Under the rules for mechanical traps, the second paragraph read to me as if everyone gets a free perception trap right before the trap is activated. Am I reading this correctly?
Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered. The DC of this check depends on the trap itself. Success generally indicates that the creature has detected the mechanism that activates the trap, such as a pressure plate, odd gears attached to a door handle, and the like. Beating this check by 5 or more also gives some indication of what the trap is designed to do.
For one, I'm least afraid of mechanical traps. Coming across magical traps to me is far worse, making trap spotter worth it. Perhaps it means that you're not flatfooted ?
So is there an automatic perception check for people who don't have trap spotter? It doesn't say there is but its worded as if the check was automatic. If that is the case, trap spotter would just give the ability a range instead of right before he stepped into it.
I'm just not sure on whether I should be allowing players to roll perception before a trap goes off in their face if they don't have Trap Spotter
I think it's referring when a player grabs a door knob right before twisting it or to that spilt second after "click" becomes a scythe to the gut. Sometimes when the perception comes in it's already too late (maybe only giving the player time to become not flat footed vs the trap with an attack bonus, where otherwise it's hit and they'd not have the chance to avoid). Maybe the pressure plate doesn't fire until the weight changes after compression (noticing after stepping on it, before setting it off, like stepping on a mine or something). Trap spotter would give them the ability to possibly avoid this at a distance. This really matters on the ruthlessness of the GM. At minimum it shoud enablethe trap spotter to stop short of setting it off (within 10 feet of the trigger).
Trap spotter gives you the shot at it before you are ready to activate the trap (and again if you are the one activating it). For instance if the fighter is about to open the door and the rogue is behind him, he may be able to stop him even if the fighter doesnt notice the trap.
So it is definately useful if you prefer not to have hte rogue go in front of the fighter which i am sure the rogues dont mind.
The perception skill is worded in such a way that it seems automatic though. Traps are even listed under the skill, but Action says its usually automatic. Plus the first line of the second paragraph doesn't say it needs an action.
Trap spotter says the rogue can spot the trap from 10 ft away. The wording under trap is "Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered." I'm imagining something along the lines of stopping just before grasping the knob.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.My interpretation is that to have any chance for detecting a trap you need to spend a move action "searching for stimulus".
Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should
be made in secret by the GM.This feature gives them the immediate or automatic check without using the move action to intentionally search for stimulus.
You are ignoring the first part of the rule. "Most perception checks are reactive, made in response to stimulus." Moving into a trap's trigger area is the stimulus. It does not require an action to do so. The whole point of that line is that even the fighter has a chance to spot the trap before he steps on it (though probably not as good a chance as the rogue).
I would argue I am not ignoring it. Perception says that most actions are automatic, but some are not and require one to actively look via a move action. I believe that spotting a trap is one such action. As you yourself say Most perception checks are reactive. I interpret trap spotting (without the talent) as one of the categories that are not in Most and require the active look.
I interpret the line meaning that a warrior now has a chance to spot a trap where in 3.5 he had 0 chance of spotting it if it was over a certain DC.
Generally if they do not say something is differnt I assume teh 3.5 rules and in 3.5 the rogue (and everyon else) had to specifically look for a trap. The new talent IMHO supersedes that and allows a rogue to note traps reactively without having to active search if he has the talent.
"Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered."
Explain to me how this can possibly require an action to look for it? If you are taking an action to look for the trap, you are not doing whatever action it is to trigger it, or you already triggered it.
Unless you somehow think the act of looking for a trap sets it off?
"Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered."Explain to me how this can possibly require an action to look for it? If you are taking an action to look for the trap, you are not doing whatever action it is to trigger it, or you already triggered it.
Unless you somehow think the act of looking for a trap sets it off?
Nope, you spend action to look for the trap BEFORE you open the chest.
Example 1: Bill the barbarian says I am looking for traps on the door. GM rolls a 5 and notes that Bill does not spot the trap and tells Bill no traps.
Bill Crashes through the door failing to realize that opening it would trigger a trap.
Example 2: Bill the Barbarian tells the GM he is looking for traps on the treasure chest. Since he has only a couple of HP left and a perception of 4, he decides to take 20. After 20 rounds he notices the poison needle in the locking mechanism.
Now I have repeatedly references this back to 3.5 since the game is backwards compatible. This is what the rule compendium says.
The Search skill lets a creature discern something through active effort. A searcher must be within 10 feet of the object or surface to be searched. It takes a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side. The following table gives DCs for typical tasks involving the Search skill.
Its backward compatable but things to change from one to the other. There IS NO SEARCH SKILL anymore... and again, the text of the perception rules in the trap section of the actual pathfinder rules indicate that it happens when the player is about to activate the trap, not when he is spending an action looking for it.
