembling practical.
Using it as a one-handed weapon (hey, sometimes the last thing an opponents expects when they disarm you is for you to go at em' with a shield) I'm okay with. Two-handed? Not at my table.
Now that's not to say some Fighter couldn't come up with a new magical shield idea that allowed a shield bash to strike harder (like 1.5 times your strength bonus).
One caveat, using the shield two handed for a bullrush or overrun is certainly a practical idea since the PC has the opportunity to place all his weight behind the barrier and push forward.
In the Marvel comics, I've seen Captain America use an "overhand chop" type of action to bring the edge of his shield down on an enemy's head.
He often uses 2 hands for this.
Sometimes, he also leaps into the air, letting his weight and momentum add to the shield's impact.
What would be the Pathfinder equivalent for this type of attack?
What class abilities, feats, weapons, skills, houserules, etc would be necessary to pull off an attack like this?
In the Marvel comics, I've seen Captain America use an "overhand chop" type of action to bring the edge of his shield down on an enemy's head.
He often uses 2 hands for this.Sometimes, he also leaps into the air, letting his weight and momentum add to the shield's impact.
What would be the Pathfinder equivalent for this type of attack?
What class abilities, feats, weapons, skills, houserules, etc would be necessary to pull off an attack like this?
It's not Pathfinder, but Complete Warrior has the Dwarven Buckler Axe, a shield that had an axe-head like shape and a sharpened lower edge that was used in that manner (but not two handed). Not to be confused with the Razored Shield from Underdark p64 that makes your shield bashes a slashing attack.
That second move sounds like the feat "Leap Attack" (from Complete Adventurer) / Power Attack combo used for a shield bash.
Using it as a one-handed weapon (hey, sometimes the last thing an opponents expects when they disarm you is for you to go at em' with a shield) I'm okay with. Two-handed? Not at my table.
Now now then....
'Broderick cringes as the savage lander's axe blade shatters his mace in twain with nary a pause. Desperate and out of weapons, Broderick raises his shield arm, twisting it to level the flat edge in line with his savage foe's throat and bracing with his good right hand he pushs with both arms. The wet pulping sound of flesh is punctuated by the gout of barbarian blood, The barbarian's eyes roll back and his ehad tilts back unnaturally, his rage abated with his life'
I can see a 2 handed shield used in that fashion. I can see how it looks ridiculous to be the default combat tactic in that regard.
Batts