Coolest evolution ever: Symbiotic Eidolon


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


Ok everyone, I just have to show off this totally sweet idea:

Symbiote (2 pts): The summoner and his eidolon are conjoined! This has a number of important benefits and hindrances:

First: They must always stay in adjacent squares, or they may share the same space as the larger of the two without penalty. When initiative is rolled at the beginning of combat, the summoner and eidolon only make one roll, adding the lower of their initiative bonuses, and act simultaneously on that initiative count. The pair must move at the slower of their two speeds unless one is strong enough to carry the other, or large enough to serve as a mount. Any attempt to move one away from the other (such as bull rush or grappling) must succeed against both the summoner and the eidolon, in which case they both move as indicated.

Second: When the summoner is reduced to -1 hp, he is rendered unconscious and must make constitution rolls to stabilize as normal, but further attack and spell damage directed at him is instead subtracted from the eidolon's hit points - the eidolon effectively gains and automatically uses the life link summoner class ability with respect to the summoner himself. At 14th level, this effect is replaced by the life bond ability.

Third: If the summoner casts a spell that targets only himself, as an immediate action he may spend an additional spell slot of the same level to have the eidolon also gain the effects of the spell, as though it were individually targeted by it.

Fourth: At first level, the summoner may share the benefit of up to 1 point of evolution that the eidolon possesses. At 4th level, the summoner may share a second point of evolutions, and an additional one every 4 levels thereafter (3 at 8th, 4 at 12th, etc.). Evolutions that grant limbs, attacks, or changes in size may not be shared in this way).

Fifth: When the summoner gains the aspect and greater aspect class abilities, any evolutions he takes are not subtracted from his eidolon's pool of evolution points.

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My observations:
Templating for the conjoined movement could be more rigorous; if someone has a problem with my abstract, suggest a better way to format it!

The life link ability could be adjusted to -con score to indicate real death, rather than just unconsciousness, and avoid complications from the diehard feat. They can still bleed out here, so it's in the eidolon's interests to carry them away and take care of them. Isn't what they're supposed to do anyway?

Shared spells seems a bit powerful, but in most cases I think the summoner's spells overlap very little in utility for himself vs. the eidolon. Tell me if I'm missing some especially degenerate spell that could exploit this.

Sharing evolutions is potent, but I think the sizeable risk the summoner takes by having to stay with the eidolon deserves some measure of benefit, too.

Lastly, since the summoner essentially loses the use of transposition and maker's call, we try to bump up the effects of the aspect class abilities.

Thoughts? Is anyone as jazzed as I am about playing a little dork summoner with a big brute genie thing sprouting out of his back, or a crazy mermaid with a sentient mass of tentacles and fangs where her legs oughtta go?


Not sure whether or not it'd fit the current vision, but I wouldn't be against it personally.


Maeloke wrote:

Ok everyone, I just have to show off this totally sweet idea:

Symbiote (2 pts): The summoner and his eidolon are conjoined! This has a number of important benefits and hindrances:

First: They must always stay in adjacent squares, or they may share the same space as the larger of the two without penalty. When initiative is rolled at the beginning of combat, the summoner and eidolon only make one roll, adding the lower of their initiative bonuses, and act simultaneously on that initiative count. The pair must move at the slower of their two speeds unless one is strong enough to carry the other, or large enough to serve as a mount. Any attempt to move one away from the other (such as bull rush or grappling) must succeed against both the summoner and the eidolon, in which case they both move as indicated.

Second: When the summoner is reduced to -1 hp, he is rendered unconscious and must make constitution rolls to stabilize as normal, but further attack and spell damage directed at him is instead subtracted from the eidolon's hit points - the eidolon effectively gains and automatically uses the life link summoner class ability with respect to the summoner himself. At 14th level, this effect is replaced by the life bond ability.

Third: If the summoner casts a spell that targets only himself, as an immediate action he may spend an additional spell slot of the same level to have the eidolon also gain the effects of the spell, as though it were individually targeted by it.

Fourth: At first level, the summoner may share the benefit of up to 1 point of evolution that the eidolon possesses. At 4th level, the summoner may share a second point of evolutions, and an additional one every 4 levels thereafter (3 at 8th, 4 at 12th, etc.). Evolutions that grant limbs, attacks, or changes in size may not be shared in this way).

