My eidolon can beat up your fighter


Round 2: Summoner and Witch

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Here are a succession of eidolon builds trying to generally mimic a melee pc's advancement.

I am nearly as good as your fighter - Level 1:

I could probably take your fighter
CN Medium Outsider
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception +4

DEFENSIVE
HP 13 (2d10 + 2)
AC 20 (+4 natural, +1 dex, +5 scale mail)
Saves Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +3

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft. (20ft. in armor)
Melee greatsword +5 (2d6+4/19-20) or 2 claws +0 (d4+3)
Space 5ft. Reach 5ft.

STATISTICS
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
BAB +2 CMB +5 CMD 16
Feats martial weapon proficiency (greatsword)
Skills Climb +8 (+4 in scale mail), Heal +5, Perception +5, Survival +5
SQ devotion, link, share spells

ECOLOGY
Treasure greatsword, scale mail

EVOLUTIONS
Free claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Chosen armor training 2, improved natural armor

I am better than your fighter - Level 5:

Definitely better than a fighter
CN Medium Outsider
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception +8

DEFENSIVE
HP 42 (5d10 + 15)
AC 24 (+4 natural, +1 dex, +9 full plate)
Saves Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +4;
Defensive Abilities evasion

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft. (20ft. in armor), fly 50 ft (35 ft. in armor) (good)
Melee masterwork greatsword +9 (2d6+12/19-20) or 2 claws +4 (d4+4)
Space 5ft. Reach 5ft.

STATISTICS
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
BAB +5 CMB +9 CMD 21
Feats martial weapon proficiency (greatsword), power attack, weapon focus (greatsword)
Skills Climb +9 (+4 in full plate), Fly +12 (+7 in full plate) Heal +8, Perception +8, Survival +8
SQ devotion, link, share spells

ECOLOGY
Treasure masterwork greatsword, masterwork full plate

EVOLUTIONS
Free claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Chosen armor training 2, improved natural armor, flight (+20 ft), increased ability score (con)

I am better than your fighter - Level 10:

Better than a barbarian, too
CN Large Outsider
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception +12

DEFENSIVE
HP 94 (9d10 + 45)
AC 33 (+12 natural, +1 dex, +11 large +2 full plate, -1 size)
Saves Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +9; +4 vs enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion DR 5/law

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft. (20ft. in full plate), fly 50 ft (35 ft. in full plate) (good)
Melee large +1 greatsword +16/+11 (3d6+23/17-20) or 2 claws +12 (d6+9)
Space 10ft. Reach 10ft.

STATISTICS
Str 28 Dex 14 Con 20 Int 7 Wis 11 Cha 11
BAB +9 CMB +19 CMD 31
Feats improved critical (greatsword), iron will, martial weapon proficiency (greatsword), multiattack(b), power attack, weapon focus (greatsword)
Skills Climb +14 (+9 in full plate), Fly +14 (+9 in full plate) Heal +12, Perception +12, Survival +12
SQ devotion, link, share spells

ECOLOGY
Treasure large +1 greatsword, large +2 full plate, +1 cloak of protection

EVOLUTIONS
Free claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Chosen armor training 2, damage reduction, improved natural armor, flight (+20 ft), increased ability score (con), large size

I am better than your fighter - Level 15:

I eat rangers for breakfast
CN Large Outsider
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception +17

DEFENSIVE
HP 94 (13d10 + 65)
AC 40 (+16 natural, +3 dex, +11 large +3 mithril full plate, -1 size)
Saves Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +13; +4 vs enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion DR 10/law SR 26

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft. (20ft. in mithril full plate), fly 50 ft (35 ft. in mithril full plate) (good)
Melee large +2 greatsword +22/+17/+12 (3d6+30/17-20) or 2 claws +18 (d6+11)
Space 10ft. Reach 10ft.

STATISTICS
Str 32 Dex 16 Con 20 Int 7 Wis 12 Cha 11
BAB +13 CMB +24 CMD 37
Feats improved critical (greatsword), improved initiative, iron will, lightning reflexes, martial weapon proficiency (greatsword), multiattack(b), power attack, weapon focus (greatsword)
Skills Climb +16 (+14 in mithril full plate), Fly +19 (+17 in mithril full plate) Heal +17, Perception +17, Survival +17
SQ devotion, link, share spells

ECOLOGY
Treasure large +2 greatsword, large +3 mithril full plate, +2 cloak of protection, +2 belt of giant strength

EVOLUTIONS
Free claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Chosen armor training 2, damage reduction 2, improved natural armor, flight (+20 ft), increased ability score (con), large size, spell resistance

I am better than your fighter - Level 20:

Sorry about your paladin
CN Large Outsider
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception +21

DEFENSIVE
HP 175 (17d10 + 85)
AC 53 (+24 natural, +3 dex, +14 large +5 mithril full plate, +3 deflection, -1 size)
Saves Fort +20, Ref +16, Will +18; +4 vs enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion DR 10/law SR 31

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft. (20ft. in mithril full plate), fly 90 ft (60 ft. in mithril full plate) (perfect)
Melee large +3 anarchic ghost touch greatsword +29/+24/+19/+14 (3d6+39/17-20) or 2 claws +15 (d6+9)
Space 10ft. Reach 10ft.