If you spend an action to examine the chest for traps, you do not risk activating the trap. That does not work with the text in the trap section of the Pathfinder Rules. Though it would be better if they were not clear, your interpretation relies heavily on 3.5 material, mine comes from whats actually in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
I must say, I read the rules the way Ughbash and Twowlves seem to imply. If everyone could see a trap as a free action, why would spending a a talent slot be required for a rogue.
Also, I would think that a needle in a lock would be a lot harder to see on the fly than a 10x10 pit with a cover, but that states that you only have a chance to detect if you take the time to carefully examine the area. (pg 419)
Personally, I can't see where the reading would state that finding a trap (without trap spotter) would not require an active perception check (search), just like 3.5. Most things in perception do not require active use (former spot/listen checks or vs. stealth checks), but some do (traps, finding a secret door, searching a room for a hidden treasure, etc.)
This being said, just because that's how I run it in my game, you're free to run/read it however you want for yours.
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I understood the rouge talent as just increasing the range. It also allows the rouge the ability to detect traps that he wouldn't have set off. The way I understand it (with a free check automatically. its a little hard to understand who thinks which method is RAW) the check is only if you are about to set the trap off. Its a last second roll to avoid triggering the trap./QUOTE]
Last second rolls to avoid traps are in the game already. They are called Saving Throws. Rogues even get bonuses to save against them.
Why would the people at Paizo make the Trap Spotter talent if it wasn't needed? The very existance of this ability defines how spotting traps is supposed to work.
The rogue gets a perception check within 10 feet. Everyone gets a perception check right before they set it off. Rogue gets 2 chances to see it, one while in no danger of setting it off, and with the opportunity to have the big fighter/barbarian/whatever go in front of him. In 3.5 rogues, one of the squishier characters (though a little less so) always had to go first in dungeons to deal with traps, with trapsotter, you can stand behind the fighter and still spot the traps. Thats a boon well worth the talent on its own, let alone that it gives you a second perception check.
Its a small difference but if you're a rogue about to step onto a 100ft deep poisoned spike pit trap you worry about the little things on the way down. ^_^
I could see that happening like where the baddies are chasing the hero and the hero is looking back at the baddies while running, and at the last second the hero looks forward again right at the edge of a cliff (little rocks fall off the side for dramatic effects).
The save is the reflex to stop in time. For the rogue, it represents the ability to spot the trap (poison pit) from a few feet away as either instincts or well practiced eyes.
I understood the rouge talent as just increasing the range. It also allows the rouge the ability to detect traps that he wouldn't have set off. The way I understand it (with a free check automatically. its a little hard to understand who thinks which method is RAW) the check is only if you are about to set the trap off. Its a last second roll to avoid triggering the trap.Last second rolls to avoid traps are in the game already. They are called Saving Throws. Rogues even get bonuses to save against them.
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The rogue gets a perception check within 10 feet. Everyone gets a perception check right before they set it off. Rogue gets 2 chances to see it, one while in no danger of setting it off, and with the opportunity to have the big fighter/barbarian/whatever go in front of him. In 3.5 rogues, one of the squishier characters (though a little less so) always had to go first in dungeons to deal with traps, with trapsotter, you can stand behind the fighter and still spot the traps. Thats a boon well worth the talent on its own, let alone that it gives you a second perception check.
Why would the people at Paizo make the Trap Spotter talent if it wasn't needed? The very existance of this ability defines how spotting traps is supposed to work.
Your interpretations A) ignores the 3.5 ruleset upon which PRPG is not only based, but is heavily touted as backwards compatible with and B) assumes Perception is reactive and never active. For about 35 years, you have to state when and where you were looking for a trap, and I see nothing in the Pathfinder rules to make me think it's changed in any way. The entire "last second reaction to avoid" something is already codified in the rules as Reflex Saving Throws.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My two c-bills. The perception check doesn't prevent the trap from going off, rather it interrupts the action of the trap.
Examples. Character steps on pressure plate. Perception to feel it start to sink. Character is not flat footed against the dart.
Character steps on landmine, perception check to hear the 'click' of it arming. If the character lifts his foot (i.e. completes his move action) it goes off
Charcter walks into a tripwire, makes a perception check. She stops as it brushes against her leg (successful check) it doesn't go off as she's not completed the action to set it off.
Character turns a door knob. He fails the perception check (To notice the resistance is greater than expected). Rogue with trap sense gets perception roll (he's 10' away) If the rogue makes it, he gets to take an action before the ceiling caves in.
Your interpretations A) ignores the 3.5 ruleset upon which PRPG is not only based, but is heavily touted as backwards compatible with and B) assumes Perception is reactive and never active. For about 35 years, you have to state when and where you were looking for a trap, and I see nothing in the Pathfinder rules to make me think it's changed in any way. The entire "last second reaction to avoid" something is already codified in the rules as Reflex Saving Throws.
