How does Paizo differ, should it try to reclain some of the original dnd bloodline for those who remember..


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Food for thought

http://web.fisher.cx/robert/infogami/Classic_D&D:_I_used_to_think...

http://web.fisher.cx/robert/infogami/Classic_D&D

http://www.philotomy.com/#armor_class

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/251545-why-thac0-rocks. html

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=469247&page=6

http://www.triaxe.co.uk/dnd/index.php?page=Weapons&id=6

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Are you seriously trying to make a case for THAC0?


I have not clicked on any of the links. Does anyone know what the OP is trying to see since he gave me no reason to visit any of those websites?

edit: I went to one of those website, and it had more stuff than I felt like reading. Maybe the OP could give us a summary of what he is trying to say.


Ok, I am an oldschooler and I don't feel that this is necessary, except that Robert Fisher and Philotomy's websites have a lot of great gaming information that can be used for any fantasy game. I will always use Philotomy's dungeon as Mythic Underworld philosophy, but it isn't that relavent to Paizo in my opinion.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:
I have not clicked on any of the links. Does anyone know what the OP is trying to see since he gave me no reason to visit any of those websites?

+1

I think he's just living up to his name. ;)


1. Many posts people are talking about old editions with little knowledge or memory.
2. Some newer players might be interested in the history and mechanics of their hobby. Even for older players or savants that started young it makes for an interesting read.
3. There is plenty of stuff there for people to make their games better.
3. Was mostly hoping some skerrigs of past editions that made the game great might be milked and suggested translations for paizo given to make it the premiere system and total inheritor of the dnd vision.

Your all insane ! ;p

Sovereign Court

We may be insane, but we can count to 4!

The Exchange

insaneogeddon wrote:

1. Many posts people are talking about old editions with little knowledge or memory.

2. Some newer players might be interested in the history and mechanics of their hobby. Even for older players or savants that started young it makes for an interesting read.
3. There is plenty of stuff there for people to make their games better.
3. Was mostly hoping some skerrigs of past editions that made the game great might be milked and suggested translations for paizo given to make it the premiere system and total inheritor of the dnd vision.

Your all insane ! ;p

*crumbles into a pile of dust under the weight of ages*

Liberty's Edge

Twowlves wrote:


We may be insane, but we can count to 4!

You, sir, just caused me to choke on a potato chip. Now my wife is concerned for my health.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

insaneogeddon, maybe you could explain what you consider to be the strengths of original D&D or early AD&D.

I ask because the links you posted are delightful in two aspects: the authors repeatedly insist that the rules work great under a good DM, and each offers his own modifications and house rules as well. (The Tri Axe link isn't even original D&D, so far as I can tell. It seems to be a shared-DMing world site.)

Well, sure, but any system --even the one you hate-- works great if you're playing with a great DM, who's willing to fill in gaps, modify the game, and make a bunch of rulings on the spot. The best DMs I've seen could hardly have been said to use a system at all, weaving terrific storylines and engaging their players, sometimes pausing to roll percentile dice.

The same terrific DMs who make original D&D work can do the same with 2nd Edition, 3rd Edition, 4th Edition, GURPS, Runequest, FGU's Swordbearer, or SPI's Dragon Quest.

The suggestion that Pathfinder might return to THAC0, or get rid of the "self-justifying" rogue/thief class, or implement whatever other mechanical retrograde decision --and that such a decision might return gaming back to the days of great DMs-- misses the point.

Grand Lodge

I'm interested in browsing -- though it is kinda funny that you couldn't count to 4 -- but, yeah, looking up those old sites does not look fun.

How 'bout this -- copy/paste a few teaser paragraphs from one or two of those sites here and then we can talk about them.

That'd be cool.


I add my red roubles in relevant other posts and ways. As for this one what can be milked I am yet to figure that one out as real think time and end of the year are mutually exclusive. The posted sites above are as much about sharing nice/interesting sites as much as anything else with the chance of some gain for all of us if a good idea pops out.

There has to be a happy place between good DMs and rulings that create good DMing and bring some more soul back. The brain trust that lurks might be able to help to this end, worth a post really.