STATISTICS
Str 38 Dex 18 Con 20 Int 7 Wis 12 Cha 12
BAB +17 CMB +32 CMD 46
Feats flyby attack, greater iron will, improved critical (greatsword), improved initiative, iron will, lightning reflexes, martial weapon proficiency (greatsword), multiattack(b), power attack, weapon focus (greatsword)
Skills Climb +17 (+15 in mithril full plate), Fly +24 (+22 in mithril full plate) Heal +21, Perception +21, Survival +21
SQ devotion, link, share spells

ECOLOGY
Treasure large +3 anarchic ghost touch greatsword, large +5 mithril full plate, +5 cloak of protection, +3 ring of deflection, +6 belt of strength

EVOLUTIONS
Free claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Chosen armor training 2, damage reduction 2, improved natural armor x 3, flight (+60 ft, perfect), increased ability score (con), large size, spell resistance

Observations: aside from the level 1 build, these eidolons are equipped for 20% of a PC's wealth at the stated level - a very reasonable investment for the summoner's primary offensive tool.

Also, aside from the level 1 build, the base attack statistics include the modifiers for power attack. Accuracy is therefore somewhat lower than it *could* be, in the event of an especially evasive foe.

If this were my eidolon, I'd drop barkskin on it, kicking that AC up 3-5 points higher still.

Now, I don't mean to get in finicky arguments about what melee builds can accomplish what. I'm looking at AC, HP, saves, and damage output. First level is fairly comparable with a fighter-type class... but remember this guy comes *in addition* to the summoner herself. Assuming the fighter style build is not the most efficient for eidolons (and it's not) I'd say this is a fair demonstration of their excessive power level.

My point is... well, these guys have got to lose some points somewhere. I know they share the weakness of their summoner, but since summoners score every AC-boosting and hide-from-combat spell in the book, they're likely even harder to kill.

Damage output potential can probably stay where it is, but I think the eidolon should lose some of it's resilience. Cutting 1 HD off the progression at every level would do a lot of that, and reducing the base natural armor bonus to max out at +12 instead of +16 would be good too.


I would agree that the Eidolons seem at least comparable to a fighter in many regards, and being able to build them instead of an offensive tool into a defensive tool, making a brick similar to a fighter gives the party a returning cannonfauder tank that could go shoulder to shoulder with your parties fighter. While it gives the party another option to bringing a big burly fighter to stand in the front and take punishment for them, it also steals more than a little of the fighter class's thunder.

that being said, i believe (though i could be wrong) that your Eidolon's AC is too high. Natural armor gives an armor bonus, as does it's armor. armor bonuses do not stack (see page 149 of the core rulebook)

[EDIT]: i am indeed wrong (see page 292 of the Beastiary) in that natural armor AND armor worn give Independent bonuses to AC and do stack.


I think a good start would be to take away their ability to use items, apart from barding. Arguing with the fighter that your eidolon would make better use of a weapon/armor is silly.


Ellington wrote:
I think a good start would be to take away their ability to use items, apart from barding. Arguing with the fighter that your eidolon would make better use of a weapon/armor is silly.

Unfortunately, its pretty clear eidolons are supposed to be able to take more humanoid shapes, after the fashion of djinn, angels, and fiends. One thing I can tell you about those kinds of creatures is that they like their weapons and armor. Denying that option hamstrings the cool breadth of the class, never mind that it makes no sense. Why would an intelligent person-shaped creature with access to appropriate feats *not* be able to use equipment?

Of course having to haggle with the fighter for weapons for the eidolon is silly - eidolons should and will generally get hand-me-downs. It doesn't matter though - they'll mop the floor with the fighter anyhow.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I hope that an official ruling will state that the Eidolon loses any "prime material" items when killed ("sent home"). No sane person will invest in large +3 anarchic ghost touch greatswords for the eidolon if the chances of permanently losing the item are quite high.


This thing is more like leadership with the Eidolon being two levels behind as far as effectiveness goes. You saying this thing is better than all the melee classes does not make it so, even though I won't put my word behind any of the melee classes, except the paladin.


I think the best comparison is between the Eidolons and Animal Companions. It's obvious that many of the rules are ported over from there, and they likewise find the same niche.

Now removing both pets from each class it's obvious (I think) that a Druid is in stronger shape than a Summoner, so the Eidolon perhaps deserves to pick up some slack here.

-James

Dark Archive

I don't really have an issue with the summoner pet as far as power level. I think some of the evolutions could use clarification to prevent rules rape. But for the most part if you don't get really cheesy with the SLA's it seems to be about on par with an animal companion to me.

love,

malkav

Dark Archive

You'd have to make a fighter with similar gear and effective feat selection in order to prove that. Fighters get a lot more feats and so could have better utility than an eidolon of similar level.