Except the last second to avoid rule specifically says perception check and not saving throw. So yes, I would call that a perception check. In addition, I also ignore the 3.5 ruleset on grapple, should I not? Somethings have been changed in pathfinder, I believe this is one of them. While pathfinder is backwards compatable, 3.5 faq and rulings dont neccessarily apply. Lots of subtle changes are there, like shared spells for instance which has been reworded.
And yes for the last 35 years you have had to state when you were looking for a trap, and you know what? It made games drag in dungeons where traps are common to the point of loosing any fun you could have had from the challenge or the danger. Parties get paranoid, search every five foot square and totally bog down the whole adventure. A 'passive' action to spot traps is an excellent idea and it is supported in the line that I quoted.
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And yes for the last 35 years you have had to state when you were looking for a trap, and you know what? It made games drag in dungeons where traps are common to the point of loosing any fun you could have had from the challenge or the danger. Parties get paranoid, search every five foot square and totally bog down the whole adventure.
That's why Take 20 was added to the rules.
A 'passive' action to spot traps is an excellent idea and it is supported in the line that I quoted.
I don't agree. The wording to Perception was made the was it was because they were including passive and active skills from 3.5 into one skill. Nothing I've read leads me to believe they made a deliberate change to how the skill is supposed to work. Perception (Search) is active, Perception (Spot/Listen) is reactive. You actively search for hidden things, like traps. You react to relatively covert things, like noises or creatures in the distance. You get last minute attempts to avoid negative consequences from your environment through Saving Throws.
"Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered." Just means that if you make an active search of an object or area and succeed in a Perception check, you don't spring the trap. Giving everyone a Perception check to spot a trap reactively severely weakens traps. Pathfinder already removed the Rogue-only ability to detect traps with a DC higher than 20, interpreting the rule the way you suggest hamstrings traps to the point of impotence.
Trap Spotting turns an active skill check into a passive one with a limited range, and that's worthy of a talent. If Perception worked the way you claim, then you should be able to take a -1/10' distance to Perception checks and spot traps from hundreds of feet away already. Neither interpretation makes a lick of sense.
And yes for the last 35 years you have had to state when you were looking for a trap, and you know what? It made games drag in dungeons where traps are common to the point of loosing any fun you could have had from the challenge or the danger. Parties get paranoid, search every five foot square and totally bog down the whole adventure.That's why Take 20 was added to the rules.
A 'passive' action to spot traps is an excellent idea and it is supported in the line that I quoted.I don't agree. The wording to Perception was made the was it was because they were including passive and active skills from 3.5 into one skill. Nothing I've read leads me to believe they made a deliberate change to how the skill is supposed to work. Perception (Search) is active, Perception (Spot/Listen) is reactive. You actively search for hidden things, like traps. You react to relatively covert things, like noises or creatures in the distance. You get last minute attempts to avoid negative consequences from your environment through Saving Throws.
"Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered." Just means that if you make an active search of an object or area and succeed in a Perception check, you don't spring the trap. Giving everyone a Perception check to spot a trap reactively severely weakens traps. Pathfinder already removed the Rogue-only ability to detect traps with a DC higher than 20, interpreting the rule the way you suggest hamstrings traps to the point of impotence.
Trap Spotting turns an active skill check into a passive one with a limited range, and that's worthy of a talent. If Perception worked the way you claim, then you should be able to take a -1/10' distance to Perception checks and spot traps from hundreds of feet away already. Neither interpretation makes a lick of sense.
Unless like it says you only get the 'free' perception check when you are about to spring the trap, since perception for traps is the search aspect and cannot be done at range normally.
Trap spotting lets you do it at range safely behind the fighter, in addition to the chance the fighter gets when he is about to activate the trap. That is still worthy of a talent.
And yea, searching for a trap most of the time will not set it off (except certain trigger events). So the sentance makes no sense in that case, you arent about to set it off. If its in the square to my right, and i actively search for it, but them move left, i never had any chance of setting it off in the first place.
As for hamstringing traps, it does nothing of the kind. All it does is speed up the process. You still have to hit the perceptio dc like you used to. The different is you dont have the party rogue making a roll every 5 feet to check for traps, which bogs down gameplay. The chance for the player to miss the trap is exactly the same. The only different is the number of times per game you are rolling to check for them.
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You are "about to spring" a Symbol trap when you are 60' away, so that interpretation is false on it's face. Do you get a -6 on your Perception check in this case?
If searching every 5' square for a trap bogs down the game, why is it not even MORE of a drag to let the fighter AND the rogue roll checks to spot every trap they come to?
