I was thinking about some concepts that the current evolutions do not cover, so here are a few ideas. I hope some good ones may appear.
Protect Summoner (1): The eidolon absorbs the summoner, protecting him while it's summoned. While in this state, the summoner may perform no actions, only communicating mentally with the eidolon. If the eidolon is killed or banished, the summoner is ejected and is nauseated for 1 round.
Activating or realizing this ability takes a full round, and provokes attacks of opportunity.
(this enables playing with just the eidolon sometimes, without increasing power)
Voice of the Summoner (1): Pre-req: Protect summoner. While the summoner is absorbed or merged with the eidolon, the eidolon uses the mental scores of the summoner or his own, whichever is better, also he access to the summoner skill ranks.
(I not make an evolution allowing spells since it's gained later)
[b]Intelectual(2): The eidolon's charisma and inteligence scores increase by 4 points, while his strength and constitution decrease by 2 points. This evolution can be taken again at 5th level and every 4 levels after.
(I would think about even reducing it's cost. something has to compete with the brute type eidolon and that overly cheap size increase)
Protective aura (2): the eidolon is constantly surrounded by Magic Circle against his opposed alignment. the circle may be dispelled but the eidolon can raise it again as a free action. The eidolon may activate or deactivate this ability at will.
(One of my players tried to create an angel eidolon. this could have helped)
Protective sphere(2): Pre-req: protective aura. The eidolon is surrounded by a sphere that mimics a Lesser globe of invulnerability.the sphere may be dispelled but the eidolon can raise it again as a free action. The eidolon may activate or deactivate this ability at will.
Healing touch(2): The eidolon may transfer some of it's hit points to a damaged creature. One a single creature has been healed this way, it can't be target of this ability until the next day. If the eidolon reaches 0 or less hitponts using this ability, it's unsummoned and cannot be called again for 24 hours.
(This ability could be dramatic)
Incorporeal(4): The eidolon may become incorporeal a number of minutes per equal to it's hit die. While in this state, the eidolon loses his natural armor, but gains a deflection bonus equal to his charisma modifier and is immune to normal attacks, magic weapons and effects deal only 50% damage. Also, he's able to deliver a disrupting touch that deals 1d6 plus his charisma modifier damage.
Energy ray(3): Pre-req: energy attack.As a standart action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the eidolon may release a ray with a ranged touch attack that deals 1d6 per 2 hit die it has. The type of damage is the same as the selected energy attack. The eidolon can use this ability at will.
Petrifying gaze(3): The eidolon gains a 30' range petrifying gaze attack. An affected creature must attempt a fortitude save equal to 10 + 1/2 the eidolon's HD plus its charisma modifier. A creature that fails 3 consecutive saves is permanently turned to stone. A summoner mus be 9th level to select this evolution.
Song of planes(3): As a move action the eidolon can start to sing an enthralling melody. Enemies in a 60' spread are affected by a Calm emotions effect. The DC to resist is 10 + 1/2 the eidolon's HD plus its charisma modifier. A single creature cannot be affected by this ability more than once per day. Attacking or harming an affected creature ends the effect.
Grace(4)[/4]: the Eidolon receives bonus to all his saving trows equal to his charisma bonus. While within 5' of the eidolon, the summoner recieves the bonus as well.
[b]Energy aura(2):Pre-req: energy attack. The eidolon is constantly surrounded by his chosen energy. Natural attacks and attacks with handheld weapons (not reach weapons) cause the attacker to take 1d6 points of the chosen energy damage.
Energy Subtype(1): The eidolon acquires an energy subtype. He does not become immune to his chosen element, but only receives half damage from it. He gains a vulnerability on the opposite element, and may select energy evolutions for half the evolution cost.
Alternate Form(1): The eidolon gains an alternate harmless form. It may be of a humanoid or small animal. The eidolon can remain in this form indefinily, but he gains none of his other evolution benefits while doing so. (except mental atribute changes)
Weapon form(1): By binding itself to an existing weapon, the eidolon may gain a weapon form. while in this form the eidolon acts as an intelligent item, and may use any of his spell-like abilities. The bound weapon may be changed with a ritual that takes an hour. Only magic weapons may be bound this way. When turning into his original form, the eidolon appears holding the selected weapon.
I'll think about some other ideas latter. Opinions?
|
Intelectual(2): The eidolon's charisma and inteligence scores increase by 4 points, while his strength and constitution decrease by 2 points. This evolution can be taken again at 5th level and every 4 levels after.(I would think about even reducing it's cost. something has to compete with the brute type eidolon and that overly cheap size increase)
There is already a method of increasing the ability scores of an eidelon and it's ability increase and it costs two points. This evolution is actually underpriced.
instead how about it says
intellectual (2): The eidelon substitutes his Str/Dex bonus with an Int/Cha bonus.
then if the player wants to increase it further he can pay for ability increase.
Intelectual(2): The eidolon's charisma and inteligence scores increase by 4 points, while his strength and constitution decrease by 2 points. This evolution can be taken again at 5th level and every 4 levels after.(I would think about even reducing it's cost. something has to compete with the brute type eidolon and that overly cheap size increase)
There is already a method of increasing the ability scores of an eidelon and it's ability increase and it costs two points. This evolution is actually underpriced.
instead how about it says
intellectual (2): The eidelon substitutes his Str/Dex bonus with an Int/Cha bonus.
then if the player wants to increase it further he can pay for ability increase.
The idea is to make it as appealing as the size increase evolution, that gives around 6 Ev. points for the price of 3, and give ability points that stack with the ability increase.
I like a lot of your ideas! Some of them are probably a little too powerful as currently phrased, however.
Intellectual - I like lastknightleft's recommendation here. For making smart base eidolons, I think a better option would be to lobby for point-buy starting ability scores (try it with 10 pts - we were discussing it in this thread. For competition with the size bruisers, I submit the Elite evolution below as an alternative.
Protective Aura - probably too cheap by 2 points, but there's no reason this couldn't be an option. I get why eidolons don't get divine SLA's (too much spellcasting pollution in an arcane class) but this one is highly appropriate for divine sorts.
