What happened to the Black Guard? It wasn't put back in the core book and I'm curious as to why that might have been. A lot of the PrCs got some pretty well done overhauls with a variety of new abilities that really hit home for their roles and the Black Guard could have really benefited from that kind of love.
Is it because they're black? Because they're guards? What's the deal? Is it because they're confused little rogue/fighter/paladin wannabes?
Evil paladins will be an alt paladin build in the upcoming APG. Called the anti-paladin
Are they gon' have like their own public service announcements and campaign? Like the whole 'Anti-Drug' thing?
"I slaughter the innocent and take from the needy everyday after school."
"Sick depravity! What's your anti-paladin?"
See, I don't think they should be called 'Anti-Paladins'. The name is just flat out dumb. You don't call an evil ranger an 'anti-ranger' or a good rogue an 'anti-assassin'.
Although in essence the Blackguard is an 'anti-paladin', and we all know this, at least 'Blackguard' is a given title or form address. It gives the class a place, in my opinion, within the world or hierarchy of evil.
On a battlefield I think:
"My Lord, the horde advances and we've discovered that a Blackguard leads them."
Is better than:
"My Lord, the horde advances and we've discovered that an anti-paladin leads them."
"I'm sorry... a what?"
"An anti-paladin, my Lord."
"Anti-Paladin!?!? Of all the grand flipping titles in this cosmos the best we could come up with is 'Anti-Paladin'? Why not Black Knights, or Dark Reavers, or Shadowspawn Warriors, hell I'd settle for meeting Gus The Very Bad Man on the battle field before I'd ride out to challenge an 'Anti-Paladin'... I mean really, anti? Anti what? So they oppose paladins? Big deal! We didn't bring any! Screw this, saddle my horse and give me my dice. I'll not take part in this foolishness."
I agree with the name, sounds so corny, but it's gonna stay it seems. They will be LG=paladins, CE= Anti-paladins LN-CG=templers
will see how they look when all is said and done. But they took the PRC out as they thought it should be a full class not a PRC
Since Templars are neither Paladins or Anti Paladins shouldn't they be 'Sorta Between Paladins n' Anti-Paladins'?
I mean, why give the Templars an official title but not the evil Paladins? I hate to bash, because seriously PFRPG is awesome, but seriously... did they put any thought into this at all?
Ugh, they'll be renamed in my game, rest assured. "Big-Meany-Faces" is better than 'Anti-Paladin' IMO.
I have no clue, but templar is anything between LG and CE, so I am guessing LE or NE will fall into that as well. Anti-paladins seem aimed at CE only
It was felt that the ol' blaggerds should be the same type of class as a paladin.
I'd like to see the PF version of it.
It was felt that the ol' blaggerds should be the same type of class as a paladin.
I'd like to see the PF version of it.
It turned out that I liked that so much I went and made one myself - or started one.
I tried to make it feel pathfindery.
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Although I tend to agree that anti-paladin is a bit lacking as a name I think the reason it is still used is due to nostalgia. Anti-paladin was a term used as far back at First Edition (when it was simply AD&D ... ahh, the good old days :) ). In fact, I think there was an Anti-Paladin in a very early issue of Dragon (or The Dragon as it was known back in the day)
I'm not saying it is a GOOD reason, but I think it probably is THE reason.
While we are on the subject ... do we actually have confirmation that this variant class will actually be called an 'Anti-Paladin' or has it simply been said there will be an anti-paladin type in the book? I think it is an important distinction.
Creative Director
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There's two reasons we're sticking with antipaladin at this point.
1) Nostalgia.
2) By calling the 20-level base class variant an antipaladin, we don't obsolete the blackguard prestige class from 3.5. We're full aware of the fact that some gamers will prefer the prestige class approach to the concept, and by calling our variant CE paladin an antipaladin, we don't "overwrite" the 3.5 blackguard prestige class. We won't have it as a prestige class between the covers of the book, but in home games, folks'll be able to continue using the blackguard as a prestige class without confusing matters.
In any event, that part of the book has yet to be written, so it might still change depending on how things work out. I, for one, like the name "antipaladin."
I'm with the OP. Not purposely trying to invoke religion, but it's like the BBEG going around coining himself 'antichrist' as a titular proper noun. I can see where others may call this class an antipaladin as an epithet / pejorative, but the BBEG would probably be recognized by a more proper sounding class name.
Otherwise, we might as well go back to calling the Rogue a Thief. Nostalgia and all. ;-)
Since Templars are neither Paladins or Anti Paladins ...*snip*...
I'd say we should call them peanuts, since they're neither... well, I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.
Or Nidalaps, but all this palindroming will make me pine for the fjords.
I guess if they multiclassed with bards, they'd be Nidalap Dancers? Ok, I'm stopping now.