Fifth: When the summoner gains the aspect and greater aspect class abilities, any evolutions he takes are not subtracted from his eidolon's pool of evolution points.

------------
...

+100,000,000

I totally stand by this from a gaming perspective, although I beleive this ability could step on the summoner's "Merge forms" toes a little by having it as an evolution. though the concept behind this is amazing and I tip my fro to you.

as a GM I'd allow it although in order to balance it I'd say make it a prerequisite to have a large eidolon, and life link if you intend to keep the cost two points

good work

-Azhagal


After some thought, it seems unnecessary and complicated to have the summoner and eidolon in separate, adjacent spaces, so lets say they always share the space of the larger one. It also seems simpler to treat the two as one creature for the purposes of trip, grapple, and bull rush attempts, so they'll use the higher of their two CMD scores against such attacks.

A sample symbiotic pair:

Crigg and Duro
Crigg is a bulky half-orc clad in several layers of cloaks, concealing a hunched back. When he calls his eidolon Duro, it sprouts through the cloaks, a spare humanoid emerging at the waist from Crigg's back. In combat, Crigg stands alongside the party fighter wielding a falchion, while Duro twists freely about, protecting his flank with strikes from its long, gangly arms.

Crigg, Level 1:

Crigg
CG medium humanoid (orc)
Init +2 (acts on +1); Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception -1

DEFENSIVE
HP 10 (d8 + 1)
AC 17 (+2 natural, +2 dex, +3 studded leather)
Saves Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +2

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft.
Melee falchion +3 (2d4+3/18-20)
Space 5ft. Reach 5ft.
Spell-like Abilities (CL 1st)
5/day- Summon Monster I
Spells Known (CL 1st)
1st (2/day)- Enlarge Person, Mage Armor
0- Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Mending, Read Magic

STATISTICS
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 15
BAB +0 CMB +2 CMD 14 (15 vs grapple, bull rush, and trip)
Feats Weapon Focus (falchion)
Skills Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +4,
Languages Common, Orc
SQ life link, orc ferocity, symbiote

ECOLOGY
Treasure falchion, studded leather armor, other starting equipment

Duro, Level 1:

Duro
CG medium outsider
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception +5

DEFENSIVE
HP 10 (2d10 + 1)
AC 19 (+4 natural, +1 dex, +4 mage armor)
Saves Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +3;

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft.
Melee 2 claws +5 (d6+3)
Space 5ft. Reach 5ft.

STATISTICS
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
BAB +2 CMB +2 CMD 14
Feats Improved Natural Weapon (Claws)
SQ Blindsight, Darkvision, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion
Skills Fly +6, Heal +5, Perception +5, Survival +5
Languages common, orc
SQ link, share spells

ECOLOGY
Treasure none

EVOLUTIONS
Free claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Chosen improved natural armor (1)(shared with Crigg), Symbiote (2)

By level 8, Duro has grown large enough to tower over Crigg from its spot on his back. Its build makes it light enough for Crigg to carry, but usually this is unnecessary, since it typically flies around with its summoner trailing below. Crigg continues to fight the good fight in melee, but spends a fair amount of time casting spells to help his party as well - particularly Duro.

Crigg, Level 8:

Crigg
CG medium humanoid (orc)
Init +3 (acts on +2); Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception -1

DEFENSIVE
HP 72 (8d8+32)
AC 27 (+4 natural, +3 dex, +6 +2 chain shirt, +3 barkskin, +1 deflection, +2 shield)
Saves Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +10

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft.
Melee falchion +11/+6 (2d4+5/18-20)
Space 5ft. Reach 5ft.
Spell-like Abilities (CL 8th)
7/day- Summon Monster IV
Spells Known (CL 8th)
3rd (3/day)- Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Heroism
2nd (5/day)- Barkskin, Haste, Invisibility, See Invisibility
1st (5/day)- Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Shield
0- Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Read Magic