I don't think so. You have that lower Bab, no weapon training/armor training and don't get a ton of extra feats. Sure your a fighter without all the fighter bonuses that can be banished. Plus if you want rocking armor and weapons for your summon you are now having to spend a good chuck of money on him.

Shadow Lodge

Draeke Raefel wrote:
You'd have to make a fighter with similar gear and effective feat selection in order to prove that. Fighters get a lot more feats and so could have better utility than an eidolon of similar level.

Plus, the Eidolon can only go toe-to-toe with the fighter as long as it's Summoner is alive(/conscious?). Taking the Summoner's damage(once the Summoner has 1hp left), will cause the Eidolon to fall and fall fast.


wraithstrike wrote:
This thing is more like leadership with the Eidolon being two levels behind as far as effectiveness goes. You saying this thing is better than all the melee classes does not make it so, even though I won't put my word behind any of the melee classes, except the paladin.

I'm not just saying it, I'm providing evidence. Even if a fighter, ranger, barbarian, or paladin could go toe to toe with an eidolon, its only barely just. Allow me to demonstrate:

Togg: A well-munchkined level 5 barbarian:

Raging Half-orc Barbarian 5
CN Medium Humanoid
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60ft., Scent; Perception +9

DEFENSIVE
HP 52 (5d12 + 20); renewed vigor 2d8+4
AC 22 (+2 dex, +1 deflection, +11 +2 platemail, -2 rage)
Saves Fort +8, Ref +3, Will +4;
Defensive Abilities improved uncanny dodge, uncanny dodge, trap sense +1

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft. (20ft. in armor)
Melee +1 greatsword +13 (2d6+11/19-20) and bite + 8 (d4+3)
Space 5ft. Reach 5ft.

STATISTICS
Str 24 Dex 14 Con 19 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 10
BAB +5 CMB +12 CMD 23
Feats Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Skills Intimidate +10, Perception +9, Survival +9
rage powers bite, renewed vigor

ECOLOGY
Treasure +1 greatsword, +2 platemail, +1 ring of protection, +2 belt of giant strength

Gobbler the Unpleasant: a level 5 eidolon:

Gobbler
NE Medium Outsider
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60ft.; Perception +8

DEFENSIVE
HP 42 (5d10 + 15)
AC 28 (+8 natural, +1 dex, +9 full plate)
Saves Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +4;
Defensive Abilities evasion

OFFENSIVE
Speed 30ft. (20ft. in armor)
Melee 4 claws +10 (d6+4 plus d6 acid)
Space 5ft. Reach 5ft.

STATISTICS
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
BAB +5 CMB +9 CMD 21
Feats Improved Natural Attack (claw), Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Climb +12 (+7 in full plate), Heal +8, Perception +8, Survival +8
SQ devotion, link, share spells

ECOLOGY
Treasure masterwork greatsword, masterwork full plate

EVOLUTIONS
Free claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Chosen armor training 2, claws, energy attacks, improved natural armor, limbs (arms)

Toe to toe, Togg has a 30% chance to hit Gobbler with his greatsword, doing an average of 18 damage - an average of 5.4 per round. The bite hits 5% of the time for an average of 5, so I'll generously bump Togg up to an average 6 damage per round. Gobbler has 42 HP, so it'll take 7 rounds to off him. Luckily, with higher initiative, Togg gets to go first.

Gobber, in turn, has a 45% chance to hit Togg with its claws, doing an average of 11 damage per hit. That nets 4.95 per turn, times four attacks, means gobbler averages just under 20 damage per turn. Togg has 52 hp + average 13 from renewed vigor, so he'll go down after 4 rounds of combat. Gobbler wins with ~10 hp to spare. It's summoner was never forced to cast barkskin or shield, nor call up a pack of fiendish apes to generate a flank.

That's at level 5, the last chance you get before the eidolon becomes large, and thereafter there's no keeping up with it's strength. I shouldn't even have to mention the further damage increases like rend, and ridiculous survival stuff like SR and DR (which, incidentally, outstrips barbarian DR handily).

I know min/max builds aren't the best guideline for judging overall power level, but I'd like to think that if a class *pet* is this easy to trick out, it needs some more fundamental balance work done.


Then the barbarian runs right past the eidolon and attacks the caster, crushing him while the eidolon tries to help/catch up.


Why did you select heavy armor proficiency for the Barbarian?

How exactly is your AC a 22 with the numbers you gave for the Barbarian?

What Race is Togg?


I agree with you, the eidolon does need a tone down and clarification. But, comparing it to the fighter isn't 100% fair. The fighter is long considered the unloved bastard of the d20 system, so using it as a basis for comparison will always make classes look too powerful. An animal companion is more powerful than a fighter in a game that isn't high point buy.

Now, if the eidolon is more powerful than the barbarian (and at this point it looks like it's going to be), then we have a problem.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
You'd have to make a fighter with similar gear and effective feat selection in order to prove that. Fighters get a lot more feats and so could have better utility than an eidolon of similar level.

