Black pudding question for AGoW - BP's size after splitting?


Age of Worms Adventure Path


Hi,

I already posted this in the D20/OGL3.5 section, but since it is particularly relevant to the A Gathering of Winds adventure and I'm sure that there are people reading this who have run this encounter, I think that I should maybe have posted it here instead. Apologies if this kind of cross-posting is considered out of line here, but this is where I really wanted it to go, and now it's too late.

Anyhow, the question is about what size the new black puddings should be after the original pudding splits - ie. same size as original, or smaller?

Here's the thread I posted, which goes into a bit more detail (or at least a bit more rambling).

Thanks, and feel free to reply either here or there - I'll be checking both.

PS. Did anyone else have the opportunity to consider this issue earlier in the campaign? I did; there was a black pudding in the wandering monster table for the sewers in HoHR en-route to Zyrxog's lair. It wasn't easy, but I rolled one up and it ate one PC so thoroughly dead that the party was lucky to have been able to salvage enough of him to get raised!


Split (Ex)
Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.


Yes, that is the ability I'm asking about.

You have emphasized the fact that the 2 new puddings are identical to each other. But are they identical to the original? Clearly not, as they each have only half the HP of the original... But should they be the same size as the original? Maybe. Smaller? Who knows? The more I think about it, the more I think it doesn't really make that much difference. Smaller ones are easier to fit in a dungeon of limited size, but then there's a bit more bookkeeping too, what with the changing size modifiers to AC, attack rolls, grapple checks, etc.

Then there is the question of how one visualizes the splitting... Is it getting cut in half, or is it splitting like a cell? The former would support the freshly split puddings being a size category smaller (ie. roughly half the size) than the 'parent' pudding, and also seems to mesh well with the halving of each new pudding's hit points; while the latter might support the new puddings being the same size as the original.

So I'm mostly just curious how others have answered this question. Based on your reply, shall I assume you would make the freshly split puddings each the same size as the original?

So far, I'm leaning toward having them decrease in size when they split, mainly because the area where my players' PC's will encounter the pudding is a fairly cramped space and there just aren't that many 4X4" places to put more puddings down on the grid. Even with puddings that do split into 2 smaller puddings, I fear there could eventually be a lot of them forced to share space, which they should not technically be able to do while in combat, as normally they would be "pooted" (as our group refers to it) to the nearest available space that's big enough to hold them, should they try to stop in an occupied square. I would probably allow them to use the squeezing rules & fill up smaller gaps between other puddings rather than make them get pooted too far though.

Thanks for the reply,

Kang


Yes, identical is...... identical same thing with less hp because it's the only exception written.
But you can always house rule it as it seems logical that if you cut something in two half each is 50% smaller than the original.


I am reading "splits into two identical puddings" as only meaning that the two puddings produced are identical to each other. But since it makes no mention of them being a different size than the original, I tend to think you are probably correct. But I probably will houserule this one, as I can see my entire dungeon overflowing with gargantuan black puddings before long otherwise... :o)

Thanks again for your input; I'll make sure to post again once the encounter takes place, though that won't likely be until sometime in the new year.

Kang


Kang wrote:

I am reading "splits into two identical puddings" as only meaning that the two puddings produced are identical to each other. But since it makes no mention of them being a different size than the original, I tend to think you are probably correct. But I probably will houserule this one, as I can see my entire dungeon overflowing with gargantuan black puddings before long otherwise... :o)

Thanks again for your input; I'll make sure to post again once the encounter takes place, though that won't likely be until sometime in the new year.

Kang

No the puddings split until their hit points equal 10 or less then they can't split again. For example a pudding with 115 HP splits each with 57 HP (rounded down) then one of them splits again creating two more puddings with 28 HP then a 28 HP pudding splits creating two 14 Hp puddings by this time your players should realise what is causing the splits but lets say they are slow on the uptake and they split one of the 14 HP puddings again creating two more with 7 HP each. The 7 HP puddings are still the originals size but cannot split now.