As for this count to 4 business i have NO idea what you're all talking about there is no rule but the rule of 3. If you think otherwise.
Your all insane ! ;p

The Exchange

Linkyfied

insaneogeddon wrote:

Food for thought

Classic D&D: I used to think...

Just thinking out loud

Classic D&D

Philotomy's OD&D Musings

En-World OD&D Forums

Looking at what was wrong with the 3.x Fighter by analyzing the 1E/2E Fighter

Triaxe D&D

My suggestions: House rules.


I have the urge to read Time Cube now.


insaneogeddon wrote:

I add my red roubles in relevant other posts and ways. As for this one what can be milked I am yet to figure that one out as real think time and end of the year are mutually exclusive. The posted sites above are as much about sharing nice/interesting sites as much as anything else with the chance of some gain for all of us if a good idea pops out.

There has to be a happy place between good DMs and rulings that create good DMing and bring some more soul back. The brain trust that lurks might be able to help to this end, worth a post really.

As for this count to 4 business i have NO idea what you're all talking about there is no rule but the rule of 3. If you think otherwise.
Your all insane ! ;p

wow. im sorry but wow.

Liberty's Edge

Shinmizu wrote:
I have the urge to read Time Cube now.

Oh my god...it's gotten bigger since I last saw it. o_0

Shadow Lodge

insaneogeddon wrote:
Your all insane ! ;p

<grammarpolice> This might be more funny to put at the end of all your posts if you were to use the contraction correctly. Your is possessive, you're is short for "you are". Once I'll overlook, multiple times, you might want to rethink your signature. </grammarpolice>


insaneogeddon wrote:
Food for thought

Indeed, food for thought. Thanks for sharing these links. I enjoyed reading these, and I doubt I would have seen them if you hadn't posted the links.


MisterSlanky wrote:
insaneogeddon wrote:
Your all insane ! ;p
<grammarpolice> This might be more funny to put at the end of all your posts if you were to use the contraction correctly. Your is possessive, you're is short for "you are". Once I'll overlook, multiple times, you might want to rethink your signature. </grammarpolice>

its not a sig at all but a chosen statement for the purpose of irony.

Your replacing you are in common usage is well within acceptable usage just like insanoes instead of insanoes' opinion. Tho frankly my care for grammer is long dead due to infinite opposition and the inherent lost cause so now i just play at it.

At least someone got something out of the links.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Again, I invite you to explain what aspects of early D&D you think should be more strongly emphasized in current play. One of the sites you recommended continually quotes Mike Mearls' experiences running original D&D and the lessons it taught him, but the game he developed, 4th Edition, is still very different from Gary Gygax's little three books. Do you think 4th Edition hits the mark?

insaneogeddon wrote:


Your replacing you are in common usage is well within acceptable usage.

No, actually, it's not. Like any other spelling or grammar error, it's tolerated on friendly boards, but readers consider it an indicator that the writer is struggling with literacy.

True story: last week, a friend of mine was debating whether or not to recommend someone else for a job she knew was open. Her serious reservation: the potential applicant couldn't distinguish between the words they're and their. I suggested that it depended on the job: a secretary needed to know that. A forklift operator probably didn't. An upper-level manager with her own secretary ...

Here's the take-home assertion: good grammar and coherent prose are important, because ideas matter, and words are how we express ideas. Good text is not only a joy to read, but also a clear channel for the marketplace of ideas. Incoherent sentences and jumbled spelling are neither trend-setting nor funny. They are signs that the writer either (a) is disabled, or (b) respects neither his own opinions nor his readers.

Gygax's spelling was poor, so he got himself an editor. His grammar was at times turgid, but through his vocabulary and sophisticated subject matter he demonstrated his respect for both his readers and the medium through which he addressed them.


This thread is hurting my brain........

So your argument is that we should look back to previous editions to capture the essence of what made D&D such a fun game to play.

While I agree that some of the spirit and "feel" was lost in the latter editions, I believe that Paizo is already addressing this.