STATISTICS
Str 14 (16 w/ belt)Dex 14 (16 w/ belt)Con 14 (16 w/ belt)Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 16 (18 with headband)
BAB +6 CMB +9 CMD 22 (29 vs grapple, bull rush, and trip)
Feats Combat Casting, Great Fortitude, Toughness, Weapon Focus (falchion)
Skills Handle Animal +10, Intimidate +6, Spellcraft +3, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Common, Orc
SQ life link, orc ferocity, shield ally, symbiote (shared: natural armor (2))

ECOLOGY
Treasure +1 falchion, +2 chain shirt, +2 Headband of Charisma, +1 Ring of protection, +2 belt of physical perfection, +2 cloak of resistance, 3x potion of cure critical wounds, bag of holding (type 1)

Duro, Level 8:

Duro
CG large outsider
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception +11

DEFENSIVE
HP 76 (8d10 + 32)
AC 26 (+12 natural, +2 dex, +4 mage armor, +1 deflection, -1 size)
Saves Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +8; +4 vs. enchantments

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft., Fly 30ft (perfect)
Melee 2 claws +13 (d8+15/19-20) (power attacking for -3/+6)
Space 10ft. Reach 5ft.

STATISTICS
Str 27 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
BAB +8 CMB +17 CMD 29
Feats Improved Critical (claws), Improved Natural Weapon (Claws), Iron Will, Power Attack
SQ Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion, Symbiote
Skills Fly +19, Heal +11, Perception +11, Survival +11
Languages common, orc

ECOLOGY
Treasure +1 amulet of mighty fists, +1 ring of protection

EVOLUTIONS
Free claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Chosen flight (perfect) (4), improved natural armor (2) (shared with Crigg), large size (3), symbiote (2)

At level 14, Crigg and Duro are a menace to all who approach. Duro has grown a second pair of arms and bulked out even more, looking like a massive genie sprouting from a half-orc-shaped lamp. Crigg is still a powerful melee combatant, lashing out with reach against foes that try to close with him and his eidolon.

Crigg, Level 14:

Crigg
CG medium humanoid (orc)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception -1

DEFENSIVE
HP 151 (14d8+70)
AC 41 (+6 natural, +4 dex, +9 +5 chain shirt, +5 barkskin, +3 deflection, +4 shield)
Saves Fort +19, Ref +19, Will +19

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft.
Melee falchion +18/+13 (2d4+9/14-20)
Space 5ft. Reach 10ft.
Spell-like Abilities (CL 14th)
10/day- Summon Monster VII
Spells Known (CL 14th)
5th (3/day)- Greater Heroism, Greater Teleport, True Seeing,
4th (5/day)- Dismissal (DC 21), Hold Monster (DC 21), Major Creation, Sending,
3rd (6/day)- Dispel Magic, Fly, Greater Invisibility, Heroism, Stoneskin
2nd (7/day)- Alter Self, Barkskin, Haste, Invisibility, Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Slow (DC 19)
1st (7/day)- Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Shield
0- Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Read Magic

STATISTICS
Str 14 (18 w/ belt)Dex 14 (18 w/ belt)Con 14 (18 w/ belt)Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 18 (24 with headband)
BAB +10 CMB +14 CMD 28 (36 vs grapple, bull rush, and trip)
Feats Combat Casting, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (falchion), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness, Weapon Focus (falchion)
Skills Handle Animal +10, Intimidate +6, Spellcraft +3, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Common, Orc
SQ aspect (reach, resist fire 15), life link, orc ferocity, symbiote (shared: natural armor (3))

ECOLOGY
Treasure +3 falchion, +5 chain shirt, +6 Headband of Charisma, +3 Ring of protection, +4 belt of physical perfection, +5 cloak of resistance, 3x potion of cure critical wounds

Duro, Level 14:

Duro
CG large outsider
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception +15

DEFENSIVE
HP 133 (14d10 + 56)
AC 38 (+18 natural, +3 dex, +4 mage armor, +3 deflection, +1 dodge, -1 size)
Saves Fort +17 (21), Ref +12 (16), Will +13 (17); +4 vs. enchantments, evasion, improved evasion. Parenthetical values include bonus from greater heroism

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft., Fly 50ft. (perfect)
Melee 4 claws +22 (2d6+19/19-20 plus d6 electricity) (w/ greater heroism, power attacking for -4/+8)
Space 10ft. Reach 5ft.