You call it dancing; I call it my kata form. This blackguard has a black belt, you know. ;')
I'm with the OP. Not purposely trying to invoke religion, but it's like the BBEG going around coining himself 'antichrist' as a titular proper noun.
Not purposely trying to continue to invoke religion, but the Anticrist has worked as a villain for thousands of years now. Obviously there's something to that concept :P
Not purposely trying to continue to invoke religion, but the Anticrist has worked as a villain for thousands of years now. Obviously there's something to that concept :P
Yeah, it's a great epithet fear tactic. Look at Crowley as an example. He used To Mega Therion, which has a better spin.
I guess I have just never assumed class names need to have any relation to what characters call themselves in-game. Antipaladin is a game term, and a useful, descriptive one. In game, just one is more likely to be called Aurauk the B@st3rd than Aurauk the Antipaladin. And a group is likely to be the Black Paladins (a term from my games), or the Order of Anarchy, or the Reavers.
I guess I have just never assumed class names need to have any relation to what characters call themselves in-game. Antipaladin is a game term, and a useful, descriptive one. In game, just one is more likely to be called Aurauk the B@st3rd than Aurauk the Antipaladin. And a group is likely to be the Black Paladins (a term from my games), or the Order of Anarchy, or the Reavers.
I agree. Antipaladin isn't a great title, but think about it: Rogue.
"I'm not a thief, I'm a treasure hunter!"
"Rogue? Nah, I'm an expert at everything."
"Swashbuckling is my name, stabbing is my game."
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Are they gon' have like their own public service announcements and campaign? Like the whole 'Anti-Drug' thing?
"I slaughter the innocent and take from the needy everyday after school."
"Sick depravity! What's your anti-paladin?"
See, I don't think they should be called 'Anti-Paladins'. The name is just flat out dumb. You don't call an evil ranger an 'anti-ranger' or a good rogue an 'anti-assassin'.
Although in essence the Blackguard is an 'anti-paladin', and we all know this, at least 'Blackguard' is a given title or form address. It gives the class a place, in my opinion, within the world or hierarchy of evil.
On a battlefield I think:
"My Lord, the horde advances and we've discovered that a Blackguard leads them."
Is better than:
"My Lord, the horde advances and we've discovered that an anti-paladin leads them."
"I'm sorry... a what?"
"An anti-paladin, my Lord."
"Anti-Paladin!?!? Of all the grand flipping titles in this cosmos the best we could come up with is 'Anti-Paladin'? Why not Black Knights, or Dark Reavers, or Shadowspawn Warriors, hell I'd settle for meeting Gus The Very Bad Man on the battle field before I'd ride out to challenge an 'Anti-Paladin'... I mean really, anti? Anti what? So they oppose paladins? Big deal! We didn't bring any! Screw this, saddle my horse and give me my dice. I'll not take part in this foolishness."
Just a small History lesson, the Anti-paladin's been around since 1st edition, Dragon issue #39 to be exact. I for one am happy to see it back because it means Paizo still respects the 30+ years of tradition and history built up around our favorite game... as opposed to throwing the baby out with the bathwater like another version of the game we know.
--Jingle Bell Vrock!
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Are they gon' have like their own public service announcements and campaign? Like the whole 'Anti-Drug' thing?
"I slaughter the innocent and take from the needy everyday after school."
"Sick depravity! What's your anti-paladin?"
See, I don't think they should be called 'Anti-Paladins'. The name is just flat out dumb. You don't call an evil ranger an 'anti-ranger' or a good rogue an 'anti-assassin'.
Although in essence the Blackguard is an 'anti-paladin', and we all know this, at least 'Blackguard' is a given title or form address. It gives the class a place, in my opinion, within the world or hierarchy of evil.
On a battlefield I think:
"My Lord, the horde advances and we've discovered that a Blackguard leads them."
Is better than:
"My Lord, the horde advances and we've discovered that an anti-paladin leads them."
"I'm sorry... a what?"
"An anti-paladin, my Lord."
"Anti-Paladin!?!? Of all the grand flipping titles in this cosmos the best we could come up with is 'Anti-Paladin'? Why not Black Knights, or Dark Reavers, or Shadowspawn Warriors, hell I'd settle for meeting Gus The Very Bad Man on the battle field before I'd ride out to challenge an 'Anti-Paladin'... I mean really, anti? Anti what? So they oppose paladins? Big deal! We didn't bring any! Screw this, saddle my horse and give me my dice. I'll not take part in this foolishness."
I too agree with this. I mean think about this scene from training an anti-paladin:
"And now young [insert name] I will initiate you in the dreadful mysteries of the ANTI-PALADIN!"