Total amount of Puddings from the original one is 6.
However, as you have already identified, there is the potential for more puddings from the remaining 57 HP, 28 HP and the 14 HP puddings.

I ran this encounter and only suffered one character death.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

When a black pudding, or ANY ooze with the split ability, is split, the two creatures formed take up the same space as the original creature. They just aren't as thick; their oozy bodies spread out thinner to cover the same footprint as the full creature did.


James Jacobs wrote:
When a black pudding, or ANY ooze with the split ability, is split, the two creatures formed take up the same space as the original creature. They just aren't as thick; their oozy bodies spread out thinner to cover the same footprint as the full creature did.

Thank you for this "offcial" reply ;)


Yes - thanks very much, James.

Bodrin, I've done the math and this pudding could potentially be split into 32 gargantuan 9hp oozes. 32! When you ran it, did your party lose a lot of weapons & armor to its acid ability? That is some nasty stuff.

Unfortunately, the only fireball chucker in the party is the cleric's cohort, who's been abducted by Flycatcher already. Maybe it's actually for the best, as this gives them less motivation to split it into as many pieces as possible... (After the rogue got melted by the black pudding from the random sewer encounter I rolled in HoHR, they decided that from that point on their strategy against BP's would be to divide and conquer, ie. split them into many pieces & bombard the weaker resulting puddings with damaging area effects) I have no idea where I'd fit so many of them without 'cheating' by having them overlap and share space in combat (which is at least a lot easier to visualize with oozes than with most other types).

Should I assume that s/p weapons used to attack the pudding that get destroyed by the acid are still able to split the pudding, or would they have to succeed on that save, lest the weapon or ammo be "immediately" destroyed before causing it to split?

Thanks again for all the replies,

Kang


Kang wrote:

Yes - thanks very much, James.

Bodrin, I've done the math and this pudding could potentially be split into 32 gargantuan 9hp oozes. 32! When you ran it, did your party lose a lot of weapons & armor to its acid ability? That is some nasty stuff.
Kang

I would do the math again, it would be split into 16 (16 * 7 HP = 112HP) The first ooze becomes 2 oozes, those 2 oozes become 4, the 4 become 8 then finally the 8 become 16 on the final split the original 115 hp creature is now 16 gargantuan 7 hp oozes not 32 7 hp oozes (32 * 7 = 224HP)

Kang wrote:


Unfortunately, the only fireball chucker in the party is the cleric's cohort, who's been abducted by Flycatcher already. Maybe it's actually for the best, as this gives them less motivation to split it into as many pieces as possible... (After the rogue got melted by the black pudding from the random sewer encounter I rolled in HoHR, they decided that from that point on their strategy against BP's would be to divide and conquer, ie. split them into many pieces & bombard the weaker resulting puddings with damaging area effects) I have no idea where I'd fit so many of them without 'cheating' by having them overlap and share space in combat (which is at least a lot easier to visualize with oozes than with most other types).
Kang

No the party only lost one Rogue character who failed a spot check and the reflex save, a Critical fail on a Natural 1.

This character was very unlucky as his Reflex save bonuses from everything equipped totaled 18. Therefore a 3 on the roll would have saved the acid damage however with the Improved Grab ability +18 grapple check the Rogue was unable to be freed in time before the pudding died

Lots of spells were used though mostly ice storms (Bludgeoning and Cold), fireballs (Energy) and magic missiles (Force), it didn't split as they had learned their lesson from the HOHR sewers when they encountered a black pudding for the first time.

This pudding dissolved a Sycthe and the druid that wielded it.

The only time this sewer Black pudding split was when a younger player decided to loose an arrow at the hit point depleted Ooze, splitting it into two.

Kang wrote:


Should I assume that s/p weapons used to attack the pudding that get destroyed by the acid are still able to split the pudding, or would they have to succeed on that save, lest the weapon or ammo be "immediately" destroyed before causing it to split?

Thanks again for all the replies.
Kang

Making the save would split the pudding, failing wouldn't as they cause no damage (MM page 201 Split), in my opinion, however nasty Dm's could rule validly that the attack hits and splits the Ooze before dissolving.