The quality of Paizo's work takes me back to those heady days when I was being slaughtered by Kobolds on the Borderlands, Investigating the Horror on the Hill (Red bloody dragon), Fighting Juggernauts in Master of the Desert Nomads and establishing my own barony in Test of the Warlords.

Anything that does not evolve, stagnates, calcifies and dies. You can relive the past but its been done already.

For me the experience I had when playing D&D for the first time - was wow this game is new exciting and different it fired my imagination made me want to create new worlds and people.

This is what Pathfinder does for me now, I can bring the spirit and feel that the game had for me in the 80's and apply it to the mechanics and rich texture that is the game of the 21st century. I don't have to revisit old mechanics to do that.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Chris Mortika wrote:
insaneogeddon wrote:


Your replacing you are in common usage is well within acceptable usage.

No, actually, it's not. Like any other spelling or grammar error, it's tolerated on friendly boards, but readers consider it an indicator that the writer is struggling with literacy.

...

Here's the take-home assertion: good grammar and coherent prose are important, because ideas matter, and words are how we express ideas. Good text is not only a joy to read, but also a clear channel for the marketplace of ideas. Incoherent sentences and jumbled spelling are neither trend-setting nor funny. They are signs that the writer either (a) is disabled, or (b) respects neither his own opinions nor his readers.

This should be stickied or added to the posting guidelines site-wide.


yoda8myhead wrote:
"Chris Mortika wrote:
Here's the take-home assertion: good grammar and coherent prose are important, because ideas matter, and words are how we express ideas. Good text is not only a joy to read, but also a clear channel for the marketplace of ideas. Incoherent sentences and jumbled spelling are neither trend-setting nor funny. They are signs that the writer either (a) is disabled, or (b) respects neither his own opinions nor his readers.
This should be stickied or added to the posting guidelines site-wide.

There's always an an anomaly/exception to the rule. ;'>


And now a word from our sponsors.

Grand Lodge

This is what I've been telling my students for years: if you're using good grammar and are educated (know lots of trivial stuff) then people will think you're smart even if you're dumb. So, use good grammar and people will respect your intelligence even if it's unfounded.

Likewise, though it may not be fair, if you use bad grammar people will think you're a moron even if you're brilliant.

At Bryn Mawr a few years ago I had an kid who was very bright -- her writing was clever and somewhat intuitive and engaging. But she still used her inner-city street grammar. "On principle," she said. She earned a good grade in my class but it would've been stronger except for her bad grammar and usage.

It's truth, for better or worse for society, no matter how smart you are or how profound your dialog, if you communicate poorly people believe you're stupid and won't respect what you have to say.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, and I'll get to those links asap (busy days ahead, though)

Dark Archive

W E Ray wrote:
This is what I've been telling my students for years: if you're using good grammar and are educated (know lots of trivial stuff) then people will think you're smart even if you're dumb.

I always tell my students to sound like you know what you are talking about, even when you don't because most people won't know the difference.


Chris Mortika wrote:
Here's the take-home assertion: good grammar and coherent prose are important, because ideas matter, and words are how we express ideas. Good text is not only a joy to read, but also a clear channel for the marketplace of ideas. Incoherent sentences and jumbled spelling are neither trend-setting nor funny. They are signs that the writer either (a) is disabled, or (b) respects neither his own opinions nor his readers.

Me fail English? That's unpossible!


Chris Mortika wrote:
Here's the take-home assertion: good grammar and coherent prose are important, because ideas matter, and words are how we express ideas. Good text is not only a joy to read, but also a clear channel for the marketplace of ideas. Incoherent sentences and jumbled spelling are neither trend-setting nor funny. They are signs that the writer either (a) is disabled, or (b) respects neither his own opinions nor his readers.

WARNING! THREADJACK IN PROGRESS!

So as a person who doesn't have english as my native tounge, I shouldn't be allowed to post on english forums as I'm more likley to make grammatical and spelling errors.

I know, this is not exactly what your saying, but it is implied (did I use the right word there?)

THREADJACK ABORTED!