Obviously there isn't direct parity between fighter bonus feats and eidolon evolution abilities, but unless you guys can show me any set of feats that can approximate DR 10/evil, SR 25, a fly speed, and a strength of 30, I'm going to have to say the eidolon comes out ahead.

xjoe3x wrote:
I don't think so. You have that lower Bab, no weapon training/armor training and don't get a ton of extra feats. Sure your a fighter without all the fighter bonuses that can be banished. Plus if you want rocking armor and weapons for your summon you are now having to spend a good chuck of money on him.

20% (what I've been working with) of your total finances is a pittance if the result is your eidolon can solo the party fighter. But honestly, it doesn't need the equipment; it's natural weapons and armor are beastly and Mage Armor with Greater Magic Fang pretty much accomplishes the rest.

Dragonborn3 wrote:
Plus, the Eidolon can only go toe-to-toe with the fighter as long as it's Summoner is alive(/conscious?). Taking the Summoner's damage(once the Summoner has 1hp left), will cause the Eidolon to fall and fall fast.

Did you read their spell list? Mage Armor, Barkskin, Nondetection, Greater Invisibility, Fly, Displacement, Teleport... they're a nightmare to catch and even harder to hurt. And that's assuming they just don't Hold Monster you and let the eidolon go to town. A wizard might have answers to that, but anyone without caster levels? Not so much.


Maeloke wrote:


Did you read their spell list? Mage Armor, Barkskin, Nondetection, Greater Invisibility, Fly, Displacement, Teleport... they're a nightmare to catch and even harder to hurt. And that's assuming they just don't Hold Monster you and let the eidolon go to town. A wizard might have answers to that, but anyone without caster levels? Not so much.

But now you are arguing that the summoner and the eidolon combined can beat up the barbarian, as compared to just the Eidolon.


Velderan wrote:

I agree with you, the eidolon does need a tone down and clarification. But, comparing it to the fighter isn't 100% fair. The fighter is long considered the unloved bastard of the d20 system, so using it as a basis for comparison will always make classes look too powerful. An animal companion is more powerful than a fighter in a game that isn't high point buy.

Now, if the eidolon is more powerful than the barbarian (and at this point it looks like it's going to be), then we have a problem.

I don't mean to pick on fighters specifically; I'm just using the name as a catchall for 'melee class'. The same argument could apply just as easily to rangers or barbarians (obviously). Paladins intoduce more variables (lay on hands, mount) so they're harder to judge (plus they're broken, of course) but I still think an eidolon could take one down.

Strategy responses:

Togg is a half orc, high fantasy (20) point buy for str 15, dex 14, con 15, int 8, wis 12, cha 10. Additional +2 went to strength, as did 4th level stat boost.

This particular barbarian is a heavy build. Full plate maximizes his AC while he 2-hands the greatsword. Yes, this makes him slower. No, this doesn't mean he gives up a chance to chase down the summoner; the summoner has cast invisibility and is hanging out just close enough to the eidolon to mean if the barbarian tries to sniff him out (with scent, perhaps) the eidolon can saunter in for attacks.

In the event Togg somehow swings at the right square, the summoner's AC looks something like 21 (+5 chain shirt, +3 barkskin, +2 dex, +1 deflection) on top of the 50% miss chance. If Togg wants to waste his time swinging at thin air on the hopes of landing one blow whilst the eidolon goes to town, he doesn't deserve to have made it to level 5.

Ughbash wrote:
But now you are arguing that the summoner and the eidolon combined can beat up the barbarian, as compared to just the Eidolon.

They're the ones off trying to chase down an invisible summoner. I'm just explaining why they won't find him before the eidolon does it's work. Even if he's not magic'd out of existence, his AC is going to be awfully high.

This is largely besides the point, really, which is simply that the eidolon is dangerous. I'm not playing PvP cagematch, I'm trying to demonstrate power levels. Even if a fighter knows to find and hit the summoner, the average monster probably wont.

Dark Archive

Maeloke wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
This thing is more like leadership with the Eidolon being two levels behind as far as effectiveness goes. You saying this thing is better than all the melee classes does not make it so, even though I won't put my word behind any of the melee classes, except the paladin.

I'm not just saying it, I'm providing evidence. Even if a fighter, ranger, barbarian, or paladin could go toe to toe with an eidolon, its only barely just. Allow me to demonstrate:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

This fight should go something like this:

George the fighter agrees to have a 1 on 1 match with the Summoner's Eidolon. Having just finished an adventure and outfitted themselves George decides that to make it more interesting they should wager on it. The Summoner is supremely confident in his creation and wagers 2000gp on the outcome of the fight. Surely a stupid fighter could not beat his companion. The fighter agrees.

