Completed Eidolon & Feedback / Question


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


I figure I'd post my Eidolon here for consumption by the masses. I'm sure there are some things that are wrong here, so please let me know!

Infernal Eidolon
LE large Outsider (serpentine body)
Init +5; Senses Perception +9, Darkvision

Defenses
AC 27, touch 15, flat-footed 21 (+12 natural, +5 dex, +1 dodge, -1 size)
hp 85 (9d10+50)
Fort +7, Ref +11, Will +6 (+10 vs. enchantment)
SQ Evasion, Link, Share Spells,

Offense
Speed 20 ft. climb 20ft
Reach 10ft
Melee +15/+10 bite (2d6+7 +1d6 cold + poison), +10 tail slap (1d8+3 + 1d6 cold + Grab)

Constrict An eidolon gains powerful muscles that allow it to crush those it grapples. Whenever the eidolon successfully grapples a foe using the grab evolution, it deals additional damage equal to the amount of damage dealt by the attack used by the grab evolution (1d8+3). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the serpentine base form.

Eidolon Poison
type poison (injury); save Fort Negates (DC 21); frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; Effect 1d4 str; cure 1 save.

Statistics
Str 24, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 12
Base Atk +9; CMB +17 (+21 when grappling); CMD 23
Feats Ability Focus (Poison), Vital Strike, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes
Skills 36 Acrobatics+14, Escape Arist+14, Intimidate+10, Perception+9, Stealth+14, Sense Motive+9,

Evolutions (14pts) +2 Dext <2>, Constrict <2>, Energy Attack Cold <2>, Grab <2>, Poison <2>, Large <3>, Improved Damage Bite <1>

Some questions / comments below...

1) What is the limitation on giving an Eidolon Monster Feats? In the above example I did something tame like giving it the Ability Focus Feat, but would Improved Damage (an Evolution) stack with Improved Natural Attack (a feat). The same goes with Natural armor feats...

2) The Multiattack ability (not feat) seems awkwardly worded. There's no reference to which attack can be made at a -5 penalty, and there's no mention of suffering a half strength bonus. Is this intentional?

3) Making a creature large gives it several abilities normally not associated with such creatures (+2 AC for example). The wording here is very specific on what the Eidolon gets, but there's no reference to Reach. Does an Eidolon need to have the reach evolution to get 10ft reach as a large creature?


2) If i'm not wrong, each attack other than that you choose as "primary" is a "secondary attack" that suffer the -5 penality and half strength bonus

Dark Archive

Nymor wrote:
2) If i'm not wrong, each attack other than that you choose as "primary" is a "secondary attack" that suffer the -5 penality and half strength bonus

Correct. All secondary attacks are at -5 and only add 1/2 str. All primary attacks add full strength and have full bab. the only exception is if you only have 1 attack and it is a primary attack. In which case you add 1-1/2 str bonus to your damage.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
Nymor wrote:
2) If i'm not wrong, each attack other than that you choose as "primary" is a "secondary attack" that suffer the -5 penality and half strength bonus
Correct. All secondary attacks are at -5 and only add 1/2 str. All primary attacks add full strength and have full bab. the only exception is if you only have 1 attack and it is a primary attack. In which case you add 1-1/2 str bonus to your damage.

True, for monsters at least. However the Multiattack Eidolon ability states...

Quote:
Multiattack: An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks), the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.

While the -5 is mentioned there is no reference to half strength. My question is if this is an oversight or not.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
Nymor wrote:
2) If i'm not wrong, each attack other than that you choose as "primary" is a "secondary attack" that suffer the -5 penality and half strength bonus
Correct. All secondary attacks are at -5 and only add 1/2 str. All primary attacks add full strength and have full bab. the only exception is if you only have 1 attack and it is a primary attack. In which case you add 1-1/2 str bonus to your damage.

NOT correct. Any attack noted as being a primary attack is a primary attack. Any attack noted as being a secondary attack is a secondary attack. There is no limit on the number of primary attack forms a creature can have any more. As an example, look at the dragons in the bestiary: bite AND claws are primary, while wings and tail slaps are secondary.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Draeke Raefel wrote:
Nymor wrote:
2) If i'm not wrong, each attack other than that you choose as "primary" is a "secondary attack" that suffer the -5 penality and half strength bonus
Correct. All secondary attacks are at -5 and only add 1/2 str. All primary attacks add full strength and have full bab. the only exception is if you only have 1 attack and it is a primary attack. In which case you add 1-1/2 str bonus to your damage.