Protective Sphere - I like this, but see no reason to tie an antimagic field to alignment magic like the aura. If you want an affordable permanent Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, it *has* to function at all times (becoming a hindrance to the summoner's buffs). I'd say 4 points, and it automatically resets the round after being dispelled. Probably minimum level 5, too. Still, golem much?
Healing Touch - put a hp cap on that sucker!
Incorporeal & Energy Ray - both excellent. I can't stand that there's no good ranged attack option in the base list. I'd vote for a minimum level 5-8 on incorporeal, though.
Petrifying Gaze - Gaze is probably too dangerous an ability for a creature that trucks around with an adventuring party.
Song of Planes - Interesting way to leverage in bard abilities, but probably better off as an SLA.
Grace - probably too powerful. Especially if we're giving eidolons more cha increase options, this sort of thing gets degenerate. We're talking +4-6 on all saves *easy*.
Energy Aura & Subtype - More cool thoughts for the elemental theme. I think I would remove the 'cheapens elemental evolutions' part from subtype, or amend it to just include energy immunity (when it becomes available at level 7).
Alternate Form - I think this might enable the huge combat monster eidolons a bit too much. Dont cheapen the effort for summoners who are trying to keep things more reasonable at the expense of combat efficacy.
Weapon Form - I've seen this idea floating around, but I still haven't seen it done full justice. Most exhaustive attempt I've read thus far is this post.
Overall, its a good batch of ideas you've got. The energy ones are especially appealing; I'd totally build a fiery efreet-style eidolon if I had access to 'em.
I posted these in another thread, but though I'd assemble them here since there's already brainstorming going on:
Clever (2 pts): Choose a bonus feat (more than fair, considering they get many useful feats for 1 pt)
Limb (1 pt): The eidolon has an additional arm, leg, tentacle, or tail. Note: none of these are inherently able to attack. An arm may carry a weapon, however.
(note: Basically, this replaces all the separate limb evolutions, and lets you make a 3-legged 1-armed goon for 4 points instead of 6. Also, it answers the issues of tentacles being overpowered, giving both limb + attack for only 1 pt)
Elite (4 pts): The eidolon gains the advanced (simple) template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 natural armor). This may only be purchased for medium or small eidolons, and only after level 12. This evolution may not be given to the summoner via the Greater Aspect class ability.
Unnatural Anatomy (2 pts): The eidolon has unnatural physiology, making it difficult to injure. Whenever it is struck by a critical hit or sneak attack, it has a 25% chance of ignoring the extra damage. At 6th level, this may be increased to 50% for an additional 2 points (4 total). At 12th level the eidolon may be fully immune to sneak attack and critical hits for 2 additonal evolution points (for a total of 6).
(Note: I know outsiders are supposed to be vulnerable to crits, but it stifles lots of good ideas. This is to enable ooze, elemental, and undead concept eidolons. What's crit immunity worth on the open market these days?)
At-will Ability (varible): An eidolon may use a spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list as an at-will spell-like ability for the spell's level + 4 evolution points. This evolution may not be selected before level 12, and the maximum spell level is (1/2 the eidolon's hit dice, rounded down) -4.
(Note: I know people are going to think this is overpowered, but it's also ridiculously expensive. If your eidolon would rather spam magic missile instead of have spell resistance or be large and have 2 extra attacks, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed to. For comparison, Bralani Azata and Babau Demons (both viable leadership'd cohorts for a level 13 character) can cast blur, charm person, gust of wind, mirror image, wind wall, darkness, dispel magic, and greater teleport (self only) all at will.)
4 pts - Mage: The eidolon gains spellcasting as 1st level sorcerer. Increase caster level (and spell list) by 1 level for each additional 2 evolution points spent, to a maximum caster level of the eidolon's hit dice - 4.
Consequently, a 5th level eidolon could cast like a 1st level sorc for 4 pts (4 left over).
An 8th level eidolon could cast like a 4th level sorc for 10 pts (1 left over).
A 11th level eidolon could cast like a 6th level sorc for 14 pts (1 left over).
A 14th level eidolon could cast like a 8th level sorc for 18 pts (1 left over).
A 17th level eidolon could cast like a 10th level sorc for 22 pts (0 pts left over. Also, its base charisma would be too low to cast 5th level spells at this point).
A 20th level eidolon could cast like a 12th level sorc for 26 pts (0 pts left over, and again, inadequate base charisma for 6th level spells).
(Note: all sorts of creatures have embedded pc class-type spellcasting. This evolution enables a heavily nerfed version; does it seem balanced?)
|
|
The idea is to make it as appealing as the size increase evolution, that gives around 6 Ev. points for the price of 3, and give ability points that stack with the ability increase.
Intelectual(2): The eidolon's charisma and inteligence scores increase by 4 points, while his strength and constitution decrease by 2 points. This evolution can be taken again at 5th level and every 4 levels after.(I would think about even reducing it's cost. something has to compete with the brute type eidolon and that overly cheap size increase)
There is already a method of increasing the ability scores of an eidelon and it's ability increase and it costs two points. This evolution is actually underpriced.
instead how about it says
intellectual (2): The eidelon substitutes his Str/Dex bonus with an Int/Cha bonus.
then if the player wants to increase it further he can pay for ability increase.
Well I'd rather that the size increases be repriced, large size should be a 4 point evolution, and huge size should be a 6-8 point evolution.
|
The idea is to make it as appealing as the size increase evolution, that gives around 6 Ev. points for the price of 3, and give ability points that stack with the ability increase.
Intelectual(2): The eidolon's charisma and inteligence scores increase by 4 points, while his strength and constitution decrease by 2 points. This evolution can be taken again at 5th level and every 4 levels after.(I would think about even reducing it's cost. something has to compete with the brute type eidolon and that overly cheap size increase)
There is already a method of increasing the ability scores of an eidelon and it's ability increase and it costs two points. This evolution is actually underpriced.
instead how about it says
intellectual (2): The eidelon substitutes his Str/Dex bonus with an Int/Cha bonus.
then if the player wants to increase it further he can pay for ability increase.