As opposed to a Rogue "Taking 20", which you still won't admit is a valid means of avoiding this game play slow-down you claim is a problem, and is already part and parcel of the rules. Or the fact that "last second avoidance rolls" for traps are Saving Throws. Barbarians and Rogues get a bonus to these saves, as well as a bonus to AC vs traps. If there were meant to be some kind of last second Perception roll to detect and avoid a trap, logically the Trap Sense ability of these classes should provide a bonus to these rolls, and they don't.
Trap Spottingturns an active check (requiring a Move action) into a passive check (a Reaction). That's worthy of a talent. Your interpretation makes no sense, since if Perception checks to find traps were reations anyway, they should be useable at a greater range than only 10', and all this talent would do is save you the +1DC you'd take for being 10' away. Not really worth a talent.
And yes for the last 35 years you have had to state when you were looking for a trap, and you know what? It made games drag in dungeons where traps are common to the point of loosing any fun you could have had from the challenge or the danger. Parties get paranoid, search every five foot square and totally bog down the whole adventure. A 'passive' action to spot traps is an excellent idea and it is supported in the line that I quoted.
This is what the Rogue talent trap spotter is for. This makes rogues more valuable have along. Giving all characters a free perception check to detect a trap cheapens that talent.
Rogues get the free check within 10' if they have the talent. No one else gets a free check. Other characters must make an active perception check ("I am going to search for traps, DM, sir.")
This is all there is to it and has been explained a few times in different ways in this thread. You are welcome to run your game how you like.
You are "about to spring" a Symbol trap when you are 60' away, so that interpretation is false on it's face. Do you get a -6 on your Perception check in this case?
If searching every 5' square for a trap bogs down the game, why is it not even MORE of a drag to let the fighter AND the rogue roll checks to spot every trap they come to?
As opposed to a Rogue "Taking 20", which you still won't admit is a valid means of avoiding this game play slow-down you claim is a problem, and is already part and parcel of the rules. Or the fact that "last second avoidance rolls" for traps are Saving Throws. Barbarians and Rogues get a bonus to these saves, as well as a bonus to AC vs traps. If there were meant to be some kind of last second Perception roll to detect and avoid a trap, logically the Trap Sense ability of these classes should provide a bonus to these rolls, and they don't.
Trap Spottingturns an active check (requiring a Move action) into a passive check (a Reaction). That's worthy of a talent. Your interpretation makes no sense, since if Perception checks to find traps were reations anyway, they should be useable at a greater range than only 10', and all this talent would do is save you the +1DC you'd take for being 10' away. Not really worth a talent.
U'm how exactly does taking 20 not bog down the rule? Its a little bit faster then actually rolling a die, but you still have to do it for every square you want to search.
Player I take 20 to earch this square is there a trap?Dm No
Player what about the next one?
Dm No
.... [30 minutes of play time and a week of gametime later
Dm you have reached the end of the first hallway.
Again I am saying that you can only get the 'free' perception check if YOU [the character you are playing] is about to set off the trap. That is one 'free' perception PER TRAP. That bogs nothing down unless you put traps every 5 feat.
And yes, i know what saving throws are, its great you like them so much. And they avoid the EFFECTS OF THE TRAP. They do not avoid SETTING THE TRAP OFF. These are different things.
"Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered. "
Notice how it says perception check there, not saving throw. Notice how it also says that whole bit about triggering the trap. If i was actively looking for it, I am not going to set it off except in rare circumstances with specific trigger functions. Therefore it has to happen when I am taking the action to set off the trap, reactively, as the description of the perception skill says most perception checks are.
The line about perception checks say right before you set off the trap, meaning unless the trap is set off at range, you dont get the check untill you are about to set it off, you arent getting a perception check unless A you look for it intentionally, or B someone has trapspotter. Meaning you just stepped on the pressure plate, you heard click, and freeze. Trap doesnt go off, you have a chance to do something, but if you move further the trap is sprung. This makes sense in world, and in game rules.
I am not saying you should be able to spot them at a distance normally, so please dont put words in my mouth.
And no trapsense doesnt provide a bonus to the role to spot a trap at the last second, Trapfinding (you know that thing rogues get) does so I dont know where you are going with this.
And yes for the last 35 years you have had to state when you were looking for a trap, and you know what? It made games drag in dungeons where traps are common to the point of loosing any fun you could have had from the challenge or the danger. Parties get paranoid, search every five foot square and totally bog down the whole adventure. A 'passive' action to spot traps is an excellent idea and it is supported in the line that I quoted.This is what the Rogue talent trap spotter is for. This makes rogues more valuable have along. Giving all characters a free perception check to detect a trap cheapens that talent.
Rogues get the free check within 10' if they have the talent. No one else gets a free check. Other characters must make an active perception check ("I am going to search for traps, DM, sir.")
This is all there is to it and has been explained a few times in different ways in this thread. You are welcome to run your game how you like.
