So in a playtest I killed his eidolon, not to mention his fighter and druid friends. Well, the fighter and druid got raised. The eidolon couldn't be, so the summoner whined and moaned for the next 5 encounters in the day.
Summoner as a class is growing on me, we had some issues but the things that really were problematic we fixed at table and are already being discussed to very long length in other threads.
The issue I'd like to report with a possible solution is the dead eidolon. While I think it should be a set back when the eidolon dies, I'm not sure it should be more of a set back than when the fighter dies. I can see why one could want it to be more a set back to counter balance the free raise he'll get if he waits a day, but for fun gaming it doesn't feel right leaving him so out of the game for rest of session. And while he was arguably just as good as the rest of his party without his eidolon due to spending his time casting party spell buffs, he wanted his pet back.
Talking with my player, we came to idea of using the Planar Binding spells as a sort of raise dead for the day. Ignoring what the spell actually does as far as bargaining and trapping, just using it to call back the eidolon, 10 minute cast time, a material component comparable to raise dead/resurrection, gives it similar use. If more mechanic needed, different bindings could work better for recalling the eidolon to this plane, with a gate spell working more like true resurrection.
So in a playtest I killed his eidolon, not to mention his fighter and druid friends. Well, the fighter and druid got raised. The eidolon couldn't be, so the summoner whined and moaned for the next 5 encounters in the day.
Summoner as a class is growing on me, we had some issues but the things that really were problematic we fixed at table and are already being discussed to very long length in other threads.
The issue I'd like to report with a possible solution is the dead eidolon. While I think it should be a set back when the eidolon dies, I'm not sure it should be more of a set back than when the fighter dies. I can see why one could want it to be more a set back to counter balance the free raise he'll get if he waits a day, but for fun gaming it doesn't feel right leaving him so out of the game for rest of session. And while he was arguably just as good as the rest of his party without his eidolon due to spending his time casting party spell buffs, he wanted his pet back.
Talking with my player, we came to idea of using the Planar Binding spells as a sort of raise dead for the day. Ignoring what the spell actually does as far as bargaining and trapping, just using it to call back the eidolon, 10 minute cast time, a material component comparable to raise dead/resurrection, gives it similar use. If more mechanic needed, different bindings could work better for recalling the eidolon to this plane, with a gate spell working more like true resurrection.
I think you may have some balance issues here, the eidolon already has a free raised dead every day. Your player made the mistake of using it on a daily basis. I would encourage people not to re-summon and dismiss their eidolon all the time. Instead it should be saved for when the eidolon is in dire straights HP wise including death, and keep him around all the time otherwise.
Not to mention, I think while a setback, he is far from useless. The fighter and druid can benefit just as much from the summoners buffs as the eidolon did, not to mention the summon monster SLA's which everyone is raving about. Also, you have 6 encounters a day? I would hate to be a low level spellcaster in your game :P.
So in a playtest I killed his eidolon, not to mention his fighter and druid friends. Well, the fighter and druid got raised. The eidolon couldn't be, so the summoner whined and moaned for the next 5 encounters in the day.
Summoner as a class is growing on me, we had some issues but the things that really were problematic we fixed at table and are already being discussed to very long length in other threads.
The issue I'd like to report with a possible solution is the dead eidolon. While I think it should be a set back when the eidolon dies, I'm not sure it should be more of a set back than when the fighter dies. I can see why one could want it to be more a set back to counter balance the free raise he'll get if he waits a day, but for fun gaming it doesn't feel right leaving him so out of the game for rest of session. And while he was arguably just as good as the rest of his party without his eidolon due to spending his time casting party spell buffs, he wanted his pet back.
Talking with my player, we came to idea of using the Planar Binding spells as a sort of raise dead for the day. Ignoring what the spell actually does as far as bargaining and trapping, just using it to call back the eidolon, 10 minute cast time, a material component comparable to raise dead/resurrection, gives it similar use. If more mechanic needed, different bindings could work better for recalling the eidolon to this plane, with a gate spell working more like true resurrection.
Had he already used his 1 free resummon for the day? Since there is no duration on the summoned creature wasnt it assumed he was already pre-summoned? If it died again on or after the second encounter, then he can just survive off his summons and spells for the rest of the day I would imagine. At the moment I'm not really seeing a need for a raise dead equivalent spell for a summoner.
One small note, do remember that the Eidolon cannot be resummoned the same day that it "dies" from hit point damage.
you are right, i missed that part. So yes a summoner is going to be without his pet for a day if he lets it die. It doesnt seem worse off then anyone else dieing though. Does the cleric normally carry around 5000 diamonds and prepare raise dead in this game? Usually a near party wipe like that puts the adventure on hold for a day anyway.
One small note, do remember that the Eidolon cannot be resummoned the same day that it "dies" from hit point damage.
True, had forgotten that aspect of it, if the eidolon truly died, then I guess it's gone for the day, however I'd hold by the fact that he still has a number of spells and summons at his disposal.
Eidolons don't get a free "Raise Dead" every day. If the Eidolon actually gets killed it can't be raised until the next day.
Essentially summoners can dismiss their Eidolon when it's "Mostly Dead" then take a full minute to re-boot it. Kind of splitting hairs but it can make a difference.
