Extra Eidolon Forms?


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


Quadraped, Biped, and Serpentine seem a bit restrictive... Just a quick proposition...

Avian

Starting Statistics: Size SMALL*, Speed 30ft; AC +2 natural armor, Saves: Fort Bad, Ref Good, Will Good, Attack Claws (Talons) 1d3, Ability Scores Str 8, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions Limbs (legs), Flight*, Claws

An Avian Eidolon starts with Flight, though other Eidolons cannot gain flight until 5th level. Because of this, Avians start Small and may not be Medium sized until the summoner is at least 5th level.

Aquatic

Starting Statistics: Size Medium, Speed 20 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort Good, Ref Bad, Will Good, Attack Bite 1d6, Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions Bite, Swim, Gills, Skilled (Swim)


Adam Teles wrote:
An Avian Eidolon starts with Flight, though other Eidolons cannot gain flight until 5th level. Because of this, Avians start Small and may not be Medium sized until the summoner is at least 5th level.

Being small is not necessarily a disadvantage, so I don't think it's an appropriate way to balance against L1 flight abilities (which the devs have made clear they don't want available until level 5.


I think it's at least a partial disadvantage, but I do see your point. Perhaps have it cost extra EV at the low levels? The idea that a Wizard can start with a Hawk but a summoner can't just seems sideways. Perhaps an additional Con penalty should be applied?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Based on the bird animal companion that a druid can take on 1st level, I don't think an eidolon that flies at 1st level is inherently unbalancing. You'd have to say it isn't allowed to be larger than Small, and isn't allowed to take any evolution that adds additional limbs or natural attacks, prior to 5th level. Those restrictions would put it about on par with a bird animal companion.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Here's a rough brainstorm of a 'weapon' base form that I posted in another, less-appropriate thread.

Spoiler:
Eidolon Base Form: Weapon

Starting Statistics: Shape the eidolon resembles a melee weapon of a type chosen by the summoner; Size same as the chosen weapon; Speed 0 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (poor), Will (good); Attack none; Ability Scores Str -; Dex -; Con 13; Int 10; Wis 14; Cha 14; Free Evolutions breathless, living weapon, magic attacks, weapon proficiency (2); Restricted Evolutions cannot take any evolution that either adds or requires limbs.

---

New 1-Point Evolutions

Breathless: The eidolon doesn't need to breathe. This evolution is only available to eidolons with the weapon base form or, in theory, other object-like base forms.

Living Weapon: The eidolon can be wielded as if it were a masterwork weapon that matches its shape. Any evolution that would improve natural attacks made by the eidolon also improves melee attacks made using the eidolon as a weapon. (Attacks made using the eidolon as a weapon can be selected as natural attacks with evolutions that apply to only one of the eidolon's natural attacks.) In addition, the eidolon's summoner gains any armor and weapon proficiencies possessed by the eidolon. This evolution is only available to eidolons with the weapon base form.

The idea of this base form is that the eidolon can't move under its own power (though it can and should use spell-like abilities), but can be wielded as a masterwork weapon. Any evolution that would improve its natural attacks instead applies to attacks made using the eidolon as a weapon.


I figured out Flight's problem. Why is Flight super powerful on an Eidolon? The same reason it's super powerful on an Animal Companion or a Paladin's Special Mount, an effect that is nearly completely negated by a Small creature with flying.

A Medium Eidolon with Flight allows a Halfling Summoner to take Ride and various Mounted feats to fly as soon as he gains access to the flying summon. While an Avian summon who is medium sized would allow this instantly, a Small one would only afford it to Tiny casters and Summoners willing to learn Reduce Person (which is, in my experience, not a particularly useful spell.)

Nothing that ANY summoner can use Reduce Person to fly on his mount as of 5th level, and any can fly on his mount whenever he wants as of 6th, I can't imagine its overpowered to let already-small summoners do this at first.

On top of this, a level one druid can get...

Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 10 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 talons (1d4); Ability Scores Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision.

Compare to my
Starting Statistics: Size SMALL*, Speed 30ft., Fly 30 ft (average); AC +2 natural armor, Saves: Fort Bad, Ref Good, Will Good, Attack 2 Claws (Talons) 1d3, Ability Scores Str 8, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions Limbs (legs), Flight*, Claws, + 3 Evolution Points

The Avian has a significantly better AC, yes, but is doing about 2 less damage per attack and has a significantly slower fly speed. HP is about the same and, assuming one Evolution Point is spent to even out the attacks with a +bite, that's 2 Evolution points left over.

Is the Avian better/worse than the Animal Companion? With those 2 EVs, I'd put it at a bit better... But aren't Eidolons SUPPOSED to be better than animal companions, to make up for the fact that the Summoner sans Eidolon is significantly weaker than the Druid sans Animal Companion?


I would love to see some thoughts on Insectile forms. I don't have much to offer on ideas because, well, i was never very good at the crunch.
My current school of thought would be, say if you wanted to do a spider, use the quadreped base form, and handwave the extra legs as "fluff" that exist for show, but have no real impact on the mechanics of it all.

EDIT: of course, I would also switch out the clwas for bite, and change the stats abit, too.


I was thinking on Insectile forms, but I realized that pretty much all of them are quadrapeds. Bugs have at least 4 legs and they usually have some sort of bite attack. Which is what quadrapeds get. Even the particularly weird ones, like Praying Mantises, still have 4 legs and a bite, so for a mantis, I'd spend my 3 evolution points on Limbs (Arms) and Pincers. Or for a spider, I'd buy Poison and Climb and declare the extra legs with "fluff" because, well... By Eidolon rules, the fastest creature in the universe is the Centipede.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Adam Teles wrote:
...declare the extra legs with "fluff"...

I'm totally on board with declaring extra limbs as fluff. As long as any additional limbs have no game mechanical benefit, I think you should be able to assign as many limbs as you want to an eidolon.

Actually, that might be a way to have an avian eidolon at 1st level using only the existing eidolon rules - just declare that the eidolon has vestigial wings, but isn't sufficiently developed yet to use them for flight.


Problem:

Birds have wings and legs, but no hands. So you'd have to start with the Serpent form, which gives a bite and a tail slap... Now, some birds DO bute, but I've never heard of a bird with a tail slap.


<snipped and made into a new thread to avoid threadjacking>

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