Without stats I can assume that one of them will go first and that it will take more than 1 round for either of them to kill the other. So, someone goes first. Eventually the Eidolon attacks and hits the fighter for the first time. The fighter isn't hugely intelligent, but he is slightly above average. He realizes straight up fighting the Eidolon is probably a bad idea. Unfortunately he didn't take all those sunder/trip/grapple feats he should have. So he reaches into his back pack and activates his Whip Feather Token that he just picked up for 250gp. The whip only fails to grapple the eidolon on a 1( if a 1 is auto failure ) and the eidolon can only break free on a 20( if 20 is auto success ). I can be fairly sure that the eidolon is at least grappled if not pinned for the next hour and has a very low chance of ever attacking the fighter within that hour. The fighter proceeds to beat the crap out of the grappled/pinned eidolon and wins the bet. He immediately goes back to the market and purchases 5 more Whip Feather Tokens and still made 500gp on the deal.

Dark Archive

Ughbash wrote:
Maeloke wrote:


Did you read their spell list? Mage Armor, Barkskin, Nondetection, Greater Invisibility, Fly, Displacement, Teleport... they're a nightmare to catch and even harder to hurt. And that's assuming they just don't Hold Monster you and let the eidolon go to town. A wizard might have answers to that, but anyone without caster levels? Not so much.

But now you are arguing that the summoner and the eidolon combined can beat up the barbarian, as compared to just the Eidolon.

Actually I think he is saying that the summoner isn't much of an Achilles heel for the eidolon, not that they need to tag team the barbarian.


I think its pretty important to note that just because something has a great shot at beating one class does not make it OP. My monk can kick the crap out of any melee with a weapon. Against a beast... not so much. My girlfriends sorcerer can kick the crap out of most things with high ACs, a monk she would have a bad chance with.


Maeloke wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
This thing is more like leadership with the Eidolon being two levels behind as far as effectiveness goes. You saying this thing is better than all the melee classes does not make it so, even though I won't put my word behind any of the melee classes, except the paladin.

I'm not just saying it, I'm providing evidence. Even if a fighter, ranger, barbarian, or paladin could go toe to toe with an eidolon, its only barely just. Allow me to demonstrate:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

I made adjustments to the barbarian, and after doing the math it beat the barbarian at level 5 assuming he does not go after the summoner. Of course there is no gaurantee it would have killed the summoner in time to matter.

I wander if I could do the same with a druid summon. It also begs the question is the barbarian tough enough.

My adjustments if it matter to anyone was to make him human. I used that feat for intimidating prowess.

I switch the heavy armor out for weapon focus, since breastplate is medium armor anyway.

Dark Archive

Lokie wrote:

Why did you select heavy armor proficiency for the Barbarian?

How exactly is your AC a 22 with the numbers you gave for the Barbarian?

What Race is Togg?

and

wraithstrike wrote:


I made adjustments to the barbarian, and after doing the math it beat the barbarian at level 5 assuming he does not go after the summoner. Of course there is no gaurantee it would have killed the summoner in time to matter.
I wander if I could do the same with a druid summon. It also begs the question is the barbarian tough enough.

My adjustments if it matter to anyone was to make him human. I used that feat for intimidating prowess.

I switch the heavy armor out for weapon focus, since breastplate is medium armor anyway.

He edited Togg's stat block. He is now wearing full plate.


Draeke Raefel wrote:


This fight should go something like this:

1( if a 1 is auto failure ) and the eidolon can only break free on a 20( if 20 is auto success ). I can be fairly sure that the eidolon is at least grappled if not pinned for the next hour and has a very low chance of ever attacking the fighter within that hour. The fighter proceeds to beat the crap out of the grappled/pinned eidolon and wins the bet. He immediately goes back to the market and purchases 5 more Whip...

A 1 is an auto fail, and a nat 20 does not allow you to escape a grapple, only to initiate one. You have to beat the CMD which goes up by 5 if you don't get out on your first attempt.

Edit: From my reading the whip only has a +15 to CMB, and a CMD of 25(no dex is listed)

Of course if the Eidolon does not get out on its first attempt it will likely stay there until its dead. The fighter might even be able to power attack it since I think grappling affects AC.

edit 2: The CMD does not go up by 5. The whip gets a +5 bonus to maintain the grapple.

Dark Archive

wraithstrike wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:


This fight should go something like this:

1( if a 1 is auto failure ) and the eidolon can only break free on a 20( if 20 is auto success ). I can be fairly sure that the eidolon is at least grappled if not pinned for the next hour and has a very low chance of ever attacking the fighter within that hour. The fighter proceeds to beat the crap out of the grappled/pinned eidolon and wins the bet. He immediately goes back to the market and purchases 5 more Whip...

An 1 is an auto fail, and a nat 20 does not allow you to escape a grapple, only to initiate one. You have to beat the CMD which goes up by 5 if you don't get out on your first attempt.

So, yeah, fighter wins without much effort at all except the expenditure of 250gp.

Dark Archive

Draeke Raefel wrote:


So, yeah, fighter wins without much effort at all except the expenditure of 250gp.

And if the eidolon has a feather whip token of his own? Or a ring of freedom of movement?