While it has been 'explained' you have not explained the line in the traps section of the rules regarding perception checks. And the rogues talent isnt cheapened as he can now do his spotting from behind the fighter which any rogue will tell you is a much more pleasant place to be.
While it has been 'explained' you have not explained the line in the traps section of the rules regarding perception checks. And the rogues talent isnt cheapened as he can now do his spotting from behind the fighter which any rogue will tell you is a much more pleasant place to be.This is what the Rogue talent trap spotter is for. This makes rogues more valuable have along. Giving all characters a free perception check to detect a trap cheapens that talent.
Rogues get the free check within 10' if they have the talent. No one else gets a free check. Other characters must make an active perception check ("I am going to search for traps, DM, sir.")
This is all there is to it and has been explained a few times in different ways in this thread. You are welcome to run your game how you like.
I didn't think it needed further explanation, but ok.
This:
"Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered. "
Means that if a character chooses to search for traps (by making an active perception check) and they succeed, they detect the trap without setting it off. That's it. If they choose to not actively search for traps, there is no perception check. Thus, a rogue with the trap spotter talent becomes a valuable addition to the party.
While it has been 'explained' you have not explained the line in the traps section of the rules regarding perception checks. And the rogues talent isnt cheapened as he can now do his spotting from behind the fighter which any rogue will tell you is a much more pleasant place to be.This is what the Rogue talent trap spotter is for. This makes rogues more valuable have along. Giving all characters a free perception check to detect a trap cheapens that talent.
Rogues get the free check within 10' if they have the talent. No one else gets a free check. Other characters must make an active perception check ("I am going to search for traps, DM, sir.")
This is all there is to it and has been explained a few times in different ways in this thread. You are welcome to run your game how you like.
I didn't think it needed further explanation, but ok.
This:
"Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered. "Means that if a character chooses to search for traps (by making an active perception check) and they succeed, they detect the trap without setting it off. That's it. If they choose to not actively search for traps, there is no perception check. Thus, a rogue with the trap spotter talent becomes a valuable addition to the party.
Rather then go back and forth again with the same arguments that neither of us are going to accept, I would just ask and hope that some clarification can be provided by the game designers in an errata or faq. Perhaps I am seeing what I wish to see (and would have house ruled anyway) but i still think that your interpretation relies heavily on the 3.5 rules for traps. There is nothing that says traps are the expection to the 'most of the time' passive rule of perception and it is only the as was said 35 years of actively looking for traps that really supports such a view.
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U'm how exactly does taking 20 not bog down the rule? Its a little bit faster then actually rolling a die, but you still have to do it for every square you want to search.
Player I take 20 to earch this square is there a trap?
Dm No
Player what about the next one?
Dm No
.... [30 minutes of play time and a week of gametime later
Dm you have reached the end of the first hallway.
Like this:
Player = "Hey Mr DM, are there any traps in here? I search the whole room and I take 20."
DM = "You don't find any traps in this room after XX minutes of searching."
Not a difficult concept.
"Creatures that succeed on a Perception check detect a trap before it is triggered. "
Notice how it says perception check there, not saving throw.
I see it. It makes perfect sense, in the context of "I search for traps, I make a Perception check, I succeed and thus detect the trap without setting it off"
Notice how it also says that whole bit about triggering the trap. If i was actively looking for it, I am not going to set it off except in rare circumstances with specific trigger functions.
Maybe you should read all the different ways you can set off a trap. There are a LOT of ways you can set off a trap by looking for it, it isn't remotely "rare". Symbols and Glyphs come to mind.
Therefore it has to happen when I am taking the action to set off the trap, reactively, as the description of the perception skill says most perception checks are.
Most, not all. Searching for anything has always been an active check, spotting something is reactive. Never in the history of this game do you "Spot" a trap, you "Search" for them. Nothing in this version of the game or this wording of the rules lends itself to reversing this.
The line about perception checks say right before you set off the trap, meaning unless the trap is set off at range, you dont get the check untill you are about to set it off, you arent getting a perception check unless A you look for it intentionally, or B someone has trapspotter. Meaning you just stepped on the pressure plate, you heard click, and freeze. Trap doesnt go off, you have a chance to do something, but if you move further the trap is sprung. This makes sense in world, and in game rules.
I am not saying you should be able to spot them at a distance normally, so please dont put words in my mouth.
Yes you are. You set off many traps by Proximity Triggers, which can be 60' away from the source of the trap. There is no "click", no "sis-boom-baa", no "alakazam" to preface the exploding of a trap with a proximity trigger. If you were able to reflexively make a Perception check to notice these types of traps, you would have to take a range pentlty. Your interpretation pretty much has to allow this.