This is why many parties have a "stay away from puddings and oozes" policy. The things are a Huge pain in the butt.


bodrin wrote:
I would do the math again, it would be split into 16 (16 * 7 HP = 112HP) The first ooze becomes 2 oozes, those 2 oozes become 4, the 4 become 8 then finally the 8 become 16 on the final split the original 115 hp creature is now 16 gargantuan 7 hp oozes not 32 7 hp oozes (32 * 7 = 224HP)

Sure, but the Elder Pudding I'm (still - took a break over the holidays, but back to it this Thursday) about to deal with in AGoW starts with 290HP.

1 pudding w/290hp => 2 w/145hp => 4 w/72hp => 8 w/36hp => 16 w/18hp => 32 w/9hp...
That's the pudding I was referring to when I mentioned "this pudding" above, but I can see how it got confused with your 115HP example. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote:
Making the save would split the pudding, failing wouldn't as they cause no damage (MM page 201 Split), in my opinion, however nasty Dm's could rule validly that the attack hits and splits the Ooze before dissolving.

Not so sure; the Acid ability only states the weapon must "strike" the pudding (in the SRD anyhow) - nothing says it has to actually damage it. The Split ability says the P/S weapon can't damage it anyhow (even with a successful saving throw, presumably), just as you pointed out. So I'm (currently) leaning toward ruling that splitting and weapon destruction can both happen - just striking it also seems to be the thing that triggers splitting (but that "immediately" is still in there to make me keep wondering if I have got it right...). But I don't think I'm all that nasty - I let their weapons and armor survive, taking just the regular acid damage (minus hardness) when they fought the one in the sewers of the HoHR adventure, after all... If not for that, the cleric wouldn't still be wearing Theldrick's old plate armor!

Thanks for the continued replies,

Kang


IMC, the party intentionally split it in four pieces so that a single, readied, empowered fireball was enough. the whole combat lasted only half a round that way...


Began the BP encounter in last night's session, and wouldn't you know it - after all this back-and-forth, they decide not to split the pudding after all! So now several of them are very low on HP and the cleric's healing spells are starting to run low. But we had some good fun.

The highlights of the evening:
- The rogue (same one who got killed by the random BP in HoHR) almost got eaten by this one too when he stepped on it. Never step on an ooze lord! He was fully grappled and constricted, but managed to somehow escape when the BP's grapple roll opposing the rogue's Escape Artist check came up a natural 1! I don't know if it is the 'official' rule, but IMC I have ruled that automatic successes and failures are possible on grapple rolls, since they are so similar to attack rolls.
- The pudding had the fighter (whose ancestral ceremonial +1 greatclub had just been dissolved) backed into a corner (on one of the staircases in the BP's room), so he activated his swan boat feather token, jumped into the boat, and now hopes to "sail" across the pudding and out the door into the hallway where it's a bit safer. I no longer feel guilty for not preparing as much for this session as I normally would have liked - who could possibly have anticipated that?!? Suggestions for how to adjudicate this would be welcomed; at the start of the next session the battle will continue, with the fighter in his boat (1 round after activating it). The session will start on the Fighter's turn. I don't believe the boat will have any chance of fitting through the door, but it should probably be destroyed by the pudding since it has been in contact with its acids for 1 full round anyhow (though he will argue against this, I'm sure).
- The cleric had bribed the Earl of Coalchester for safe passage and a bit of information by giving him a figurine of wondrous power - Zyrxog's bronze gryphon! When things got really nasty with the pudding, he called back to the salamander for more help, offering further bribes - the salamander agreed to settle on terms later and activated the gryphon to help the party deal with the pudding (he couldn't possibly attack it himself - compelled by conjuration, you see...)! This was also in the last round we played - the PC's heard the Earl scream in rage as the fiendish gryphon turned on him - I guess the cleric had assumed the cursed gryphon would get along better with the salamander than it had with him the time he activated it (during the battle with the Froghemoth in CB... Or was it the one with the Ulgurstasta? Either way, that was pretty funny, but another story altogether...). Looks like they're now caught between a rock and a hard place, but at least (hopefully) the gryphon will keep the Earl busy for long enough for the PC's to deal with the pudding before facing his wrath. The Earl may well also burn a few more of his spells dealing with the gryphon... He doesn't have too many left anyhow.

