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So yesterday we spent the afternoon building new characters for playtest purposes. One player created a gnome summoner lvl 5.
Couple of questions that arose from the playtest.
So in playing I thought the eidelon was equal to my cavalier. I got nasty damage on a charge and when using my challange, but the Eidelon had better AC and more attacks in the round. Our attack bonuses were roughly equal my attacks were at +8 and dealt more damage, his were at +9 primary/ +4 secondary.
His AC blew mine out of the water. I had a +2 chain shirt, with a dex of 18, my natural AC was 21, 25 when charging. His AC at all times was 28. for the expenditure of 3 evolution points and a breastplate. I really think that the AC levels of the eidelon need to be toned down. When you consider that our characters were roughly equal in combat and then he gets a caster as well, it feels a little unfair. That's not to say the eidelon is overpowered, it isn't it's power level by itself is actually about right if it were by itself, but that's just it, it's not by itself. I have to wait till level 7 and spend a feat to be able to do what he does from level one for free, and he's just as good of a melee combatant as I am. Keep in mind that I also didn't let the player cast a summons, next session when he's able to do so because he's prepared, how is it going to play out?
We have more playtesting to do, Our plan is to run the characters through 4 combats for each level and test them at level 5, 10, and 15. So we'll see how it goes from there, but that is the initial feeling from playing one combat.
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So yesterday we spent the afternoon building new characters for playtest purposes. One player created a gnome summoner lvl 5.
Couple of questions that arose from the playtest.
Can a summoner with a quadraped pay for claws on front and back feet then attack with a bite and 4 claws? that came up, and I ruled that he couldn't get all 4 claw attacks in because he needed to stand on his hind legs, but the rules don't actually prevent it as far as I can see. Is that intended/okay? The wording on the slam attack makes it seem like it's optional to replace the claws with the slam. My player interpreted that to mean that if he wanted to he could instead just add slam and still get his claws. I ruled that if you have claws and you get slam you have to replace them with the slam, but I could also see getting the slam and 1 claw if I'm the one who's wrong. So in playing I thought the eidelon was equal to my cavalier. I got nasty damage on a charge and when using my challange, but the Eidelon had better AC and more attacks in the round. Our attack bonuses were roughly equal my attacks were at +8 and dealt more damage, his were at +9 primary/ +4 secondary.
His AC blew mine out of the water. I had a +2 chain shirt, with a dex of 18, my natural AC was 21, 25 when charging. His AC at all times was 28. for the expenditure of 3 evolution points and a breastplate. I really think that the AC levels of the eidelon need to be toned down. When you consider that our characters were roughly equal in combat and then he gets a caster as well, it feels a little unfair. That's not to say the eidelon is overpowered, it isn't it's power level by itself is actually about right if it were by itself, but that's just it, it's not by itself. I have to wait till level 7 and spend a feat to be able to do what he does from level one for free, and he's just as good of a melee combatant as I am. Keep in mind that I also didn't let the player cast a summons, next session when he's able to do so because he's prepared, how is it...
it does not say you cannot attack with both sets of claws on the quadraped, and the claws evolution specifically gives you extra claw attacks. However, I would also rule that "rear" legs could only be used for claw attacks in conjunction with the Rake evolution.
It states you can replace your claws with the slam ability for claws supplied by your base form. By RAW you could choose to pay 1 for slam and still get your claws from the base form. However, I think it was intended that only 1 limb specific evolution could be attached to any set of limbs. ( thus no claws and slam on the same set of limbs )
nothing, not even answers to my questions great.
I personally would have done the same as you, either you claw attack or slam.
Thanks for your post lastknightleft.
I wonder if it would make it better to have certain evolutions (and attacks) available for only one or two base forms instead of all of them.
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So we continued with our playtest this week,
Since there was no rule against it and he paid the evolution points he has a bite and 4 claws. We playtested this time using the updated rules, which was good loosing the armor evolution dropped his AC back down to the same as my cavalier, the player replaced the armor evolution with pounce. We had 4 fights.
fight #1 was against a lone winter wolf in a large cavern complex that allowed horse and eidelon and plenty of room to charge, difficult terrain was involved.
Fight #2 was against 4 morlocks in a crowded tavern, that meant no eidelon, and no horse as they weren't allowed inside. Also civilians meant area of effect spells were a no no. but gave the good guys some leeway as the morlocks also fought random tavern goers as well so they weren't focused solely on the PCs
fight #3 was against 2 lions, it was outdoors and trees and rocks provided enough difficult terrain that some charging was prevented, but not all.
Fight #4 was against a fiendish minotaur in a chapel where pews and platforms prevented some movement and placement of large creatures, but not all, however the horse had not been able to come because a casm earlier in the complex prevented large animals without some climbing ability from getting by. (this fight was run twice just for the fun of it.)
Each fight was progressive from the last meaning resources had to be saved. Although the fight in the tavern allowed for them to use gold to restock supplies and buy magic services (healing) if necessary, however any limited by per day ability they used was not replenished.