Of course anyone can come up with a scenario where the fighter/barbarian wins... that is not the point...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Hmm...looking at the eidolon, I wasn't that impressed. The level 10 barbarian in my Saturday game has an equal AC when raging, does about as much damage, and has about a +24 to hit. I don't have the exacts, but considering that I was trying to beat his character up with a pair of stone giants last session, I have a pretty good idea. And this was a new player. *shrugs* So I don't see the problem, honestly.


Lord oKOyA wrote:

He edited Togg's stat block. He is now wearing full plate.

Yeah, sorry about that. He was statted correctly for full plate, just mislabeled.

Its hard keeping up with the responses here... glad to see I've struck a nerve!

Cydeth wrote:
Hmm...looking at the eidolon, I wasn't that impressed. The level 10 barbarian in my Saturday game has an equal AC when raging, does about as much damage, and has about a +24 to hit. I don't have the exacts, but considering that I was trying to beat his character up with a pair of stone giants last session, I have a pretty good idea. And this was a new player. *shrugs* So I don't see the problem, honestly.

Did you see the part where the eidolon was level 5, instead of 10?

The Exchange

Reading threads like this makes me want to sit down and hack out a program that takes two sets of stats and runs enough random combats between them to generate statistically meaningful results.

The fact that I'd spend most of my time making it look something like the end of Wargames brings me back to sanity :)


Maeloke wrote:
Lord oKOyA wrote:

He edited Togg's stat block. He is now wearing full plate.

Yeah, sorry about that. He was statted correctly for full plate, just mislabeled.

Its hard keeping up with the responses here... glad to see I've struck a nerve!

Cydeth wrote:
Hmm...looking at the eidolon, I wasn't that impressed. The level 10 barbarian in my Saturday game has an equal AC when raging, does about as much damage, and has about a +24 to hit. I don't have the exacts, but considering that I was trying to beat his character up with a pair of stone giants last session, I have a pretty good idea. And this was a new player. *shrugs* So I don't see the problem, honestly.
Did you see the part where the eidolon was level 5, instead of 10?

Me too really, that you struck a nerve hopefully will send a message that there many of us don't see a problem, or see a much more minor issue, and don't want to see changes to it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I was looking at your Level 10 Eidolon, to clarify.


Maeloke wrote:

*Snip*

Strategy responses:

Togg is a half orc, high fantasy (20) point buy for str 15, dex 14, con 15, int 8, wis 12, cha 10. Additional +2 went to strength, as did 4th level stat boost.

This particular barbarian is a heavy build. Full plate maximizes his AC while he 2-hands the greatsword. Yes, this makes him slower.

*SNIP*

Curious... could Togg intimidate the Eidolon? Even without the Intimidating Glare class feature Togg could attempt to intimidate the Eidolon before entering rage as long as he was within 30 feet. At only a DC 15 for the check Togg would only need a 5 or higher on his dice.

Edit: Half orcs are known to be intimidating and Togg does have that nice +10 on intimidate.


Lord oKOyA wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:


So, yeah, fighter wins without much effort at all except the expenditure of 250gp.

And if the eidolon has a feather whip token of his own? Or a ring of freedom of movement?

Of course anyone can come up with a scenario where the fighter/barbarian wins... that is not the point...

It seems it comes down to game mastery then, and/or who happened to be better equipped for a particular fight.

Shadow Lodge

Someone make a level 5 Eidolon and someone else make a level 5 Fighter. They both have 5,000gp to spend.

FIGHT!


Dragonborn3 wrote:

Someone make a level 5 Eidolon and someone else make a level 5 Fighter. They both have 5,000gp to spend.

FIGHT!

The problem now is metagaming. I would definitely try to win initiative, focus on trip, and have a reach weapon. I would also have spiked armor to be able to threaten a 5 ft area also.

Dark Archive

Quote:

Toe to toe, Togg has a 30% chance to hit Gobbler with his greatsword, doing an average of 18 damage - an average of 5.4 per round. The bite hits 5% of the time for an average of 5, so I'll generously bump Togg up to an average 6 damage per round. Gobbler has 42 HP, so it'll take 7 rounds to off him. Luckily, with higher initiative, Togg gets to go first.

Gobber, in turn, has a 45% chance to hit Togg with its claws, doing an average of 11 damage per hit. That nets 4.95 per turn, times four attacks, means gobbler averages just under 20 damage per turn. Togg has 52 hp + average 13 from renewed vigor, so he'll go down after 4 rounds of combat. Gobbler wins with ~10 hp to spare. It's summoner was never forced to cast barkskin or shield, nor call up a pack of fiendish apes to generate a flank.

That's at level 5, the last chance you get before the eidolon becomes large, and thereafter there's no keeping up with it's strength. I shouldn't even have to mention the further damage increases like rend, and ridiculous survival stuff like SR and DR (which, incidentally, outstrips barbarian DR handily).

