Oracle level 5 playtest


Round 1: Cavalier and Oracle

Sovereign Court

Okay so here's the thoughts my group had after playtesting to Oracle at level 5 with a cavalier and summoner of level 5. We've determined that a part of it was that the player didn't play to the oracles strength like he could have. but after the combat the player just felt like he was underpowered. He didn't feel that way with when he played a sorcerer to level 5, but he feels that way with an Oracle.

I think that the problem is that it doesn't have the healing capabilities of the cleric, and it doesn't have the blasting potential of an arcane class, and while it's balanced it just doesn't have the wow factor of the other new classes. What I think would help is if the player got the healing spells for free as spells known, that way he doesn't have to go out of his way to learn them I understand that then you have to think harder for a healing focus (say instead of HP focus on condition removal and restoration) but unless the character wants to ignore being the divine healer he has to loose a spell known to get healing spells and he's just kinda lackluster in comparison to the other spontaneous classes.


I agree to an extent, but rather think that they should get more spells known, which would make taking a heal spells not cripple their choices, and waht I beleive is a really good arguement for this is: the way the cleric and the cleric spell list is built, the cleric should and does know far more spells than the wizard (in general).

Oracle's are built of the base assumption for a cleric, and use the cleric's spell list, and will fill certain parts of their role.
So shouldn't proportionally the oracle know more spells than the sorcerer? Even with revelations, not loads more, like half again would make a huge difference, especially at low levels.

Sovereign Court

vagrant-poet wrote:

I agree to an extent, but rather think that they should get more spells known, which would make taking a heal spells not cripple their choices, and waht I beleive is a really good arguement for this is: the way the cleric and the cleric spell list is built, the cleric should and does know far more spells than the wizard (in general).

Oracle's are built of the base assumption for a cleric, and use the cleric's spell list, and will fill certain parts of their role.
So shouldn't proportionally the oracle know more spells than the sorcerer? Even with revelations, not loads more, like half again would make a huge difference, especially at low levels.

I'd have no problems if it was done this way, in fact that's a better solution in general, I just always try to think of the easiest fix for a problem.


I suspect the healing was left out deliberately so the oracle could be a divine character that fills a role other than healer.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:
I suspect the healing was left out deliberately so the oracle could be a divine character that fills a role other than healer.

Absolutely, but its still a divine character, with a divine spell list, so a few extra spells would well serve the less flashy, more utility style of divine magic.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:
I suspect the healing was left out deliberately so the oracle could be a divine character that fills a role other than healer.

What role, exactly? They don't have trapfinding, they don't have sneak attack, they don't have a full BAB or heavy armor proficiency, they don't have the kind of blasting and control spells available to a sorcerer, and they have nothing like the versatility of the wizard or cleric.

As it stands, a cleric can do pretty much anything an oracle can do, but gets two fluffy specialties with lists of bonus spells instead of one and gets spontaneous healing on top of that. This makes the cleric better at filling roles other then healer then the oracle is. The oracle is capable of failing to fill the healer role where the cleric gets that role for free, but the oracle is no more able to do other things then the cleric is.

I like the oracle having the cleric spell list, and I like them being a full caster. But being a full caster with the cleric spell list basically goes along with filling the cleric role. Giving them healing spells known for free regardless of focus is appropriate, imo, and I think giving them more spells known beyond that is also appropriate.

Sovereign Court

So we did further playtesting yesterday and there are some issues that arose.

First off Burning magic revelation does not work with produce flames, I don't think it was intended to not work. The fact that you can get burning magic at level one, but don't get a spell that gives a saving throw against fire until level 7 is an obvious oversight. But by the wording, produce flame doesn't have a save so it doesn't work with burning magic. My player learned that in game and litterally switched out his revelations.

Also after four combats at level 5 all CR appropriate the player had to say that the oracle just sucks in comparison to the cleric. The only thing he's really gotten for his class is darkvision to 60ft, an okay but not that great breath weapon twice a day, and a weak heat aura twice a day.

Compare that to a level 5 cleric, who has spontaneous cure spells, channel energy, at least 3+ channel energies a day, two domain powers at least 3+ times a day, and an extra good save and medium armor.

Oh and on top of that disparity the player is blind past 60ft.

The player, who was excited at the idea of an oracle class was quoted as saying "I hate the Oracle" yesterday.

This was playing it two days at 5th level, imagine if there had actually been a cleric in the party, or if he had to play multiple levels just to be so mediocre.

Sovereign Court

Fixes First off, any revelation you get should start with a min of 3+ uses per day, this starting off with one per day is making him terribly weak and looking at the cleric class with penis envy.

Second burning magic needs to be re-written so that it works in conjunction with any fire damaging magic.

Third the Oracle needs more spells known. The cleric list just isn't as nice as the wizard list, so an oracle needs a few more spells known so that he isn't lagging so far behind.

Sovereign Court

For the record we had 4 fights

fight #1 was against a lone winter wolf in a large cavern complex that allowed horse and eidelon and plenty of room to charge, difficult terrain was involved.

Fight #2 was against 4 morlocks in a crowded tavern, that meant no eidelon, and no horse as they weren't allowed inside. Also civilians meant area of effect spells were a no no. but gave the good guys some leeway as the morlocks also fought random tavern goers as well so they weren't focused solely on the PCs

fight #3 was against 2 lions, it was outdoors and trees and rocks provided enough difficult terrain that some charging was prevented, but not all.