Umm... I think you are over-valuing the size evolutions. They also limit the areas that the Eidolon can effectively function. And as others have noted, AC( animal companions ) get the same bonuses for size advancement. I also don't think the stat boosting evolution is under-priced as there is a limit by level on how many times you can gain the advancement to a single stat.
Umm... I think you are over-valuing the size evolutions. They also limit the areas that the Eidolon can effectively function. And as others have noted, AC( animal companions ) get the same bonuses for size advancement. I also don't think the stat boosting evolution is under-priced as there is a limit by level on how many times you can gain the advancement to a single stat.
Actually, lets do a bit of math. Counting the actual size change as even, since the increased weapon damage comes at the cost of to hit and ac penalties, we still have...
Large size:
+8 str = 8 ep
+4 con = 4 ep
-2 dex = -2 ep
+2 nat = +1 ep
Total: 11 ep for 3 evolution pts.
Huge size:
+8 str = 8 ep
+4 con = 4 ep
-2 dex = -2 ep
+3 nat = +1.5 ep
Total: 11.5 ep for 4 evolution pts.
Those size changes are ridiculous discounts. I don't object to them, as they make sense, but there ought to be powerful options other than "Grrr, me big!".
Elite (4 pts): The eidolon gains the advanced (simple) template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 natural armor). This may only be purchased for medium or small eidolons, and only after level 12. This evolution may not be given to the summoner via the Greater Aspect class ability.
That one should really be included. Medium and small eidolons are at serious disadvantage with the current evolutions.
|
|
I also don't think the stat boosting evolution is under-priced
Good cause neither do I, I think the ability boost is priced perfectly, I was refering to his intellectual ability when I said this evolution is underpriced :P but I completely see how you read that from the poor gramatical structure I used.
I think people seriously overestimate the size thing because they think of horses. A large serpentine creature could go anywhere a PC could go, so could a large dog creature or a large humanoid. Horses don't get into dungeons because aren't as limber as other creatures, but a large creature depending on shape can go just about the same places as a medium creature, and you can also cast reduce person on your eidelon to have it go with you wherever.
|
|
Elite (4 pts): The eidolon gains the advanced (simple) template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 natural armor). This may only be purchased for medium or small eidolons, and only after level 12. This evolution may not be given to the summoner via the Greater Aspect class ability.That one should really be included. Medium and small eidolons are at serious disadvantage with the current evolutions.
Way underpriced IMO +4 to every single stat is a huge boost. I would be fine with this if it was a 8 or 10 point evolution.
Morphic (2)
Every time you take this evolution you gain 1 evolution point that may be declared when you summon your Eidelon. You may take this evolution 1 time per 4 levels.
not worth it, I think, assuming I'm reading this correctly. so you give up 2 points for the evolution to gain one evolution point, usable at the start of combat. would these effects stack, giving you 5 EVP declared at the summoning? if so, then theorectically you could give the eidolon a breath weapon doing 17d6 damage(17 being a 20th lvl eidolons HD), dismiss it getting rid of said breath weapon, call it back and give it the same breath weapon; this technically bypasses the 1/day thing since the breath weapon evolution is temporary and not an inherent evolution
explain
Except you can only summon it once per day. So yes, Morphic 5 would potentially let you use two breath weapons in one day, more than a minute apart... But that's about it.
I actually really like this Morphic idea... But I think it needs to be changed...
Morphic 2
Every time you take this evolution you gain 1 evolution point in a special "Morphic pool.". Your Eidolon may reassign these evolution points to any Evolution as a Full Round action, with the following exceptions.
-Morphic points may not be used on evolutions with a Daily limit.
-Morphic points may not be spent on Skilled, Resistance, or Immunity. (Maybe some others, too.)
Your Morphic Pool may not exceed 1/4 your Summoner level.
Way underpriced IMO +4 to every single stat is a huge boost. I would be fine with this if it was a 8 or 10 point evolution.Elite (4 pts): The eidolon gains the advanced (simple) template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 natural armor). This may only be purchased for medium or small eidolons, and only after level 12. This evolution may not be given to the summoner via the Greater Aspect class ability.That one should really be included. Medium and small eidolons are at serious disadvantage with the current evolutions.
The thing is, the size boosts individually bump the essential stat for melee combat by +8. The best this elite evolution does is grant a +4 to a variety of bonuses. Melee critters have no reason not to pile on the points in size bonuses. The little guys really need some love, for the sake of diversity in eidolons.
The thing is, the size boosts individually bump the essential stat for melee combat by +8.
And:
-Damage dice
-CMB/CMD
-Reach (!)
-Allows all kinds of nasty stuff: swallow, trample, grab...
|
|
The thing is, the size boosts individually bump the essential stat for melee combat by +8. The best this elite evolution does is grant a +4 to a variety of bonuses. Melee critters have no reason not to pile on the points in size bonuses. The little guys really need some love, for the sake of diversity in eidolons.Way underpriced IMO +4 to every single stat is a huge boost. I would be fine with this if it was a 8 or 10 point evolution.Elite (4 pts): The eidolon gains the advanced (simple) template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 natural armor). This may only be purchased for medium or small eidolons, and only after level 12. This evolution may not be given to the summoner via the Greater Aspect class ability.That one should really be included. Medium and small eidolons are at serious disadvantage with the current evolutions.
Which is exactly why I have been saying that the size increases need to be repriced.
Which is exactly why I have been saying that the size increases need to be repriced.
See, I think the size increases are probably okay where they are, even being a huge discount. If the eidolon needs to spend all its points just getting to huge size, it just wont be powerful enough to do duty as a summoner's better half.
Assuming they fix the issues plaguing the attack evolutions (8-10 4d6+str/19-20 claw attacks anyone?) the size isn't a problem. There just needs to be an evolution that permits use of the more interesting *other* eidolon abilities, like SLAs, poison, and frightful presence.