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So I have to say that the changes to the Summoner class are dead on. Summons shouldn't be a standard action, it just shouldn't. The summoner used his summons SLA in every combat and combined with his eidelon made for a pretty potent combination. When not summoning he would support with a crossbow.
The hardest fight for the summoner was the morlock fight because since there were 4 morlocks he figured if he summoned 1d3 wolves that he'd be better off so that the party had more creatures. Also since his eidelon hadn't been in that fight he was relying on the wolves to be his go to damage and the wolves didn't work out that well, they missed 80% of the time, but then when he got down to one wolf he decided to replace it with a single crocodile and the results were immediate. After that he only used his SLA to bring the strongest baddy he could. Heck even forgetting to apply his augment summoning feat to the crocodile it still got the job done.
I don't think that the SLA needs any changes. the 7+ per day and only one at a time means he doesn't run out. After 4 combats he still had 2 more summons he could pop out. The limited duration means that he might actually use more than one a combat. Don't change this ability back, it's perfect the way it is. At least for 5th level, but I can't see it getting weaker as it's always the highest level it can be.
The eidelon without armor was a lot more balanced as well, but the players and I agree that some evolutions are just priced too low, pounce is way to easy to abuse at one point, and the claw evolution should be 2 points since it gives you two claw attacks. You should have to pay one point per attack, getting two for 1 point is just sick, the eidelon at level one can have a bite and 4 claws and pounce. That's 5 primary attacks. We actually forgot to change the claws to primary attacks even, so it was a little more balanced on our end as the claws would actually miss occasionally unless the trip ability succeeded which it did most of the time, but if we had remembered that claws as secondary attacks was a mistake then it would have made a huge difference, and probably made the eidelon to powerful again.
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The summoner with his SLA is still the star of combat, in the fourth fight, both times we ran it the eidelon triped the minotaur and then the crocodile appeared, neither time did the CR 6 minotaur survive past round three. In fact I think he fell on round two both combats. When I don't have my horse my cavalier is still a decent contribution to the party because of challange, but seriously the eidelon is better than my cavalier.
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Also it's just rediculous how easy it is to have way more attacks in a round than anyone else with just the eidelon.
His eidelon for the cost of two points had 5 attacks at level five and they were supposed to be all primary attacks, my cavalier had one.
even if he had paid one point per claw attack at level 5 he could still pounce with 5 primary attacks (5 point total) and the only thing that would have suffered was his AC by two points or an ability score. and he'd still pounce and trip. It's unfair and way to soon when you consider he also gets a crossbow shot, and a possible crocodile bite. That's one character getting 7 attacks a round at level 5. even a druid with a lion or horse anco only gets 4 (claw claw bite or hoove hoove bite).
I think the solution is to say that an eidelon gets 3 natural attacks at level one, and every 6 levels can add another natural attack. That way it somewhat scales with the rest of the party. A level 1 eidelon would get a claw claw bite or a slam and two tentacles, or a gore and a bite and a tail. Then at level 6 could add a tentacle or etc. This keeps them in line and not making melee characters like the cavalier and fighter (the classes I'm playing for our playtest) jealous.
Even if I had kept my previous ruling on attacks with the hind legs, instead of claws on the back legs he could have paid for a tentacle, and skipped bite evo (to increase the Str damage) for another tentacle and then he still has 5 attacks, two acting as if off hand attacks.
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Christ, I'm tired of people whining about it having a bunch of claws. What's the Eidolon's AC if he's pushing all his points into attacks? It's probably quite the glass cannon. What else can he do other than punch something until it dies? Probably right around nothing.
You want to watch the Summoner fail, put him in a situation where kicking in teeth isn't going to save the say.
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Christ, I'm tired of people whining about it having a bunch of claws. What's the Eidolon's AC if he's pushing all his points into attacks? It's probably quite the glass cannon. What else can he do other than punch something until it dies? Probably right around nothing.
You want to watch the Summoner fail, put him in a situation where kicking in teeth isn't going to save the say.
His AC is 20, which isn't terrible at level 5 in fact my Cavaliers level 5 AC is 21, and he did have the armor evolution originally so his AC was 28 and still had the 5 attacks so he had the Highest AC and most damage. So No he isn't a glass cannon, with 5 attacks he still had enough points to buy improved natural armor and ability boost, pounce, and trip. And if I'm telling you that in a playtest he wound up having so many attacks and am not reporting that he fell easily to attacks wouldn't that put your glass cannon theory in the trash, but no, you're theory is somehow better than the results I actually got playing.
Why don't you actually try listening to people claiming it's a problem instead of closing your ears and whining nah nah nah it's perfect. Or are you so busy complaining that people are actually playtesting it and seeing eidelons with a lot of attacks and a decent AC that your actual brain has shut down and all you can do is enter peoples playtest threads and complain that they are whining??
A situation where kicking in teeth isn't going to save the day? what does that have to do with anything? Take a fighter and put him in a situation where kicking in teeth doesn't save the day, do you actually have a point to make or are you just trying to threadcrap?