Lenarior wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Here's the take-home assertion: good grammar and coherent prose are important, because ideas matter, and words are how we express ideas. Good text is not only a joy to read, but also a clear channel for the marketplace of ideas. Incoherent sentences and jumbled spelling are neither trend-setting nor funny. They are signs that the writer either (a) is disabled, or (b) respects neither his own opinions nor his readers.

WARNING! THREADJACK IN PROGRESS!

So as a person who doesn't have english as my native tounge, I shouldn't be allowed to post on english forums as I'm more likley to make grammatical and spelling errors.

I know, this is not exactly what your saying, but it is implied (did I use the right word there?)

THREADJACK ABORTED!

Not at all. Most people are happy to cut non-native-English-speakers all kinds of slack, mostly because we know we could never do as well trying to express ourselves on a forum based in another language. However, there is a difference between "I'm very well educated but this is my second (or third or fourth) language so I might make some mistakes" and "In the Future, we won't need grammar and coherent expression because computers will do our thinking for us and if you care about proper spelling and syntax, you're a bigoted old grognard." :)

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Lenarior wrote:
So as a person who doesn't have english as my native tounge, I shouldn't be allowed to post on english forums as I'm more likley to make grammatical and spelling errors.

Your post, quoted above, shows no signs of grammatical errors (though you misspelled "tongue"), so you're exempt. I think in general, especially when non-native speakers are involved, participation in the dialogue is welcomed despite language difficulties. The problem is less with one's grasp of the English language and more with their desire or ability to be understood. There are plenty of posters who do and don't speak English on a daily basis who make cogent, comprehensible contributions to the boards. There are also many who have no excuse other than that they don't care to put in the effort to spell things correctly, use proper grammar, or utilize the right versions of homophones.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Lenarior wrote:

So as a person who doesn't have English as my native tongue, I shouldn't be allowed to post on English forums as I'm more likely to make grammatical and spelling errors.

I know this is not exactly what you're saying, but it is implied (did I use the right word there?)

You did indeed, Lenarior, contrasting nicely with a number of native speakers who can't distinguish between imply and infer.

To repeat, all sorts of errors are fine on friendly messageboards. But I see an enormous difference between "I'm still learning the language," and "Tho frankly my care for grammer is long dead due to infinite opposition and the inherent lost cause so now i just play at it."

Out of curiosity, what's the scoop on gaming books in Sweden? Are the rule books in Swedish, or do players need to translate from English?

The Exchange

The other thing to note is that people (including the OP) post here, presumably, because they wish what they have written to be read by others.

If I come across a post that is as badly written as some of insaneogeddon's, I just skip it and go onto the next one. I have better things to do with my time than to try to decipher it.

This isn't intended as a dig at insaneogeddon, more to warn him that he may be speaking to an empty auditorium.


Chris Mortika wrote:
Out of curiosity, what's the scoop on gaming books in Sweden? Are the rule books in Swedish, or do players need to translate from English?

There are books in swedish, though usually these are from swedish developers. I can't even remember if I've ever seen a translated RPG product here in sweden.

The way me and my friends play we use the english books and the english terms but try to keep in-game converstations in swedish not swtiching back and forth too much. I get the feeling most swedes play this way.

Grand Lodge

Your English is better than my Swedish.

Sovereign Court

So, what language do you use for "Coup de Grace"???

Grand Lodge

It's Greek to me.

Liberty's Edge

Twowlves wrote:


So, what language do you use for "Coup de Grace"???

"Oh, great, Niles, just what we need - a fourth language!"

[/obscure Frasier reference]

Grand Lodge

A student of mine last year was raised with a 1/2 dozen African languages plus French, Portugese, Spanish and was starting English.

But he didn't know Greek!


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

This thread is hurting my brain........

Anything that does not evolve, stagnates, calcifies and dies. You can relive the past but its been done already...
(Edited for brevity)

Same. I started when Elves and Dwarves were a class. (Get off my lawn!) I got serious with 2nd edition. I'd have to agree with most of what you feel here.

As much as I loved 2nd addition, I have to admit that you needed some SERIOUS houseruling in 2nd to make it fun (or even playable at times). Going into a new group you needed a 3 inch thick 3 ring binder to gather the rules up.