So, while I see exactly why Jason did it, I can't help but be bothered by the very *particular* set of acceptable equipment for eidolons. I feel that if you're going to prohibit any particular sorts of gear, you really ought to just get rid of all of them. Here's a thought:
Eidolons and equipment: The spells used to call eidolons interfere with conventional magic items; for this reason, eidolons may wear such equipment as their form permits, but gain no supernatural benefit for doing so. Any item they wear or use functions as a completely nonmagical version of the same item.
This permits eidolons to wear armor, but such benefits max out at +9 for plate, +2 for shields, and the eidolon must still have appropriate feats for either.
Then, to compensate for the fact that they're going to be behind the curve for saves (no cloak of resistance) and magical attacks (no amulet of mighty fists, no magic swords), you improve some of the evolutions to suit:
Resistance Aura (2 pts): The eidolon has an aura of magical toughness, granting it a +1 resistance bonus to all saves. This bonus increases by +1 at level 4, and every 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at level 16)
Imbued Claw (1 pt): The eidolon is able to imbue a single natural weapon with magical potence. That weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 at 8th level, and each 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at level 20). Instead of enhancement bonuses, an eidolon may choose to select other options from the magic weapon attribute list of equivalent value (for instance, at level 12, an eidolon could have a Keen Flaming +1 bite attack in lieu of a +3 bite attack). The eidolon must be level 4 or higher to select this evolution, but may select it as many times as it likes, applying it to a different natural attack each time.
Imbued Blade (2 pts): The eidolon channels magical power into a weapon it wields. Whenever it wields a single manufactured weapon, it replaces any other magical features with a +1 bonus to attack and damage. This bonus increases by +1 at level 8, and every 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at level 20) Instead of enhancement bonuses, an eidolon may choose to select other options from the magic weapon attribute list of equivalent value, but these attributes are fixed no matter what weapon the eidolon wields (if they select +1 and flaming, all weapons become +1 and flaming).
An eidolon may take this evolution more than once, in order to apply it to multiple held weapons. An eidolon must be level 4 or higher to select this evolution.
Am I missing any other vital stuff? I know Jason left the head slot open for headbands of charisma, but I feel like it'd be far better to just include an evolution like ones we've already listed for improving mental stats.
|
|
Which is exactly why I have been saying that the size increases need to be repriced.See, I think the size increases are probably okay where they are, even being a huge discount. If the eidolon needs to spend all its points just getting to huge size, it just wont be powerful enough to do duty as a summoner's better half.
Assuming they fix the issues plaguing the attack evolutions (8-10 4d6+str/19-20 claw attacks anyone?) the size isn't a problem. There just needs to be an evolution that permits use of the more interesting *other* eidolon abilities, like SLAs, poison, and frightful presence.
That's not true to get to huge size is 7 points, they still have plenty of points to distribute and have a Str in the 30s with a CMB and attack high enough that they won't miss and won't fail CMs. And still have plenty of points to distribute, You have huge size at level 11, that's where you have 15 points. for which means you have 8 more points. just using the base quadraped eidelon form and putting the rest of your point into tentacles. You'll have a Str 30 dealing
That's a bite at +21 dealing 2d6+10 and 8 tentacles at +19 dealing 1d8+5.
You're not likely to miss with a single attack, and that's without buying anything but tentacles and size increases.
I'd be fine with large size costing 4 points and huge size costing 6 points, that would be 10 points to get to huge size leaving you with 5 points to buy evolutions.
I also think there needs to be a limit on the # of tentacle attacks you can buy, or at least a cost increase.
That's not true to get to huge size is 7 points, they still have plenty of points to distribute and have a Str in the 30s with a CMB and attack high enough that they won't miss and won't fail CMs. And still have plenty of points to distribute, You have huge size at level 11, that's where you have 15 points. for which means you have 8 more points. just using the base quadraped eidelon form and putting the rest of your point into tentacles. You'll have a Str 30 dealing
That's a bite at +21 dealing 2d6+10 and 8 tentacles at +19 dealing 1d8+5.
You're not likely to miss with a single attack, and that's without buying anything but tentacles and size increases.
I'd be fine with large size costing 4 points and huge size costing 6 points, that would be 10 points to get to huge size leaving you with 5 points to buy evolutions.
I also think there needs to be a limit on the # of tentacle attacks you can buy, or at least a cost increase.
You missed my point entirely. I was saying that dramatically increasing the cost of the large and huge evolutions, like to what they're effectively worth in evolution points (together more than 20) would be bad. A small bump like you mention here is a different matter.
That said, I do think you're splitting hairs on the wrong animal. An extra point here or there isn't going to fix eidolon issues nearly as well as reining in certain broken attack evolutions would. Tentacles and claws are the primary villains here, not the size evolutions.
Me, I'd vote for cutting the limbs evolution as it stands in favor of
Extremity (1 pt): The eidolon has an extremity - an arm, leg, tentacle, tail, head, or other extremity. None of these features have any innate ability to attack. Attacks must be purchased separately for each extremity.
Then you buy bite, claw, slam, lash, sting, slap, or weapon proficiencies as appropriate.
Or for people who don't like things writ in abstract fashion:
Arm (1pt): The eidolon has an arm (with grasping appendage, like a hand). It has the manual dexterity of a human's hand and arm, but no innate ability to attack.
Leg (1 pt): The eidolon has a leg. Each time you select this evolution, the eidolon's base speed increases by 5ft. This appendage has no innate ability to attack.
Head (1 pt): The eidolon has a head. This allows the creature to see, hear, and speak conventionally. Each additional head beyond the first confers a +2 bonus on perception checks. This appendage has a mouth, but no innate ability to attack.
Tentacle (1 pt): The eidolon has a tentacle. Each tentacle grants the eidolon a +1 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to grapple. This appendage has moderate dexterity, but no innate ability to attack.
Tail (1 pt): The eidolon has a tail. This confers a +2 bonus on acrobatics checks, but has no innate ability to attack.
Then you specify that you can only use a limb for 1 form of attack at a time, and give a list of possible attacks:
Claw (1 pt): The eidolon has a claw at the end of an arm, leg, or tentacle. This permits an attack that deals d4 damage (d6 if large, d8 if huge). This evolution must be attached to an arm, leg, or tentacle.