Fight #4 was against a fiendish minotaur in a chapel where pews and platforms prevented some movement and placement of large creatures, but not all, however the horse had not been able to come because a casm earlier in the complex prevented large animals without some climbing ability from getting by.

Each fight was progressive from the last meaning resources had to be saved. Although the fight in the tavern allowed for them to use gold to restock supplies and buy magic services (healing) if necessary, however any limited by per day ability they used was not replenished.


Just to establish, I was the Oracle in lastknightleft's game. The character I built was a level 5 elf oracle with the blindness hindrance and the flame foci. I took the Heat Aura and Burning Magic revelations, and later swapped Burning Magic with Breath of Fire. My goal would be a character who can do some damage, but in a pinch be able to support with healing. It really didn't work out.

First and foremost, the burning magic revelation is useless if it doesn't affect all fire damage. It is for sure an oversight.

The real problem with the Oracle is he has no specialty, yet he isn't strong enough to fill other roles either. As a damage dealer, I was doing just as good with my bow as I was with any spell / foci. I used Produce Flames a couple times, which was doing damage comparable to my bow, but has the advantage of being a ranged touch attack. However, I have to give up a cure to use it, making it a not very tempting option (especially if it isn't doing extra damage with Burning Magic), and it takes a turn to cast and prepare it.

If the character is suppose to be adaptable, having everything split into specific number of uses hurts this. For example, having two fire breaths a day means I have to use two fire breaths; I can't use them as cures. This means I need to be up on the front line. However, being on the front line means the oracle is going to get hit badly. However, I don't have many heals or armor to compensate. The heat aura was a good getaway, but again, I have only two specifically of that, and if I am not in a position to use it, it is a waste. This makes the attacks hard to use, yet they aren't anything particularly more powerful than what other classes have.

In our five battles (we ran the last one twice), the bow was just as useful as anything else. The entire time I would have rather been a cleric. I could do literally the same damage, yet have substantially more healing, or on the flip side, be inflicting more damage if evil. In exchange for all that cleric power I got two mild fire attacks that I have to be up close to use, and can't see past 60 ft. Yes, I gain dark vision, but frankly I'd rather use a spell/torch or take a race with that ability.

From another perspective, I'd rather have been a druid than an oracle because of all the extra powers I get there, such as summoning, without many sacrifices. Ditto sorcerer or wizard.

In another case, we are playing a campaign where I have a level 4 sorcerer / level 2 favored soul. We were going to switch the oracle in for the favored soul to see how it plays (we started the campaign as a pathfinder beta, so this made sense for us). As a main class, the oracle is weak. As a sub class, it is a hindrance plain and simple. A level two oracle has to take a disability, that unlike as a main class, he will deal with the entire game without it getting better. In exchange for this I gain... one slight improvement to fire spells and a couple of heal spells? Again, I'd rather take a cleric sub class. Game test it yourself. Take a level 5 anything and give it 2 levels oracle, then try and tell me you would ever choose that as opposed to the other options. It just doesn't work.

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of the Oracle. It just doesn't work since it is too weak. It's the master of nothing and a very poor substitute for any role he tries to fill. The possibility of dynamics doesn't come close to making up for this.


kri77777 wrote:
For example, having two fire breaths a day means I have to use two fire breaths; I can't use them as cures. This means I need to be up on the front line. However, being on the front line means the oracle is going to get hit badly. However, I don't have many heals or armor to compensate.

Agreed. It's why Battle is the hands-down best focus. Skill at Arms gives you the proficiencies you need to use the weapons that bring the most to the table, and it lets you wear heavy armor, which is a godsend.

kri77777 wrote:


In our five battles (we ran the last one twice), the bow was just as useful as anything else. The entire time I would have rather been a cleric. I could do literally the same damage, yet have substantially more healing, or on the flip side, be inflicting more damage if evil. In exchange for all that cleric power I got two mild fire attacks that I have to be up close to use, and can't see past 60 ft. Yes, I gain dark vision, but frankly I'd rather use a spell/torch or take a race with that ability.

Remember, you're still blind in normal vision for 30ft. The darkvision just gives you "dark vision" that's in black & white for the next 30ft. Just felt like mentioning it. >>

I agree with what you said. The oracle feels like a weak cleric, with weak healing, weak spells, and he's forced to take a physical disability. While I think that the disability is cool with the things you get for it, having weak healing, weak spells and weak melee output makes the class lackluster. The only good focus right now is Battle, because of revelations like Skill at Arms that comprises well over 20 feats, Weapon Focus (3 feats) Maneuver Mastery (2 feats and a great bonus) and Combat Healer (free quicken spell without a level adjustment? great for when my quicken metamagic rod is out!) as well as the Final Revelation being completely amazing. Everything else is small time, and it really shows.

Sovereign Court

Ice Titan wrote:


Remember, you're still blind in normal vision for 30ft. The darkvision just gives you "dark vision" that's in black & white for the next 30ft. Just felt like mentioning it. >>

level 5, he sees out to 60 ft, and no we didn't forget it.

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