As for the original post, the solution is simple, don't get your eidolon killed. Also, hopefully don't let it get dismissed. The class is plenty powerful even with these weaknesses.
So yes a summoner is going to be without his pet for a day if he lets it die. It doesnt seem worse off then anyone else dieing though. Does the cleric normally carry around 5000 diamonds and prepare raise dead in this game? Usually a near party wipe like that puts the adventure on hold for a day anyway.
They had in total, three scrolls of raise dead and 2 breaths of life prepared. I know it's a bit much, but play group is used to more high risk, high reward ventures.
As far as responses of don't let it die, the eidolon had best AC in the party, it not dying just means someone else dies faster. Same could be said to any other class, most classes are fairly ineffective dead, so they should avoid death.
I said in original post that I personally thought he was quite effective without his eidolon. Being the only one who could cast haste honestly made him the biggest damage dealer in the party. However, the player wanted his pet. Sure he could do other things, but that's not what he made his character to do.
Thanks to all for feed back, everyone ahs different play style, and that's why there are house rules.
jason has already said there is going to be a spell that allows you to change the evolution points around, that is unique to the summoner. why couldn't there be a spell that lets you summon back the eidolon, that is unique to the summoner. make it the same level as raise dead, or higher and maybe half the cost, the summoner is going to take up one of his known slots with it.. something silly considering dismissing the eidolon is a free action i think (i'll have to look it up). he then could summon it after the fight is over, provided he didn't summon it already that day.
I said in original post that I personally thought he was quite effective without his eidolon. Being the only one who could cast haste honestly made him the biggest damage dealer in the party. However, the player wanted his pet. Sure he could do other things, but that's not what he made his character to do.
Thanks to all for feed back, everyone ahs different play style, and that's why there are house rules.
The downside to the Eidolon dying is small -> wait a few hours and re-summon. Compare this to raising dead where you have a substancial money outlay. When the Eidolon dies it's not much different from a caster who blows the bulk of his spells.
So yes a summoner is going to be without his pet for a day if he lets it die. It doesnt seem worse off then anyone else dieing though. Does the cleric normally carry around 5000 diamonds and prepare raise dead in this game? Usually a near party wipe like that puts the adventure on hold for a day anyway.They had in total, three scrolls of raise dead and 2 breaths of life prepared. I know it's a bit much, but play group is used to more high risk, high reward ventures.
As far as responses of don't let it die, the eidolon had best AC in the party, it not dying just means someone else dies faster. Same could be said to any other class, most classes are fairly ineffective dead, so they should avoid death.
I said in original post that I personally thought he was quite effective without his eidolon. Being the only one who could cast haste honestly made him the biggest damage dealer in the party. However, the player wanted his pet. Sure he could do other things, but that's not what he made his character to do.
Thanks to all for feed back, everyone ahs different play style, and that's why there are house rules.
I would house rule this one, and not recommend it for the actual rules. You guys are pretty far out there on the whole dying scale. I mean to make what you guys do work, its a large expenditure on scrolls of raise dead and presumably restoration as well (those 2 permanent negative levels can hurt). The normal rules probably should not account for this as it throw off the balance of the class to be able to bring the eidolon back more then once a day.
For you guys have a spell the same as raise dead with the same costly materials and penalty (negative levels) that brings the eidolon back immediately.
I think a spell to resurrect an eidolon early is a dangerous thing to put in. After all, what level do you put it at? Because once the Summoner took that spell, he would have minimum 3, eventually minimum 5 times where he could summon back his Eidolon, which is a little much, even if there is a casting cost.
But I think that there's a different issue brought up.
Saying that if the Eidolon isn't dying everyone else is makes it sound like the Eidolon is the only frontline fighter your group has, and that makes it sound like the fighter, cleric and summoner aren't doing their jobs. The Eidolon shouldn't be the only thing between the party and death in every combat you face, especially when you can have an army at your side if you need it.
Effective summoner will not only have his Eidolon, he will also have a few more creatures out, especially in a case where something is so powerful it is taking down two (effectively three) party members. This may mean that the summoner is behind the Eidolon using healing items (wants, scrolls, potions) on it to keep it alive, or summoning other creatures into flanking positions. Since everything he summons or controls goes on his turn, he can easily create a situation where the Eidolon can withdraw and other summoned creatures get in the way if it needs a moment to be healed up and buffed.
On top of it, the Summoner himself should be using his powers to weaken the enemy. Slow, Daze Monster, Grease, Glitterdust, Summon Swarm, Black Tentacles, etc. You have options to affect the battle.
The Eidolon is all but a second character, and while he is definitely a summoner's beat stick the summoner does have options without it. If the party feels they absolutely need it to go on then the situation becomes the same as if the wizard ran out of spells. But even with it gone the Summoner is not powerless and can still provide more than enough back up.
I think there's too many people who believe that the Eidolon is the only option that the Summoner has. It's a great power, but it is a summoned monster, and tactically the group should not plan that it will always be there. They should plan around the actual PCs and then include a spot for the Eidolon, so that they aren't helpless if it should die.
After all, if a spellcaster dies, he doesn't get spells back, so you still need to rest. Just look at the Eidolon as a big spell and the cost of "using him" is that he won't be back until you rest.