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LastKnight, I am playtesting. My Eidolon has a bite and four claws and he's not particularly better in combat than our Rogue or Druid. And he's not worth hardly anything outside of combat.
21 is a pretty low AC for a Cavalier. I suspect its so low because you decided to put your resources into something other than defense.
Whatever. I'm not really sure why I bothered to post in the first place. Some people get really stuck on the possible damage and don't want to hear about the out of combat opportunities that an Eidolon has no place in. Agree to disagree?
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LastKnight, I am playtesting. My Eidolon has a bite and four claws and he's not particularly better in combat than our Rogue or Druid. And he's not worth hardly anything outside of combat.
21 is a pretty low AC for a Cavalier. I suspect its so low because you decided to put your resources into something other than defense.
Whatever. I'm not really sure why I bothered to post in the first place. Some people get really stuck on the possible damage and don't want to hear about the out of combat opportunities that an Eidolon has no place in. Agree to disagree?
I had no problem with you disagreeing with me, I took umbridge with you coming into my thread and saying I was whining when I was reporting what happened in my playtest.
And yes I went with a high dex mobile build that focuses on staying mobile, with dodge and mobility, but that's because I'm playing in a non-optimized group. And what gets to me is that at low levels the summoner is getting so many more attacks than any of the melee characters. and it's not until the higher levels that they balance out. Like I said, getting 5 attacks at level one is two points. Improved natural armor is 1 point, so a quadraped can have a 16 AC with 5 attacks at level one. on top of the summoner firing that crossbow every round, so six attacks. When my fighter with only one, maybe two attacks with TWF sees that it's jealous especially since I don't have the feats or abilities, to make me significantly better. We'll have similar attack bonuses, similar AC (mine will be two higher probably, I can't afford the best armor at level). I'm not screaming that the eidelon is overpowered, merely that the # of attacks available so early in the game is unfair.
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LastKnight, I am playtesting. My Eidolon has a bite and four claws and he's not particularly better in combat than our Rogue or Druid. And he's not worth hardly anything outside of combat.
Outside of combat he has the same skills as a fighter, especially when the fighter dumps int, which I see a lot. So I just don't see the complaint you have as relevant, especially when they get to choose 4 skills as class skills, they can be as revelant out of combat as any class.
Also my group doesn't really know how to optimize, I do, but I try intentionally not to so that I don't overwhelm them.
For example on a mounted charge without challange, my cavalier strikes for 4d6+2, so when I charge, I actually deal as much in a round as the eidelon. If I challenge I beat him on a charge and without a charge, but with challenge I'm approx. equivalent. But I only have one attack, I roll a one I'm out for the round. It's not fair that if he rolls a miss he has 5 more chances to hit, and has spells, and has a decent AC, even if it damage is approx. the same as mine. And I'm not trying to say take him to one attack, 3 attacks is what a typical AnCo or monster has at that level. at level 6 he'd get four. We can agree to disagree just fine. But I think it's unfair that one class can have so many more attacks at low levels without even trying.
Hi LKL, just to clarify:
the claw evolution should be 2 points since it gives you two claw attacks. You should have to pay one point per attack, getting two for 1 point is just sick
The claw evolution also requires Limbs(Arms) for each set of claws, so it DOES cost more than 1 point.
Tentacles are really the cheapest attack, which is somewhat countered by the fact they are secondary attacks.I do agree the point costs could be re-jigged, it's hard to say what exactly because once you adjust one factor everything is in play, so to speak.
But Pounce, and multi-Attacks in general, should be priced more appropriately to Character Level.
Simply giving Pounce a minimum Summoner Level requirement would be pretty direct and to the point as well.
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Hi LKL, just to clarify:
the claw evolution should be 2 points since it gives you two claw attacks. You should have to pay one point per attack, getting two for 1 point is just sickThe claw evolution also requires Limbs(Arms) for each set of claws, so it DOES cost more than 1 point.
To clarify it doesn't need Limbs(arms), just Limbs, and the biped and quadraped come with two sets of limbs. That means that for 2 points you get 4 attacks (1 point for bipeds they come with 1 set of claws for free). Now if it's the snake you're talking about then yes it costs more than one point per set of claws.
Tentacles are really the cheapest attack, which is somewhat countered by the fact they are secondary attacks.
agreed which is why I wasn't really talking about them, but I think if we limit the total # of attacks they can have in a round then that fixes the problem completely.
I do agree the point costs could be re-jigged, it's hard to say what exactly because once you adjust one factor everything is in play, so to speak.
But Pounce, and multi-Attacks in general, should be priced more appropriately to Character Level.
Simply giving Pounce a minimum Summoner Level requirement would be pretty direct and to the point as well.
The problem isn't just pounce, I don't think pounce needs a minimum level requirement if the eidelon has a limited # of attacks per level. And even with my suggestion the eidelon still has more attacks than any other character. Although I would not shed a tear if pounce was a 2-3 point evolution.