It would seem that the initial attack for each base creature (except the tail slap) is the primary attack or attacks (in the case of claws). Any additional attack you add via evolutions is a secondary attack i believe.


Kolokotroni wrote:
It would seem that the initial attack for each base creature (except the tail slap) is the primary attack or attacks (in the case of claws). Any additional attack you add via evolutions is a secondary attack i believe.

Negative, sir. The various evolutions actually state whether they are primary or secondary attacks, and the new rules regarding natural attacks (i.e. allowing more than one primary attack) means that you have as many primary attacks as you do evolutions that state they are primary attacks.

Dark Archive

Zurai wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:
Nymor wrote:
2) If i'm not wrong, each attack other than that you choose as "primary" is a "secondary attack" that suffer the -5 penality and half strength bonus
Correct. All secondary attacks are at -5 and only add 1/2 str. All primary attacks add full strength and have full bab. the only exception is if you only have 1 attack and it is a primary attack. In which case you add 1-1/2 str bonus to your damage.
NOT correct. Any attack noted as being a primary attack is a primary attack. Any attack noted as being a secondary attack is a secondary attack. There is no limit on the number of primary attack forms a creature can have any more. As an example, look at the dragons in the bestiary: bite AND claws are primary, while wings and tail slaps are secondary.

Umm.. What about my my statement was incorrect? i did not limit the number of primary attacks given to the creature. I simply stated that if you only have 1 primary attack and no secondary attacks you add 1-1/2 your strength bonus to the attack.

EDIT: NVM. I did not catch that the poster I quoted stated you had to choose a primary and secondary attack. I thought that since each attack specified whether it was primary or secondary, that that wouldn't be a cause for confusion. Sorry about that. Looks like I need to read other peoples posts more carefully :)


I think the wording of primary/secondary attacks is pretty well written up for the eidolons, my confusion just stems from the Multiattack ability. When you have less than 3 attacks, it states that you can make a 'second' (not secondary) attack at a -5 penalty with any of your existing natural attacks. So...

1) Does it mean I can pick a primary or secondary attack?
2) Do I get half strength on this attack or just -5?
3) If I use this second attack with a Secondary Weapon, would it be at -10 (Penalty from ability plus Secondary Natural Attack penalty)?

I guess what really is at the core of my question, does the multiattack ability treat the additional attack as a secondary natural attack, or just a second attack with that weapon? There's a difference there. :)

Dark Archive

Rugult wrote:

I think the wording of primary/secondary attacks is pretty well written up for the eidolons, my confusion just stems from the Multiattack ability. When you have less than 3 attacks, it states that you can make a 'second' (not secondary) attack at a -5 penalty with any of your existing natural attacks. So...

1) Does it mean I can pick a primary or secondary attack?
2) Do I get half strength on this attack or just -5?
3) If I use this second attack with a Secondary Weapon, would it be at -10 (Penalty from ability plus Secondary Natural Attack penalty)?

I guess what really is at the core of my question, does the multiattack ability treat the additional attack as a secondary natural attack, or just a second attack with that weapon? There's a difference there. :)

It would count as whatever type the natural attack normally is. I.e. if you normally only have 1 secondary attack, then you get a second secondary attack at -5( total -10 ). If your only natural attack is a primary attack, you get a second primary attack at -5.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
It would count as whatever type the natural attack normally is. I.e. if you normally only have 1 secondary attack, then you get a second secondary attack at -5( total -10 ). If your only natural attack is a primary attack, you get a second primary attack at -5.

Ok, that makes sense and how I would rule it as well.

Now I wonder how these stack with monster feats! :)


Quote:

If it does not have the requisite 3 or more

natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks),
the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its
natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.

The text seems pretty clear to me. You pick one of the natural attacks and get a second attack at -5, just as with iterative attacks normally.

To use Rugult's creature above, you would start with

+15 bite and +10 tail slap

and then pick either the bite or the tail slap to gain an additional attack. This would give you one of the following:

+15/+10 bite and +10 tail slap
+15 bite and +10/+5 tail slap

In some cases, it would be more advantageous to pick a secondary attack if it had a poison or grab associated with it.

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Advanced Player's Guide Playtest / Round 2: Summoner and Witch / Completed Eidolon & Feedback / Question All Messageboards
Recent threads in Round 2: Summoner and Witch