Why is Togg not raging and using power attack? Would that not bring his average damage up to up to 27 per hit? (+13 for 28 str and 2h weapon, +6 for powerattack with 2h weapon,+1 for weapon enchantment, and +7 for average damage on 2d6).

This would also increase Trogg's hitpoints by 10. Togg is a half-orc and also gets on free round of beatdown even if he is the negatives.

And as far as the optimization. I think that the bite should be dropped for intimidating glare, and improved initiative should be dropped for intimidating prowess. This would give Trogg a chance to intimidate gobbler on every round after the first (regardless of wether or not his attack hit.) Trogg would have a +15 on this check (3 trained, 5 ranks, 7 for STR mod. this would increase to +17 while raging) and it would be vs a DC 15 for gobbler to resist (DC is 10+targets HD+ targets wis mod).Trogg could not fail this roll. And because fear effects are cumulative Gobbler will be panicked by round 3 and will only get to attack at all in the very first round. Trogg also has a better movement rate than gobbler (or the same of you put him in plate) so he can keep up, and if and if the battlefield is not a flat plane, then there is a good chance Trogg may be able to score some hits with charge actions while ol Gobbler is running like a coward. Or I could whip out my bow and ping it while it runs alternatively.

love,

malkav


malkav666 wrote:
Quote:

Toe to toe, Togg has a 30% chance to hit Gobbler with his greatsword, doing an average of 18 damage - an average of 5.4 per round. The bite hits 5% of the time for an average of 5, so I'll generously bump Togg up to an average 6 damage per round. Gobbler has 42 HP, so it'll take 7 rounds to off him. Luckily, with higher initiative, Togg gets to go first.

Gobber, in turn, has a 45% chance to hit Togg with its claws, doing an average of 11 damage per hit. That nets 4.95 per turn, times four attacks, means gobbler averages just under 20 damage per turn. Togg has 52 hp + average 13 from renewed vigor, so he'll go down after 4 rounds of combat. Gobbler wins with ~10 hp to spare. It's summoner was never forced to cast barkskin or shield, nor call up a pack of fiendish apes to generate a flank.

That's at level 5, the last chance you get before the eidolon becomes large, and thereafter there's no keeping up with it's strength. I shouldn't even have to mention the further damage increases like rend, and ridiculous survival stuff like SR and DR (which, incidentally, outstrips barbarian DR handily).

Why is Togg not raging and using power attack? Would that not bring his average damage up to up to 27 per hit? (+13 for 28 str and 2h weapon, +6 for powerattack with 2h weapon,+1 for weapon enchantment, and +7 for average damage on 2d6).

This would also increase Togg's hitpoints by 10. Togg is a half-prc and also gets on free round of beatdown even if he is the negatives.

And as far as the optimization. I think that the bite should be dropped for intimidating glare, and improved initiative should be dropped for intimidating prowess. This would give Trogg a chance to intimidate gobbler on every round after the first (regardless of wether or not his attack hit.) Trogg would have a +15 on this check (3 trained, 5 ranks, 7 for STR mod. this would increase to +17 while raging) and it would be vs a DC 15 for gobbler to resist (DC is 10+targets HD+ targets wis mod).Trogg could not fail this roll. And...

heh... great minds!

Dark Archive

You also failed to give Trogg his 5 bonus HP from favored class barbarian.

love,

malkav

Sovereign Court

Cydeth wrote:
Hmm...looking at the eidolon, I wasn't that impressed. The level 10 barbarian in my Saturday game has an equal AC when raging, does about as much damage, and has about a +24 to hit. I don't have the exacts, but considering that I was trying to beat his character up with a pair of stone giants last session, I have a pretty good idea. And this was a new player. *shrugs* So I don't see the problem, honestly.

So what your saying is that your 10th level barbarian is about equal to the eidelon if you ignore the fact that the eidelon is merely a class feature and you still have a strong caster that is bringing in more and more monsters.

I think this is pretty much confirmation that the eidelon needs to be toned down a bit, I don't want to see fewer evolutions, I love the evolutions. But the basic build that they are stacked upon needs to be taken down a notch. Also I'd really prefer if the eidelon couldn't use magic items. I have no problem with them wielding weapons and armor, but say magic items interfere with their morphic nature or something and just don't allow them to use/carry magic items.

Dark Archive

lastknightleft wrote:

So what your saying is that your 10th level barbarian is about equal to the eidelon if you ignore the fact that the eidelon is merely a class feature and you still have a strong caster that is bringing in more and more monsters.

I think this is pretty much confirmation that the eidelon needs to be toned down a bit...

+1

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

No, I'm saying that my 10th level, non min-maxed barbarian is as powerful as the relatively min-maxed 10th level eidolon. Completely different situation.

Dark Archive

So far I have only seen 1 person post a play test on the the forums and they said that the eidolon was equivalent to the other APG classes. It is kind of pointless to argue the relative merits or OP value of a class without having played it in an actual game. Numbers crunching only gets you so far.