Bite (1 pt): The eidolon has a bite attack that deals d6 damage (d8 if large, 2d6 if huge). This may only be selected for a head. For an additional point, the attack deals 1 1/2 strength damage.
Slam (2 pts): The eidolon has a slam attack that deals d8 damage (2d6 if large, 2d8 if huge). This may only be selected for an arm.
Tail Slap (1 pt): The eidolon gains a slap attack that deals d6 damage (d8 if large, 2d6 if huge). This is a secondary attack that may only be selected for a tail or tentacle.
You get the idea.
Using this scheme, you'd have to increase the initial point values of the eidolon builds:
Quadruped gets: legs x 4, head x 1, bite x 1
Biped gets: legs x 2, arms x 2, head x 1, claws x 2
Serpentine gets: head x 1, bite x 1, tail x 1, tail slap x 1, climb
To make them even at 7 pts apiece, quadruped would need 1 additional point (possibly to increase bite to 1 1/2 str damage), and serpentine would need 2 points (enhanced bite, or perhaps just +2 to an ability score).
Anyhow, the real point here is that there's no way to get an attack for less than 2 pts apiece.
I posted in another thread, but I'll repost it here, slightly rewritten for brevity.
----------------------
I would prefer if the eidelon's evolutions were more abstracted, not less.
Limb : 1 pt
The eidelon gains a limb. Based on the type of limb, it gains other advantages, as specified below.
Tail : +2 to all Acrobatics for Balance
Tentacle : 5" of reach with that limb (10" at large, or 15" at huge)
Arm : The eidelon gains a grasping appendage (a hand)
Leg : The eidelon gains + 5" of base movement.
Attack : 1 pt
The eidelon gains an attack, which costs 1 point. This attack can be defined however the summoner chooses, with the restrictions listed below. If defined as a physical weapon, such as a dagger, then the weapon can be sheathed when not being used. If the eidelon is disarmed, the weapon vanishes and reforms one round later in it's sheath.
Weak Attack : The Eidelon gains 2 weak attacks, examples of these would be claws, daggers, spines, stings, wing buffets, or small horns. Both do 1d4 damage and are either primary or secondary, depending on how they are defined. The attack must be associated with an appropriate limb, as shown below.
Attack : The Eidelon gains 2 normal attacks, examples of these would be a bite, pincers or shortswords. Both do 1d6 damage and are either primary or secondary, depending on how they are defined. The attack must be associated with an appropriate limb, as shown below.
Strong Attack : The Eidelon gains 1 strong attack, examples of these would be a slam, a greatsword, or a greataxe. This attack does 1d8 damage, and is either primary or secondary, depending on how it is defined. The attack must be associated with an appropriate pair of limbs or a tail, as shown below.
Limb Association :
Manufactured Weapon : Arm
Claw : Arm or Leg
Sting : Tail or Tentacle
Spine : Any
Horn : Head
Bite : Head
Pincer : Arm
Slam : Pair of Arms, Pair of Tentacles, Tail
Wing Buffet : Wing
Energy Attack 1 pt or 2 pts
The Eidelon may add 1d6 of energy damage to any one type of attack it has spent evolution points on (claws, bite, sting, slam, etc). If applied to manufactured weapons, it may apply to only manufactured weapons of the same type (IE: Weak attacks, strong, normal). For 2 pts, the eidelon may apply the energy to all it's attacks. The summoner must be level 5 before choosing this evolution.
Attack Enhancements 1 pt
The eidelon may purchase a +1 enhancement bonus on any one attack it has spent evolution points on. This evolution may be purchased multiple times. It can stack, up to a maximum of 10 times (resulting in a maximum +10). An Eidelon may not select this evolution more than once per 2 levels it has per attack. In lieu of a +1 to hit and damage with the attack, the eidelon may, instead, add a weapon enhancement of equal bonus. For example, a 4th level Eidelon could have a +1 keen Longsword attack, or a +2 longsword, or a +1 flaming claw attack, for two points. A Summoner must be 3rd level to select this evolution.
Armor Enhancements 1 pt
The eidelon may purchase a +1 enhancement bonus on it's natural armor. This evolution may be purchased multiple times. It can stack, up to a maximum of 10 times (resulting in a maximum +10). An Eidelon may not select this evolution more than once per 2 levels it has. In lieu of a +1 enhancement to AC, the eidelon may, instead, add an armor enhancement of equal bonus. For example, a 4th level Eidelon could have a +1 fortification NA, or a +2 NA, for two points. A Summoner must be 3rd level to select this evolution.
By moving the armor and weapon bonus's into evolutions, we can rule that an eidelon can't use magical equipment because it's body interferes with the magic, but can duplicate the abilities for evolution points.
This is all kind of moot, of course, but it would be a nice to have.
Attack : 1 pt
The eidelon gains an attack, which costs 1 point. This attack can be defined however the summoner chooses, with the restrictions listed below. If defined as a physical weapon, such as a dagger, then the weapon can be sheathed when not being used. If the eidelon is disarmed, the weapon vanishes and reforms one round later in it's sheath.Weak Attack : The Eidelon gains 2 weak attacks, examples of these would be claws, daggers, spines, stings, wing buffets, or small horns. Both do 1d4 damage and are either primary or secondary, depending on how they are defined. The attack must be associated with an appropriate limb, as shown below.
Attack : The Eidelon gains 2 normal attacks, examples of these would be a bite, pincers or shortswords. Both do 1d6 damage and are either primary or secondary, depending on how they are defined. The attack must be associated with an appropriate limb, as shown below.
Strong Attack : The Eidelon gains 1 strong attack, examples of these would be a slam, a greatsword, or a greataxe. This attack does 1d8 damage, and is either primary or secondary, depending on how it is defined. The attack must be associated with an appropriate pair of limbs or a tail, as shown below.