The pudding is now down to about half its original hit points. I fear there may be a PC death or 2 in next week's session.

Kang


Kang wrote:
so he activated his swan boat feather token, jumped into the boat, and now hopes to "sail" across the pudding and out the door into the hallway where it's a bit safer.

awesome.


More than you can possibly know... that player frequently comes up with unusual and cinematic ideas like this, but I'm so rarely able to allow them, as they invariably involve cramming at least 3 actions into a turn - when I explain he'll have to complete the last part of his maneuver in the next round, he generally abandons the plan (but not without some grumbling) rather than go ahead with it in a manner that is supported by the rules. This time was the happy exception & I'm glad to say he was able to slide down the inside of the hull (as the boat was wedged into the room with the nose down and poking out the door) to relative safety just before the boat disintegrated.

No PC deaths after all either, though there was one awfully close call - the monk finally dropped the pudding down to 3 hit points with the first attack of what would have been a flurry of blows, but he failed his save and the acid damage took him down to -9. Before his next turn, the 2nd round of fire damage from a flask of alchemist's fire (of all things) destroyed the pudding, so the cleric had time to rush over and drop some healing on him before he (90% likely) spent his next turn dying. During those last few rounds the rogue also blundered across one of the Word of Law traps (dictum spell - all but one (lawful) party member deafened and slowed for several rounds), which I was sure was going to end in disaster for everyone. But somehow they pulled through. I'm very happy I can say this, not just for the sake of the campaign but also because I spent a couple of months' worth of my free time building the entire first and 2nd level of the tomb in WorldWorks Games cardstock models (and some HirstArts casts in dental plaster as accessories), and they have so far only explored most of the first level, which wasn't half as complicated to build as the 2nd level... Anyhow, they barely had time to shut themselves in the puddin' room and quickly quaff a few meagre cure potions before the irate salamander noble burst into the room after destroying the unexpectedly fiendish griffon. Fortunately, they were able to appease him with more treasure and some effective grovelling.

Next step: get back their treasure, after resting up & healing. Then on to search for Allustan and the cleric's abducted cohort. Should be an interesting session next week...

Kang


I have players that try to cram 3 actions into one round too. Usually they are great ideas too bad the rules cramp their style :-)

So in your campaign Allustan was kidnapped and brought to the Free City Kang?


Dennis Harry wrote:

I have players that try to cram 3 actions into one round too. Usually they are great ideas too bad the rules cramp their style :-)

So in your campaign Allustan was kidnapped and brought to the Free City Kang?

Nope, Allustan is trapped deeper in the tomb as per the adventure; they've just come back to Diamond Lake from the Free City to deliver Eligos' notes to him. They're in the dungeon looking for him, but haven't yet found him. They're also looking for the cleric's wizardly cohort, who was abducted by Flycatcher during their first session in the tomb.

Kang


Ah I read the post wrong for some reason I thought you were still in the hall of harsh reflections.


Sorry if I misled you; I do tend to ramble on sometimes. They fought another black pudding previously in the sewers in HoHR (rolled randomly on the sewers encounter table in that adventure), and the fiendish griffon figurine I mentioned also came from that adventure. We're in A Gathering of Winds now, for the record.

I just picked up a mini to use for Flycatcher (Reaper minis' "Cadirith, Demonic Spider"), but I fear that it will probably end up being way too big for a Huge monster once the legs are attached (though I haven't yet fully ruled out cramming it onto a 3" base with a little clever bending & reposing), and that it won't get fully painted until it's too late. Oh well, it won't hurt to have a freakin' huge spider mini in my collection anyhow...

Kang

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