Nowhere does it say "right before you set off the trap", it says "detect before it is triggered". Actively searching for a proximity trigger trap lets you detect it before it is triggered. By the time you step on a location trigger ("pressure plate") you have activated it. You have met the trigger criteria, the trap goes off. Depending on the type of trap, you either have to make a save or avoid an attack roll (or sometimes, you just have to eat it). Trap Sense helps now, Perception does not. Trapfinding helps your active search for the trap, Trap Sense helps you when you bomb the search and have to suffer the consequences.
PRD
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Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
The problem is that observable stimulus is not defined.
I would rule the reactive check as an opposed check that includes sight or sound, such as someone moving, or a dim light source, but not someone or something that is already hidden.
Anything that is hidden such as a trap, or a rogue lying in wait would have to be specifically called out by the player.
U'm how exactly does taking 20 not bog down the rule? Its a little bit faster then actually rolling a die, but you still have to do it for every square you want to search.
Player I take 20 to earch this square is there a trap?
Dm No
Player what about the next one?
Dm No
.... [30 minutes of play time and a week of gametime later
Dm you have reached the end of the first hallway.Like this:
Player = "Hey Mr DM, are there any traps in here? I search the whole room and I take 20."
DM = "You don't find any traps in this room after XX minutes of searching."
Not a difficult concept.
Except that is incredibly impractical in terms of actual game time. That is 10 rounds per 5ft square [20 move actions]. In a 20/20 room that is already 16 minutes. 40x40 and you are already over an hour. If you in a large hall or in a wooded area, big cavern, it could take a day or more. Do you often let your rogue stop the adventure for hours at a time to search for traps?
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No, but my party's rogue isn't so paranoid, and rightfully so. The mythic trap-filled dungeon is an extreme rarity, so searching every 5' square is unnecessary in any case.
It matters not how long in-game it takes to Take 20 on Perception/Search checks, in real-time it takes mere seconds and involved absolutely NO dice rolling. The opposite of "bogging down play". If the adventure isn't under time constraints, it's absolutely the smartest move.
Here's a DM tip: If you want the traps to have a chance of affecting any PCs, make them operate under a tight schedule so they can't Take 20 all over the place.
No, but my party's rogue isn't so paranoid, and rightfully so. The mythic trap-filled dungeon is an extreme rarity, so searching every 5' square is unnecessary in any case.
It matters not how long in-game it takes to Take 20 on Perception/Search checks, in real-time it takes mere seconds and involved absolutely NO dice rolling. The opposite of "bogging down play". If the adventure isn't under time constraints, it's absolutely the smartest move.
Here's a DM tip: If you want the traps to have a chance of affecting any PCs, make them operate under a tight schedule so they can't Take 20 all over the place.
I have never seen a group hit more then one trap in a dungeon and NOT become paranoid. They always get cautious after the first missed trap or two, and none of them WANT to take 20, they want to roll for it. The dont want to spend an hour searching as they walk, but they want to search.
I guess its a matter of style, i dont force anything on my pc's if they want to take their time they take their time. There are ofcourse always reactions to this story wise. However regardless of any interpretation of the current rules, I long ago house ruled a passive perception for traps, so even if i am mistaken about pathfinder, that wont change anything.
As for traps having a chance to affect the pc's they already do. Even with a passive perception (my version is the pc's give me 20 rolls prior to the session, I use each of these along with their skill bonus for perceptions checks, or other checks they shouldnt know about). So for instance Camouflaged Pit Trap CR 3
Type mechanical; Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 20
A level 3 character with a full ranks in perception, a class skill, and a 14 wisdom (generous for anything but ranger), has a +8 perception. They need to have rolled a 17 in order to have seen the trap passive or not. It does however not stop the game every five minutes for the player to search for traps.
Flame Strike Trap CR 6
Type magic; Perception DC 30; Disable Device DC 30
Level 6 character 6 ranks class skill and lets say 16 wisdom. Thats +12 bunus vs a DC 30 trap, unless they have a perception item or skill focus perception, they arent going to see it.
Since I only give the 'free' perception when you are right about to trigger the trap, only on player has the option to roll it. There is still very much a chance for the trap to affect the pc's. Now if you sit there an let your players take 20 on every check I agree, it would be hard for them to get hit by a reasonable CR trap, but I certainly dont encourage it in my players.
So I guess in the end shall we say you do it your way and i'll do it mine? I very much doubt we are going to agree.
I never knew it was a search check for every square. It seem my house rule was taken as a real rule. For hallways I allow them to search if they move at half speed, and for small to medium rooms, taking 20 allows for the entire room to be searched in about 20 minutes.
I don't think it makes sense to find something that is well-hidden while moving at full speed.
I do understand this is about RAW so a perception check is only a move action so checking a square should only take about 3 seconds. At the most 6. Having the player make the rolls before the game starts or make random rolls, so they dont metagame is always an option. That way it does not take up game time, making rolls for every square if there is nothing there.