You already know I agree with you on the point about disabling magic entirely. We're also evidently on the same page as far as limbs go. Where your concept goes awry is with your attacks, because you're not simplifying things, you're *adding* complexity with your options for secondary/primary attacks, restricted limbs, and other judgment-call abstractions. Never mind you're still letting people accumulate the crazy number of attacks sample eidolons end up with...
Weak - normal - strong is a fine attack progression, but if you're doing it, make it completely simple:
Weak Attack (1 pt): One of the eidolon's limbs is associated with a weak attack of some sort, such as a claw, dagger, or fist. It deals d4 damage (or d6 if large, d8 if huge).
Average Attack (2 pts): One of the eidolon's limbs is associated with a normal attack of some sort, such as a bite, pincer, or longsword. It deals d8 damage (or d10 if large, 2d6 if huge).
Powerful Attack (3 pts): One of the eidolon's limbs is associated with a powerful attack of some sort, such as a sting, slam or greatsword. It deals 2d6 damage (or 2d8 if large, 3d6 if huge).
Heavy Blow (1 pt): Choose one attack. Your eidolon's attack is especially dangerous, dealing 1 1/2 its str modifier to damage rolls with that attack.
Then you get rid of the Increased Damage evolution, because you've embedded that expense in the attacks themselves. You also do away with the primary/secondary attack distinctions because, well, they complicate things.
Or if you must have primary/secondary attacks, make everything a secondary attack by default, and require another evolution point to upgrade to primary.
Actually, that was written to try to stay within the existing point scale. Which is why it's so convoluted. It's not my favorite answer, but it does match the existing point system while giving better variety.
Honestly, I think I'd limit the number of attacks based on points. No more than half of the evolution points at any level can be spent on attacks. That should, I think, take care of most of the 'uber attack' issues. At 20th level, you'd have up to 13pts in attacks (including things like energy and so forth).
Actually, that was written to try to stay within the existing point scale. Which is why it's so convoluted. It's not my favorite answer, but it does match the existing point system while giving better variety.
Honestly, I think I'd limit the number of attacks based on points. No more than half of the evolution points at any level can be spent on attacks. That should, I think, take care of most of the 'uber attack' issues. At 20th level, you'd have up to 13pts in attacks (including things like energy and so forth).
Yuck. You realize the real monsters go for like 5x claws (5 pts, 10 attacks) + improved damage (1 pt) + elemental attacks (2pts) + pounce (1 pt) = 9 points. That's all there is to the actual *attacks* they get - the rest comes from size, or feats, or other nonsense. Point cap might be the way to go, but the attacks need to be better balanced before that will work.
I would like to see an evolution that lets you add multiple heads for hydra or cerberous types
Yuck. You realize the real monsters go for like 5x claws (5 pts, 10 attacks) + improved damage (1 pt) + elemental attacks (2pts) + pounce (1 pt) = 9 points. That's all there is to the actual *attacks* they get - the rest comes from size, or feats, or other nonsense. Point cap might be the way to go, but the attacks need to be better balanced before that will work.Actually, that was written to try to stay within the existing point scale. Which is why it's so convoluted. It's not my favorite answer, but it does match the existing point system while giving better variety.
Honestly, I think I'd limit the number of attacks based on points. No more than half of the evolution points at any level can be spent on attacks. That should, I think, take care of most of the 'uber attack' issues. At 20th level, you'd have up to 13pts in attacks (including things like energy and so forth).
You realize, of course, your points are off?
Assume quadruped or biped form :
2x Claws (Free)
4x legs (free)
4x Claws (4 pts)
4x Limbs (4 pts) (Got to have limbs to put the claws on)
Improved Damage (1pt)
Elemental Attacks (2pts)
Pounce (1 pt)
Total : 12 pts.
Limiting it to 1/2 evo pts means you couldn't do that until 19th level
And actually, the monsters I've seen were :
Tentacles x 10 (10 pts) (1d4 each)
Imp Dmg (1 pt) (1d6 each tentacle)
Elemental Attacks (2pts) (+1d6 each tentacle)
Pounce (1 pt)
Which would be 14, and not doable at 20 with a cap of 1/2. You'd get 9 tentacles at most.
Honestly, I think a cap of 1/2 evo pts, round down, on attacks and attack powers works pretty well.
I do think that limbs should be added one at a time, not two at a time like the current system does. You can't have a 3 armed or legged creature as it stands if I understand the rules correctly right now.
You are correct, unless that third limb is a tentacle. I too would prefer limbs be 1 pt for 1 limb, rather than 2 pts for 2 limbs.
I'm also not fond of the 'You can switch out your claws for pincers, but you still pay one point'. Why? If I'm going to do that, I'll keep the claws and the pincers. I can envision an eidelon with retractable claws in it's pincers, use whichever one it wants. Same with slam (imagine a Wolverine type Eidelon, retractable claws, but it can grab both it's hands together and slam you over the head). Both attacks on one set of arms.
Honestly, the biggest thing I see wrong with the Eidelon, as is, is that it's going to require a lot of GM adjustment. It hasn't quite hit that sweet spot of 'configurable' vs 'structured'. It's a bit to structured in some ways, and too configurable in others. It's a hard balance to get, don't get me wrong, I think Jason and his team did a wonderful job of taking a stab at it for a first attempt. But the evolutions need some work, there's a lot of duplication of attacks vs power at the 1 pt level, and some of those attack options are subpar vs others of the same point cost.
Some new Ideas:
Shape Weapon (2): The eidolon can, as a free action create weapon wich he's proficient with. The created weapon has an equivalent bonus of +1 per 3 HD the eidolon has, and can be thrown, disappearing after hitting or missing the target(or not, if it's a returning weapon). The eidolon can only have one shaped weapon active at a time. Bow or similar weapons created with this evolution automatically create ammunition.
Dual shaping (1): Pre-req: shape weapon. The Eidolon can shape two weapons at a time. The second weapon has an equivalent enhancement one point lower than the first.
Shape arsenal (2): Pre-req: dual shaping. The Eidolon can create an unlimited number of weapons, as long as he can wield or throw them. The created weapons decrease their enhancement bonus by 1 for each beyond the second. non-magical weapons created are considered masterwork.