STATISTICS
Str 30 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
BAB +12 CMB +23 CMD 36
Feats Dodge, Improved Critical (claws), Improved Natural Weapon (Claws), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack(b) Power Attack
SQ Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion, Improved Evasion, Symbiote
Skills Fly +24, Heal +15, Perception +15, Survival +15
Languages common, orc

ECOLOGY
Treasure +1 shocking amulet of mighty fists, +3 ring of protection, +3 cloak of resistance

EVOLUTIONS
Free claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Chosen claws (1), flight (perfect, +20 ft.) (5), improved damage (claws) (1), improved natural armor (3) (shared with Crigg), large size (3), limbs (arms) (2), symbiote (2)


Shades of Impure Princes there, but I like where you're going with this.


Me'mori wrote:
Shades of Impure Princes there, but I like where you're going with this.

Huh, I'd never read that. Eberron was just full of random tangential expansions that nobody wanted to bother with in my group.

What do people think of the overall power level? I've been trying builds to see what actually plays out.

As I've formulated stuff so far, I've found

Pros:
-Increased CMD for many tests
-Increased potential summoner defenses (natural armor, resistance to energy, eventually DR and SR, and increased ability scores)
-Constantly gain benefit of shield ally ability
-Shared hp pool means summoner tends to live despite getting ko'd, -Overlap with aspect ability means summoner can end up with many evolutions.

Cons:
-Mobility and initiative very limited, especially at early levels
-Eidolon ability selection tends to be hindered (must take evolutions that can transfer to summoner)
-makers call and transposition powers become irrelevant
-loss of distinct units (cannot flank, significantly limited exploration options)
-Loss of 2 evolution points (hurts especially bad at 1st-5th level)
-Exposure to combat situations inappropriate for a light-armor caster

Summoner spell selection is pretty so-so; they lack the real hardcore cleric smackdown spells, but if they pile on the buffs, they make for a very high-AC, low damage fighter type. Symbiote evolution helps with this, typically yielding a few extra points of natural armor or, at higher levels, a healthy dose of DR.

More defensive builds yield a very hardy caster, but tend to cost the eidolon it's killer edge in combat. The resulting eidolon just cannot dish out the damage when it's spending points on mobility and defenses.

Eidolon -> summoner hp sharing is a bit too powerful, so I'm thinking I'll cut it. If the summoner goes down, he stays down and bleeds out unless the eidolon can drag him to safety or kill the attackers. Or make a heal check, or drop a potion on him. Helpers with opposable thumbs are nice.

After that adjustment, I'd say the evolution is fairly well-costed. It's got some perks, but in the end there's very little that couldn't be achieved by just riding the thing.

Anyone else have thoughts?


Revised symbiote evolution:

Symbiote (2 pts): The summoner and his eidolon are conjoined! This has a number of important benefits and hindrances:

First: They share the same space as the larger of the two without penalty. When initiative is rolled at the beginning of combat, the summoner and eidolon only make one roll, adding the lower of their initiative bonuses, and act simultaneously on that initiative count. The pair must move at the slower of their two speeds unless one is strong enough to carry the other, or large enough to serve as a mount. Any grapple, trip, or bull rush attempts made against the summoner or eidolon are made against the higher of their two CMD scores (they back each other up). If any of these maneuvers are successful against this CMB, both summoner and eidolon are effected. Similarly, any situation that calls for a check or save against being moved is opposed by the higher of their respective abilities or saves.

Second: If the summoner casts a spell that targets only himself, as an immediate action he may spend an additional spell slot of the same level to have the eidolon also gain the effects of the spell, as though it were individually targeted by it.

Third: At first level, the summoner may share the benefit of up to 1 point of evolution that the eidolon possesses. At 4th level, the summoner may share a second point of evolutions, and an additional one every 4 levels thereafter (3 at 8th, 4 at 12th, etc.). Evolutions that grant limbs, spell-like abilities, attacks, or changes in size may not be shared in this way).

Fourth: When the summoner gains the aspect and greater aspect class abilities, any evolutions he takes are not subtracted from his eidolon's pool of evolution points.

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