Thanks for not doing so! (Though I can always appreciate good irony, including being b*&3h'd out for an ironic post.)
To be honest though, the "no it sucks" mentality of this board bothers me as well, and I certainly empathize with not wanting to see class features that are absolutely fascinating (hi there bombs) stripped away in favor of complaints from people who haven't number crunched or playtested.
I would only add that Jason and his team have worked on these new classes for weeks (or more likely months) and I'm sure the have play tested the classes themselves. I am a bit amazed that after all their hard work and effort people still start bashing the new classes within hours of them being released.
My group is finishing off a series of adventures in the Falcon's Hollow story line so we really don't have time to playtest right now (and they'd rather not put one adventure on hold to start a 2nd one). But we've already talked about starting the Council of Thieves adventure path with a group made up entirely of the new classes. That will be fun.
I'd also like to point out that every class isn't suppose to be perfectly balanced. That's part of the game. You can't get 18 on every ability score, you can't have every class casting spells. Some class are better at certain things than others. We shouldn't have a game system where every character has a 1d8 melee attack and a 1d6 range attack and all the stats balance but the actual role playing part goes away until we're just a game of fighting stat blocks.
The imbalances of each class is what gives them character. I'd love to play a game where I have to figure out how to be effective using only my potions, my weapons and my wits. That sounds like a cool game.
Speaking as a parent, I will categorically say that there ARE some things you can't understand if you don't have a child. That doesn't mean you don't have the ability to make useful observations and interpretations of what you see, but there are some things you will see and interpret very differently if you are a parent.
Oh, I'm not a parent and I understand what it is to be a parent. In fact, I'm not a parent because I understand it ;-)
I think what this thread demonstrates is what this board needs is an "Ignore" button. It might make it easier to become less frustrated by posters who do not contribute fruitfully (even if they think they are).
That said, on the topic of playtesting vs. speculation, I note Jason Buhlman's post in the sticky in the Alchemist vs. Inquisitor:
Like the playtest of the core rules, I am looking for feedback concerning the mechanics and flavor of these classes. Since these are brand new classes, however, actual playtest feedback is of the utmost importance. Raw speculation and musings are useful, but playtesting is the most valuable feedback we can get at this stage.
So while, yes, playtest feedback is what he wants MOST, he isn't discouraging speculation. And since he wants feedback on mechanics AND FLAVOR, some speculation is appropriate in that regard.
What really needs to happen is that people become clear about what is their opinion based on what they've just read, and what is based on in-game testing. But neither are wrong to discuss, it seems.
I agree the problem is that there is MORE speculation than playtesting (and I totally admit I haven't playtested these classes as I've got no time or players to test with--but then I only posted once to these subforums anyway--I've just been reading them because I'm interested in seeing the feedback that others have come up with).
But if people who ARE interested in playtesting, like the OP, leave out of frustration, that only makes the problem worse than it already is. Especially since I can't playtest on my own, I really do hope to read (keep reading) KEJrs and others' playtest results so like others, I can see how these classes work at table. Thanks. :)
Please take the following with a smile. I love children, and most of my best friends are parents, and good people too. :-)
In that case, a lot of the parents I know would say that you're not a parent because you don't understand it, but you think you do. ;)
This is getting complicated ....
Not it's not that complicated. It's the same with all knowledges based on a private, priviledged experience. "You can't possibly understand my faith, because you never experienced God's call!" It's called mysticism. Yes, parenting mysticism. Basically, it's thinking a perticular experience is valid as a general statement about reality because it's your experience. Makes you special. People like to feel special.
It just deny the other any valid knowledge about the topic at stake, the validity of any knowledge being determined beforehand by the experience itself.
It's also the shortest way to end any rational discussion, and can lead to very dangerous ideas : (You cannot understand all X are evil and should die, because you never lived with some Xs.)
It's also a very pernicious use of seemingly validating a hasty generelisation fallacy.
Sorry, I'm just fed up with the "You cannot possibly do not want children! You don't get it! You are not thinking straight! I's just because you don't have one, have one and you will change your mind!" line of thinking.
Sure, I can understand, because saying otherwise would be to admit this simple thruth is possible : "you know, I make a mistake, I should not have had childern..."
And THAT is a terrible thing to say. No one will admit that. But look around, and you will see plenty of people, never saying it, but sure acting like they want you to get it : "You're going out tonight? Nah, I must stay home with my children, sorry."
I usually awnser to that line "No, I'm sorry for you."
But I guess I don't get it. Because the other option is being heartless. You can't not have children and not being heartless, no? And being a parent is sure a way to show how a kind, sacrificing person you are.
Yeah, sure.
;-)
stuffTime to get off the soapbox and start your own thread...
What is this thread about already? Oh, yes, was a very serious rant about playtesting ;-)
Sorry for the disgression... I guess I did not see the thread as a very serious one to begin with, exept maybe the very first post.
Anyway, carry on the discussion, if a discussion there is.
Seriously guys, It's difficult to feel out of subject when you can hardly figure out the subject... I would never permit myself to do that in the middle of a real discussion.
Anyways, just having fun, sorry if it was disruptive :-)
stuffTime to get off the soapbox and start your own thread...What is this thread about already? Oh, yes, was a very serious rant about playtesting ;-)
Sorry for the disgression... I guess I did not see the thread as a very serious one to begin with, exept maybe the very first post.
Anyway, carry on the discussion, if a discussion there is.
Seriously guys, It's difficult to feel out of subject when you can hardly figure out the subject... I would never permit myself to do that in the middle of a real discussion.
Anyways, just having fun, sorry if it was disruptive :-)
It was disruptive - check your ego at the door next time.
Smurf?
It was disruptive - check your ego at the door next time.
Whoa! Sit back, relax, enjoy a good decaff. At least I did not insult anyone.
Smurf indeed!
...Lookjudge...I hope this word gets added to Webster's, right beside "Truthiness" and "Wikiality". A very useful word in a lot of situations.
I lookjudge
You lookjudge
He/she/it lookjudges
We lookjudge
They lookjudge...
It would also make a good name for the Inquisitor's judgment ability, or in-game description of it.
"The big half-orc in the trenchcoat lookjudges you, and seems really pissed... roll initiative."
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It would also make a good name for the Inquisitor's judgment ability, or in-game description of it."The big half-orc in the trenchcoat lookjudges you, and seems really pissed... roll initiative."
And for evaluating school work. No more marking of tests of critiquing assignments, they're submitted for lookjudging. + + good!
And for evaluating school work. No more marking of tests of critiquing assignments, they're submitted for lookjudging. + + good!
It would also make a good name for the Inquisitor's judgment ability, or in-game description of it."The big half-orc in the trenchcoat lookjudges you, and seems really pissed... roll initiative."
Being a teacher myself, I must say this is very tempting.