PS: The random rolls should be kept to a minimum.
Rather then go back and forth again with the same arguments that neither of us are going to accept, I would just ask and hope that some clarification can be provided by the game designers in an errata or faq. Perhaps I am seeing what I wish to see (and would have house ruled anyway) but i still think that your interpretation relies heavily on the 3.5 rules for traps. There is nothing that says traps are the expection to the 'most of the time' passive rule of perception and it is only the as was said 35 years of actively looking for traps that really supports such a view.
Fair enough. It makes sense that my interpretation relies heavily on 3.5 rules, since that's what Pathfinder is based on.
Like I said in my first post
This is all there is to it and has been explained a few times in different ways in this thread. You are welcome to run your game how you like.
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I keep stat cards on all my PCs with their total modifiers and saves (as well as HPs, ACs, languages known, etc) in any skill in which they might need to make but not know they are making, and I make the check behind the screen for them. For some Perception checks, I call openly for a roll, for others, it's a secret roll.
My two c-bills. The perception check doesn't prevent the trap from going off, rather it interrupts the action of the trap.
Examples. Character steps on pressure plate. Perception to feel it start to sink. Character is not flat footed against the dart.
Character steps on landmine, perception check to hear the 'click' of it arming. If the character lifts his foot (i.e. completes his move action) it goes off
Charcter walks into a tripwire, makes a perception check. She stops as it brushes against her leg (successful check) it doesn't go off as she's not completed the action to set it off.
Character turns a door knob. He fails the perception check (To notice the resistance is greater than expected). Rogue with trap sense gets perception roll (he's 10' away) If the rogue makes it, he gets to take an action before the ceiling caves in.
+1
My two c-bills. The perception check doesn't prevent the trap from going off, rather it interrupts the action of the trap.
I'm finding all the arguments here are making sense, but I really like Matthew's interpretation a lot. This works for me. Thanks for posting these examples.
Under the rules for mechanical traps, the second paragraph read to me as if everyone gets a free perception trap right before the trap is activated. Am I reading this correctly?
My two cents on the subject. I find it annoying to have to say 30 times in a game session that my eyes are still open. Perception unless you are actively looking for a specific thing should be an automatic reactive skill. If you are running at full speed you don't get an automatic chance to spot a covered pit trap, that tells me that if you're walking through a dungeon at a normal pace you do automtically get a chance to spot it. The rogue with trapspotter would get a chance when he came within 10 feet and possibly a chance to lure his enemy into it, and another chance when he was about to fall in. That doesn't mean that a ranger with +43 perception can't see the trap unless he "takes a move action" to open his eyes.
My understanding is the automatic roll is the difference between flatfooted AC and full AC when the trap makes its attack roll. If the rogue didn't detect the trap or the party did not actively search for it, that trap is going off.
Personally, I hate the Trap Spotter ability... It is WAY too easily abused, and simply just another way for players to get everything handed to them on the result of a die roll, instead of having to work for it. (And especially one that they can just pound skill points into to basically make the check an automatic success...) (Example: 6th Level Half-Elf Rouge with Trap Spotter - 6 Ranks + 3 Class Skill Points + 4 Sharp Senses Feat + 3 Skill Focus (Perception) + 3 Trapfinding Skill + 4 Canny Observer + 2 Alertness + 1 Pilgrim Trait = + 26 Perception, and given a continuation of skill points it will be + 35 at 10th level! Given a Glyph of Warding is a DC 28, this 6th level character has a 90% chance of finding this trap,and its automatic at 10th! Furthermore, at 10th level, this character could find this same trap 10% of the time in complete magical darkness with his hands tied behind his back!!! (Invisible +20 DC, Horrible Conditions +5 DC = 53 DC) At 10th level this character stands a chance of making this??? Just by passively being near it? What, did the rogue hear the glyph whispering to him or something? Or maybe he felt a disturbance in the force and Admiral Akbar appeared and warned him that it was a trap? I'm calling b***s**t...
While I love the game, this skill is pretty detrimental to game balance and good role-playing. A mechanical trap maybe, because a rogue is trained in such things, and knows what setting those kinds of traps entail, and can reasonably just pick out details of them easily, but magical traps should not be able to be found without an active search. In addition, a rogue cannot lay a magical trap, nor has the ability to understand and comprehend the level of magic necessary to disarm it, anyway. If they did, the modifier they should be using to disarm them is not DEX, but INT...
My solution to this was to create a spell - Obscure Trap. Fourth Level. Adds the caster's caster level + INT/CHA modifier to the DC for finding/disarming mechanical traps and completely eliminates the rogues ability to find/disarm magical traps at all by completely obscuring any evidence of the spell; rendering it undetectable to anything less than magical divination spells.
This forces players to actually roleplay their rogues instead of expecting the GM to do it for them...