It really sounds lame to me and unimaginative to use in any campaign.
I mean I respect the game's history and all, but nevertheless if Paizo sticks with their decision I will have to figure out another name to use this class in my campaign...
I'm also pretty sure that none of my players will be interested in playing an "anti-class" of anything for that matter..
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I am a fan of the anti-paladin concept, but not the name.
I get that the term anti-paladin has a lot of history, but even back in the glory days of 1st edition, I was not a big fan of the name anti-paladin. I am hoping that James and team thinks up a better name.
Is it really any different than using the term Anti-hero? It's been pretty popular for a while now. I mean it's no worse than the Blackguard... and most people I've heard use that name don't even say it correctly!
--Vrocking around the Christmas Tree
I've been around for the 30 year history myself.
I'm ambivalent about the name actually; but for what it's worth, it always made me think of "antichrist".
Which was also sounded kinda clunky when I first heard it.
The name itself is pretty stupid sounding in all honesty.
BUT, I don't believe the character would use the term. I don't believe that any of the iconics would address themselves as being their class (though IMHO seoni can call her self whatever she likes).
so while it sounds stupid, the characters don't use the word themselves, so for all intents and purposes the name is perfectly useful to describe the class.
Batts
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Then again, few people think of themselves as evil. My LE character Shadrach never called himself 'evil'. Driven, goal focused, willing to roll the hard 6, but never 'evil'. He would be offended if you called him that.
And a blackguard always struck me as an Errol Flynn term, "Coward! Vile fiend! That blackguard, Prince John!"
Anti-paladin makes sense in that way. "He is opposed to everything you believe in. Where you bring light, he seeks to snuff it out. Where you heal, he brings plauge and death. Where you bring enlightenment and order he brings ignorance and chaos."
"What is he, master?"
"He's had many names down through the ages, we raise one order, he brings another. Cathari, Oborbours, other names we darn not speak, lest we give them power. We just refer to him as the adversary, and his followers as anti-paladins."
Or from the other side.
"They restrain us with their laws! Force us to build for the weak, rather than the weak serve us! They refuse to recognize the order of the world, that the strong will consume the weak! They call themselves Paladins? Then we will destroy them, crush them in their crumbling palaces and choke them under their own cloying mercy. We are their nemisis! If they are Paladins, then we are against everything they stand for. We are anti-paladins!"
Aren't they in Scotland?
Oh, that's the Black Watch. Never mind.
We have the Black Dow too here in the dour north...
I vote call it Black Dow!!!
I for one agree that the term Anti-Paladin is something best left buried in the seventies. Nostalgia or not. However, if the name Blackguard is saved up for a prestige class, then other more appropriate names could apply to the almost Monty Python-funny Anti-Paladin. If there's a huge need to "Rincewind"-up the class one could let it stand.
On the other hand, a name change is an easy task for a DM, so it is not exactly the end of the world.
Dark Knight, Scourge, Hell Knight, Destroyer, Kinslayer, Vindicator, Death Knight, ...
Just pick one, and be happy. :)
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2) By calling the 20-level base class variant an antipaladin, we don't obsolete the blackguard prestige class from 3.5. We're full aware of the fact that some gamers will prefer the prestige class approach to the concept, and by calling our variant CE paladin an antipaladin, we don't "overwrite" the 3.5 blackguard prestige class. We won't have it as a prestige class between the covers of the book, but in home games, folks'll be able to continue using the blackguard as a prestige class without confusing matters.
For a true paragon of evil, you can have an anti-paladin with levels in blackguard. :P
If a paladin and an anti-paladin strike each other, do they explode in a discharge of energy like if matter strikes anti-matter?
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I'm okay with Antipaladin. You can use it for nostalgia's sake, or ignore it for a more in-world appropriate name if you want.
Personally, I'm glad that Paizo is not using Blackguard for their CE Paladin variant in the APG. Leaves me (or others) room to convert the Blackguard as a LE Paladin variant base class. (I've always liked the Paladin Variants from UA -- except for the names. I've been calling them Holy Liberator, Blackguard and Antipaladin [to borrow a few names] myself, and have been thinking about converting them to PFRPG. Probably have to rename HL. Any ideas?)
I liked the Dragon Magazine issue where they came out with 7 other paladin-style classes, one for each alignment other than LG and CE. There was a Lyon, a Paramandyr, an Illrigger, and I can't remember the other names. But I do remember that they each had distinct names; the CN version of the LN class wasn't called an 'anti-' of the LN version.
I still have a photocopy of that article on my D&D shelf. I really wish they had done a version of it from each edition. I would have loved a 3.5 illrigger :)
NG Myrikhan
CG Garath
LN Lyan
NN Paramander
CN Fantra
LE Illrigger
NE Arrikhan