Pathfinder is on the right track to bring the fun back into the game. 3.5 was good, but there were some changes that were just "ok". In my little group the only complain from the oldheads is multiclassing was better back in 2.0.

And for the record... THAC0 BAD! BAD!


brock wrote:

The other thing to note is that people (including the OP) post here, presumably, because they wish what they have written to be read by others.

If I come across a post that is as badly written as some of insaneogeddon's, I just skip it and go onto the next one. I have better things to do with my time than to try to decipher it.

This isn't intended as a dig at insaneogeddon, more to warn him that he may be speaking to an empty auditorium.

No worries mate.

Plenty of people judge books by their covers. If my writing needs such active efforts to decipher then it doesn't worry me if my posts are skipped as I doubt they would be appreciated.

A line needs be drawn between corporate and academic worlds. A line should also be drawn between ‘hands on academia’ and ‘hands off academia’. When you’re in the hands off academic world grammar can seem like life and a good platform upon which to flout your perceived supremacy in non academic surrounds. Once you’re actively saving lives/building things/held to deadlines beyond 'peer review' it becomes less relevant tho often still held as a pleasant higher ground. In the corporate world (in most circles) it in no way hinders you and indeed can hamper you sticking to your guns and correcting things the mobley masses care little for. It’s like going to a bar and talking morality or health.
Granted as the hobby does tend to attract the ‘hands off academic’ types be they academic on paper or not its poor form of me to bother replying perhaps. I am with the choir on this one I just don’t have the passion, care, time or voice to sing anymore .. cue your violins, leave me to my band.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

As far as I'm concerned, using good grammar IS important when it comes to conversing in a written medium such as these boards. Saying that grammar doesn't matter when someone's trying to communicate via writing is the same as saying that it's okay for someone to mumble or mispronounce words or speak in different languages in verbal communication.

Grammar and spelling are there to AID communication. They're not optional parts of communication. Just as I get frustrated, for example, listening to super-heavilly-accented customer service representatives or talking on the phone with people when there's a lot of static or trying to converse with a 2-year-old kid who only knows a few words... it's frustrating trying to decipher increasingly poorly written messageboard posts.


James Jacobs wrote:
Grammer and spelling...

Clears throat discretely.


Khezial Tahr wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

This thread is hurting my brain........

Anything that does not evolve, stagnates, calcifies and dies. You can relive the past but its been done already...
(Edited for brevity)

Same. I started when Elves and Dwarves were a class. (Get off my lawn!) I got serious with 2nd edition. I'd have to agree with most of what you feel here.

As much as I loved 2nd addition, I have to admit that you needed some SERIOUS houseruling in 2nd to make it fun (or even playable at times). Going into a new group you needed a 3 inch thick 3 ring binder to gather the rules up.

Pathfinder is on the right track to bring the fun back into the game. 3.5 was good, but there were some changes that were just "ok". In my little group the only complain from the oldheads is multiclassing was better back in 2.0.

And for the record... THAC0 BAD! BAD!

I'm actually playing in a 1st edition game being run by a man who played it when it was new. When he asked me to join I said "I don't know, I'm not very good with THAC0." He laughed and said "There's no THAC0." So, I joined and in that game I miss THAC0.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Professor Higgins wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Grammer and spelling...
Clears throat discretely.

Exactly! (Typo fixed in my post.)


James Jacobs wrote:
Professor Higgins wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Grammer and spelling...
Clears throat discretely.
Exactly! (Typo fixed in my post.)

It so hurt me to do that...I had to send Prof Higgins instead.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Professor Higgins wrote:


Clears throat discretely.

Clears throat discreetly.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Professor Higgins wrote:


Clears throat discretely.

Clears throat discreetly.

I will shed crocodile tears over the wrong word.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Professor Higgins wrote:
Clears throat discretely.
Clears throat discreetly.

No, I believe that was intentional. He coughed in a definitely quantized series of coughs. It sounded a bit like a square wave to me.


Oh, Shinmizu, where were you earlier? I tried and came up with nothing.


This thread gave me the giggles.

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