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Personally, I hate the Trap Spotter ability... It is WAY too easily abused, and simply just another way for players to get everything handed to them on the result of a die roll, instead of having to work for it. (And especially one that they can just pound skill points into to basically make the check an automatic success...) (Example: 6th Level Half-Elf Rouge with Trap Spotter - 6 Ranks + 3 Class Skill Points + 4 Sharp Senses Feat + 3 Skill Focus (Perception) + 3 Trapfinding Skill + 4 Canny Observer + 2 Alertness + 1 Pilgrim Trait = + 26 Perception, and given a continuation of skill points it will be + 35 at 10th level! Given a Glyph of Warding is a DC 28, this 6th level character has a 90% chance of finding this trap,and its automatic at 10th! Furthermore, at 10th level, this character could find this same trap 10% of the time in complete magical darkness with his hands tied behind his back!!! (Invisible +20 DC, Horrible Conditions +5 DC = 53 DC) At 10th level this character stands a chance of making this??? Just by passively being near it? What, did the rogue hear the glyph whispering to him or something? Or maybe he felt a disturbance in the force and Admiral Akbar appeared and warned him that it was a trap? I'm calling b***s**t...
As far as I am concerned if a Rogue has wasted that much of his abilities to find traps he damn well better beable to smell a trap wherever he goes. In fact he should be able to find them when asleep or dead. If not then I am having to carry one pretty worthles party member around, which I am doing anyway if there is not a trap every 5ft.
Personally, I hate the Trap Spotter ability... It is WAY too easily abused, and simply just another way for players to get everything handed to them on the result of a die roll, instead of having to work for it. (And especially one that they can just pound skill points into to basically make the check an automatic success...) (Example: 6th Level Half-Elf Rouge with Trap Spotter - 6 Ranks + 3 Class Skill Points + 4 Sharp Senses Feat + 3 Skill Focus (Perception) + 3 Trapfinding Skill + 4 Canny Observer + 2 Alertness + 1 Pilgrim Trait = + 26 Perception, and given a continuation of skill points it will be + 35 at 10th level! Given a Glyph of Warding is a DC 28, this 6th level character has a 90% chance of finding this trap,and its automatic at 10th! Furthermore, at 10th level, this character could find this same trap 10% of the time in complete magical darkness with his hands tied behind his back!!! (Invisible +20 DC, Horrible Conditions +5 DC = 53 DC) At 10th level this character stands a chance of making this??? Just by passively being near it? What, did the rogue hear the glyph whispering to him or something? Or maybe he felt a disturbance in the force and Admiral Akbar appeared and warned him that it was a trap? I'm calling b***s**t...As far as I am concerned if a Rogue has wasted that much of his abilities to find traps he damn well better beable to smell a trap wherever he goes. In fact he should be able to find them when asleep or dead. If not then I am having to carry one pretty worthles party member around, which I am doing anyway if there is not a trap every 5ft.
That.
I would expect such a rogue's ghost to appear and tell me if there is a trap, while he is waiting to be resurected again.
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Personally, I hate the Trap Spotter ability... It is WAY too easily abused, and simply just another way for players to get everything handed to them on the result of a die roll, instead of having to work for it. (And especially one that they can just pound skill points into to basically make the check an automatic success...) (Example: 6th Level Half-Elf Rouge with Trap Spotter - 6 Ranks + 3 Class Skill Points + 4 Sharp Senses Feat + 3 Skill Focus (Perception) + 3 Trapfinding Skill + 4 Canny Observer + 2 Alertness + 1 Pilgrim Trait = + 26 Perception, and given a continuation of skill points it will be + 35 at 10th level! Given a Glyph of Warding is a DC 28, this 6th level character has a 90% chance of finding this trap,and its automatic at 10th! Furthermore, at 10th level, this character could find this same trap 10% of the time in complete magical darkness with his hands tied behind his back!!! (Invisible +20 DC, Horrible Conditions +5 DC = 53 DC) At 10th level this character stands a chance of making this??? Just by passively being near it? What, did the rogue hear the glyph whispering to him or something? Or maybe he felt a disturbance in the force and Admiral Akbar appeared and warned him that it was a trap? I'm calling b***s**t...As far as I am concerned if a Rogue has wasted that much of his abilities to find traps he damn well better beable to smell a trap wherever he goes. In fact he should be able to find them when asleep or dead. If not then I am having to carry one pretty worthles party member around, which I am doing anyway if there is not a trap every 5ft.
That.
I would expect such a rogue's ghost to appear and tell me if there is a trap, while he is waiting to be resurected again.
Or better yet, our Wizard can trap the dead Rogues spirit, the player can reroll a more well rounded and useful char to join the party and we can just carry the spirit of his old char around for the rest of our adventuring careers so that it can tell us a trap is around.