DnD was never about classes being balanced if they fight each other. That is MMO material. Some classes like a Wizard would destroy a fighter most of the time. You are a team/group and I think the fighter would be glad to have BDF with him or a wizard with him.

Is the Eiodolon a little too tough? Maybe I am going to start one for Pathfinder society and see hows it go. My initial reaction I think the only change Eidolon needs is to get the Druid companion D8 HP and follow the Druid's Animal companion HD progression.


malkav666 wrote:
Quote:

Toe to toe, Togg has a 30% chance to hit Gobbler with his greatsword, doing an average of 18 damage - an average of 5.4 per round. The bite hits 5% of the time for an average of 5, so I'll generously bump Togg up to an average 6 damage per round. Gobbler has 42 HP, so it'll take 7 rounds to off him. Luckily, with higher initiative, Togg gets to go first.

Gobber, in turn, has a 45% chance to hit Togg with its claws, doing an average of 11 damage per hit. That nets 4.95 per turn, times four attacks, means gobbler averages just under 20 damage per turn. Togg has 52 hp + average 13 from renewed vigor, so he'll go down after 4 rounds of combat. Gobbler wins with ~10 hp to spare. It's summoner was never forced to cast barkskin or shield, nor call up a pack of fiendish apes to generate a flank.

That's at level 5, the last chance you get before the eidolon becomes large, and thereafter there's no keeping up with it's strength. I shouldn't even have to mention the further damage increases like rend, and ridiculous survival stuff like SR and DR (which, incidentally, outstrips barbarian DR handily).

Why is Togg not raging and using power attack? Would that not bring his average damage up to up to 27 per hit? (+13 for 28 str and 2h weapon, +6 for powerattack with 2h weapon,+1 for weapon enchantment, and +7 for average damage on 2d6).

This would also increase Trogg's hitpoints by 10. Togg is a half-orc and also gets on free round of beatdown even if he is the negatives.

And as far as the optimization. I think that the bite should be dropped for intimidating glare, and improved initiative should be dropped for intimidating prowess. This would give Trogg a chance to intimidate gobbler on every round after the first (regardless of wether or not his attack hit.) Trogg would have a +15 on this check (3 trained, 5 ranks, 7 for STR mod. this would increase to +17 while raging) and it would be vs a DC 15 for gobbler to resist (DC is 10+targets HD+ targets wis mod).Trogg could not fail this roll. And...

The OP said he was raging. I did not check his math though.

copied from the stat block-->Raging Half-orc Barbarian 5


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lord oKOyA wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:

So what your saying is that your 10th level barbarian is about equal to the eidelon if you ignore the fact that the eidelon is merely a class feature and you still have a strong caster that is bringing in more and more monsters.

I think this is pretty much confirmation that the eidelon needs to be toned down a bit, I don't want to see fewer evolutions, I love the evolutions. But the basic build that they are stacked upon needs to be taken down a notch. Also I'd really prefer if the eidelon couldn't use magic items. I have no problem with them wielding weapons and armor, but say magic items interfere with their morphic nature or something and just don't allow them to use/carry magic items.

+1

I wouldnt have a problem with not being able to use magic armor, but magic weapons is a different story. Against some enemies you need either magic weapons or alignment/special material weapons or you are basically doing nothing. Everyone runs this risk in a surprise encounter, but if you are expecting it (going werewolf hunting or something) there should be a way for you to equip your eidolon for it.

I agree that magic gear can be a serious concern here, and i would rather see it limited or eliminated in favor of keeping the eidolon as it is. Its hard to eliminate the coolness factor of allowing it armor and weapons, but from a balance standpoint i would rather see it get only a single magic item slot of either neck, head, cloak or belt, and everything else has to come from physical evolutions (natural armor, or attack enhancements).


Mahrdol wrote:

DnD was never about classes being balanced if they fight each other. That is MMO material. Some classes like a Wizard would destroy a fighter most of the time. You are a team/group and I think the fighter would be glad to have BDF with him or a wizard with him.

Is the Eiodolon a little too tough? Maybe I am going to start one for Pathfinder society and see hows it go. My initial reaction I think the only change Eidolon needs is to get the Druid companion D8 HP and follow the Druid's Animal companion HD progression.

I would say a druid w/o his animal companion is a lot stronger than a summoner w/o his eidolon. That is why the eidolon is made stronger.

Sovereign Court

Cydeth wrote:
No, I'm saying that my 10th level, non min-maxed barbarian is as powerful as the relatively min-maxed 10th level eidolon. Completely different situation.

That is not a min maxed eidelon.

A non-min/maxed eidelon and a non min/maxed barbarian are equivalent, that's a problem.

Dark Archive

Cydeth wrote:
No, I'm saying that my 10th level, non min-maxed barbarian is as powerful as the relatively min-maxed 10th level eidolon. Completely different situation.

?!?

The class feature of one class is roughly the equivalent/equal of another entire class and you don't see a balance issue?

I see a few player's upset that they are constantly upstaged by another player's "pet" while that player is still a functioning caster in his/her own right.

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