Shape Armor (1): The eidolon creates an armor that he's proficient with as a free action. The armor has an equivalent enhancement bonus of +1 plus 1 for every 3 HD the eidolon has. Since the armor and the eidolon are basically one being, the base armor bonus does not stack with the eidolon's natural armor. The enhancement, does. this evolution may only be selected by medium eidolons. Large and large eidolons may select it by paying 2 and 4 evolution point respectively.
Angelic eidolon (3): The eidolon Receive the celestial creature template.
Attuned (1): the eidolon receives a +4 bonus on saves from being banished.
Natural Eidolon (2): The eidolon has wild empathy equal to it's HD. Additionally, the eidolon is able to communicate with any non hostile animal.
Improved breath weapon(2): pre-req: breath weapon. the eidolon may use he's breath weapon unlimited times/day. He must wait 1d4 round between uses.
Keeper (1): The eidolon may store up to 2 cubic feet/ HD with it in it's planar home. The eidolon may retrieve or store items this way with a full round action.
Magical Artisan (1): The eidolon may continue the work on magical items started by the summoner. The summoner still has roll his own tests.
Independent (1): the eidolon may go as far as he wants from the summoner, and can stay in the plane if the summoner dies. An eidolon with this ability mostly will try to avenge the dead summoner or restore him to life by any means.
Furious (2): When reduced to half or less of its hit points or when the summoner is reduced to half of his own, the eidolon becomes furious and gains a +2 bonus on attacks an damage. When in this state the eidolon will not stop fighting until he or the enemy is dead.
Vision of the planes (1): The eidolon may see creatures and objects on the ethereal plane in a 60ft radius.
Twin Eidolons (4): The eidolon divides in 2 that must have the same base form. Split the evolution points between the 2.
Share minds (4): the eidolon's base mental scores (int,wis,cha) increase(or decrease) to match the summoner's (without considering magic items). Additionally, the eidolon's and the summoner relation improves granting a +1bonus on any aid another action between the two.
Immortal (3): The eidolon becomes immune to death and energy drain effects.
Telepath (2): the eidolon may speak telepathically with any creature that has a language. Also, the eidolon may use language-dependant spells on any creature that has a language, even if he doesn't knows it.
Charge attack (2): the eidolon can, as a standart action charge a weapon or a natural weapon with pure energy. The next attack the eidolon makes with the selected weapon deals an extra 1d6/HD points of force damage. this ability may be used 3 times/day.
Detector (3): The eidolon can concentrate for a full round to locate powerful auras (alignment, undead, magic..). This requires no action to identify auras within sight. The eidolon is unable to discern the type of the aura, only it's strength and location.
Harmless (2): The eidolon is under constant effect of a sanctuary spell (DC = HD/2+cha). this effect is interrupted if the eidolon attacks an affected creature. Only small eidolons may select this evolution.
Spell sharer (1) : the eidolon may concentrate instead of the summoner to maintain spells.
You realize, of course, your points are off?
Assume quadruped or biped form :
2x Claws (Free)
4x legs (free)
4x Claws (4 pts)
4x Limbs (4 pts) (Got to have limbs to put the claws on)
Improved Damage (1pt)
Elemental Attacks (2pts)
Pounce (1 pt)Total : 12 pts.
Limiting it to 1/2 evo pts means you couldn't do that until 19th level
And actually, the monsters I've seen were :
Tentacles x 10 (10 pts) (1d4 each)
Imp Dmg (1 pt) (1d6 each tentacle)
Elemental Attacks (2pts) (+1d6 each tentacle)
Pounce (1 pt)Which would be 14, and not doable at 20 with a cap of 1/2. You'd get 9 tentacles at most.
Honestly, I think a cap of 1/2 evo pts, round down, on attacks and attack powers works pretty well.
My math was fine. If you're going to posit point limits for attacks, you'll have to clarify such things as "attacks *and* limbs that attacks come from". The reason I didn't assume that was your intent is because it puts arbitrary limits on number of limbs. Alone, a leg is completely harmless, and there's no reason to put a cap on how many a creature can have.
Your own math is correct but weird - there is no 'limbs' evolution as of yet. Pouncing claw beast (which must be quadrupedal, incidentally) goes like:
2 limbs (legs) free
+2 limbs (legs) - 4 pts
+4 claws (8x claws on legs) - 4 pts
+elemental attack - 2 pts
+improved damage - 1 pt
+pounce - 1 pt
12 points
Half points on that sort of thing is an okay solution, but it's messy and it shorts completely acceptible, wacky builds, like a tiger with a poison stinger, or an octopus with a breath weapon and swallow whole.
At any rate, we can all agree the tentacle evolution is too potent, especially when you get multiattack for free.
My math was fine. If you're going to posit point limits for attacks, you'll have to clarify such things as "attacks *and* limbs that attacks come from". The reason I didn't assume that was your intent is because it puts arbitrary limits on number of limbs. Alone, a leg is completely harmless, and there's no reason to put a cap on how many a creature can have.Your own math is correct but weird - there is no 'limbs' evolution as of yet. Pouncing claw beast (which must be quadrupedal, incidentally) goes like:
2 limbs (legs) free
+2 limbs (legs) - 4 pts
+4 claws (8x claws on legs) - 4 pts
+elemental attack - 2 pts
+improved damage - 1 pt
+pounce - 1 pt12 points
Half points on that sort of thing is an okay solution, but it's messy and it shorts completely acceptible, wacky builds, like a tiger with a poison stinger, or an octopus with a breath weapon and swallow whole.
At any rate, we can all agree the tentacle evolution is too potent, especially when you get multiattack for free.
I'll give you I mistakenly added in limbs as an attack, that should have been counted as a non-attack.
However, you are wrong about limbs not being an evolution. It's a two point evolution, right there in the class description.
Some new Ideas:
...
Good grief, slow down there friend...
Man, I'm just going to have to respond to these in groups:
Shape Weapon, Dual Shaping, Shape Arsenal: All seem pretty good, although the 'form weapon for free' thing is a bit strange for an ability that lots of eidolons will take. I might go for a more conventional "is summoned carrying x weapon". I'd also stipulate minimum level of 3 or 4.
Shape Armor: perhaps a bit too complex, w/r/t templating. Easier to say "gains enhancement bonus to natural armor equal to 1/3 HD", since eidolon natural armor is almost always going to be a higher bonus than armor they could materialize. That said, I rather like the idea - should probably cost 2 points across the board, though.
Attuned, Natural Eidolon, Keeper, Detector, Magical Artisan, Immortal, Telepath, Vision of the Planes, Spell Sharer: All seem pretty harmless and flavorful, if perhaps overly cheap in some cases. Some of them definitely want some pretty significant level minimums; you're basically looking at a lot of permanent spell-like abilities.
Harmless: Quite cute; you should probably institute some pretty significant limits on how long the effect takes to reassert itself after the eidolon takes some aggressive action. Permanent Sanctuary effect can be pretty darn potent, so I'd bump it to 3 pts and perhaps a minimum level of 5.
Independent: You should probably cap the range on this one, or make unlimited range a second-tier upgrade. Initial one should be something like 1000 ft w/o penalty for 2 pts, with upgrade to unlimited range for another 2 at level 12.
Furious: Retemplate this like the Rage ability in the wolverine entry in the Bestiary.
Share Minds: Another good solution for getting an eidolon's mental stats up a bit higher. Could be simpler, but this does have some flavor going for it as well.
Twin Eidolons: Too powerful and too abstract. Spend some text clarifying how this works, or people will run away with it.
Charge Attack: Put some limits on this thing. Can my eidolon charge up its bite pre-combat, hold charge for an hour, the run in and chomp 'til it hits for bite damage + 12d6?
Celestial Eidolon: Plainly too powerful. Why would someone ever spend 5 evolution points for DR 10/x when they could get a celestial creature with inherent DR 10/good for 3, never mind the SR and energy resistance.
I'll give you I mistakenly added in limbs as an attack, that should have been counted as a non-attack.
However, you are wrong about limbs not being an evolution. It's a two point evolution, right there in the class description.
Ah, sorry, you phrased it oddly. You specified 'legs' in the freebies, then added 4x limbs later on, as though there was some different 1-pt evolution you were referring to.
Ah, sorry, you phrased it oddly. You specified 'legs' in the freebies, then added 4x limbs later on, as though there was some different 1-pt evolution you were referring to.I'll give you I mistakenly added in limbs as an attack, that should have been counted as a non-attack.
However, you are wrong about limbs not being an evolution. It's a two point evolution, right there in the class description.
Ah, ok, I can understand that then. But if you read the Limbs evolution (2pt evolution btw), it says 'Pick either arms or legs'. If you pick legs, you get 10 feet of movement, if you pick arms, you get arms with graspable appendages. So, if you wanted to turn a quadraped into a centaur at first level, you'd have :
Limbs (Legs) : Free
Limbs (Legs) : Free
Limbs (Arms) : 2 pts
With the same build you could also turn a quadraped into a 'horse and rider' in platemail (special effect for natural armor). A mounted man on a horse. The problem is that with the current evolutions, you can't, technically, give him a 'lance' or 'sword' to attack with.
With the same build you could also turn a quadraped into a 'horse and rider' in platemail (special effect for natural armor). A mounted man on a horse. The problem is that with the current evolutions, you can't, technically, give him a 'lance' or 'sword' to attack with.
Yes you can. Even with the update, an eidolon with arms is still allowed to wield weapons, and for two evo points, it gains proficiency with all martial weapons.
Yes you can. Even with the update, an eidolon with arms is still allowed to wield weapons, and for two evo points, it gains proficiency with all martial weapons.With the same build you could also turn a quadraped into a 'horse and rider' in platemail (special effect for natural armor). A mounted man on a horse. The problem is that with the current evolutions, you can't, technically, give him a 'lance' or 'sword' to attack with.
True, sorry, I guess I should have said : You can't give him his own weapons. Since he drops them if he is dimissed/killed. :( I much prefer the eidelon be able to manifest his own weapons rather than have to carry his stuff around, just doesn't sit right with me flavor wise. *shrug*
True, sorry, I guess I should have said : You can't give him his own weapons. Since he drops them if he is dimissed/killed. :( I much prefer the eidelon be able to manifest his own weapons rather than have to carry his stuff around, just doesn't sit right with me flavor wise. *shrug*
I think that's more of an issue with the ruling that items get left behind if dismissed/killed. I'm still not sure why that is there, especially since the armor 'issue' being addressed. I'm hoping neither one of those rules stays in play.
Maybe this would look better as a base form.
Mortal form (1): The eidolon has humanoid form. It gains only half of the listed natural armor bonus and subsequent bonus from evolutions, and loses any natural attack it has. The eidolon automatically gains simple weapon proficiency evolution and light armor evolution. The eidolon may use, take, and bring weapons and equipped items from it's plane. Mortal eidolons gain a base Int score of 10 and a base Cha score of 12.
(selectable by biped eidolons)
this one can be interesting to play (again joining eidolon and summoner).
Power of union(2): By taking a great risk, the summoner can join forces with its companion. When this evolution is activated the eidolon and the summoner fuse together granting the eidolon a +1 morale bonus to attacks, damage, and saves. while this ability is active, damage applied to the eidolon is also applied to the summoner. the fusion ends if any of them reaches 0 or less hit points. While in this state, the summoner can only communicate with the eidolon. While fused, the eidolon can make use of any skill ranks, proficiencies, and feats the summoner has.
If the eidolon dies or is banished while in this state, the summoner takes 4d6 points of damage and recieves a -2 morale penalty on all checks until the eidolon can be summoned again.
If the summoner dies while fused, the eidolon becomes free to walk on the material plane (this is the origin of many strange free creatures).
By spending 1 extra point this evolution can be upgraded, increasing the bonus by +1. The improvement can be bought at 6th level and every 6 level after.