Yeah I know, how often do we get to 18th level. But to get three extra castings of any 9th level spell is a bit powerful perhaps. The eidolon casts more 9th level spells than a wizard of 18th level. All for a mere six evolution points (4 pts for two ability increases and 2 pts for Spell-like ability 3/day).
Comments?
Brian
Director of Game Design
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Actually.. it costs you a total of 13 evolution points... 14 if you want to cast it 3/day. While certainly very good... that is over half your eidolon's total at that level.
That said, I am open to thoughts. I seriously considered putting in a line that required eidolon spells to have no expensive material components.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think the no expensive component would be an excellent idea. I was going to post it, but you ninja'd me.
Yeah I know, how often do we get to 18th level. But to get three extra castings of any 9th level spell is a bit powerful perhaps. The eidolon casts more 9th level spells than a wizard of 18th level. All for a mere six evolution points (4 pts for two ability increases and 2 pts for Spell-like ability 3/day).
Comments?
Brian
Agreed, that's too good, even with Jason's corrections.
Overall, I think the eidos need to be toned down. Not a lot, but comparing a fourth-level eidolion to my party's main DPS (an only-somewhat-optimized, two-weapon fighting, fourth-level tengu ranger), the eido comes out even or on top, depending on the angle you look at it from. And that doesn't account for the actual summoner himself. It's a little bit too powerful of a class, I think.
It's a fantastic class, mind you, but I really think that eidolion beastie needs it's nails clipped just a bit. The trick is going to be comparing the eidolion to equal-level melee types. He should come out a notch below them to account for the summoner's spells and abilities and for the eidolion's superior versatility.
You want wishes you'll just have to bind and bargain with genies the old fashioned way, highly supporting the no costly material component spell likes.
This gets even kookier with Greater Aspect. You get a 2 for 1 on evolutions on yourself. Just give yourself an SLA 3/day of a 9th level spell.
I agree, as of now no costly component seems the best option.
Brian
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Director of Game Design
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This gets even kookier with Greater Aspect. You get a 2 for 1 on evolutions on yourself. Just give yourself an SLA 3/day of a 9th level spell.
I agree, as of now no costly component seems the best option.
Brian
Does not work... the SLA cost 1 point per level of the spell. +1 if you want to cast it 3/day.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
This gets even kookier with Greater Aspect. You get a 2 for 1 on evolutions on yourself. Just give yourself an SLA 3/day of a 9th level spell.
I agree, as of now no costly component seems the best option.
Brian
Does not work... the SLA cost 1 point per level of the spell. +1 if you want to cast it 3/day.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
"This spell-like ability costs a number of evolution points
equal to the spell’s level (minimum 1)."That's what I get for jumping in after a 12 hour shift. I completely missed this line. My bad!
Brian
I agree, as of now no costly component seems the best option.
Or just require the summoner to pay any costly material components that the spell normally requires.
How did you get it to cast Wish?
Edit:Nevermind I got it.
I'd say that the summoner should just need to provide any costly material components just as they would if they wanted a genie to cast wish. A simple answer to a simple problem.
This. It's so simple! :)
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From my calculations the cost would be
Cha 11 base (+4 from level increases) = 15
+2 evolution to increase charisma by +2 (17)
+2 evolution to increase charisma by +2 at 6th level (19 minimum needed for 9th level sorcerer spell)
Spell-like ability +9 for a 9th level spell 1/day +10 for 3 times per day.
Now I see 2 ways of curbing this.
1st I would consider limiting the choice to the summoners spell list instead of sorcerer or wizard. this reduces the cost to 8 or 9 for a 6th level summoner spell. The downside here is your opening up 9th level spells for the cost of 6th level spell slots via the summoners advanced spell list the plus side is it restricts the use of allowing spells the summoner wouldnt normally aquire (like wish).
The second idea is to limit it to spells from the wizard school and based on intelligence
The eidolon has a base Int of 7 (+4 from level increases) = 11
+2 evolution to increase intelligence by +2 (13 allowing 3rd level spells)
+2 evolution to increase intelligence by +2 at 6th level (15 allowing 5th level spells)
+2 evolution to increase intelligence by +2 at 12th level (17 allowing 1th level spells)
+2 evolution to increase intelligence by +2 at 18th level (19 allowing 9th level spells)
Spell-like ability +9 for a 9th level spell 1/day +10 for 3 times per day.
Either way I would consider increasing the cost of spell-like ability to 2 points per spell level (1 for 0 level spells) and doubling the evolution cost to allow the spell can be cast three times per day (or at will if the spell is a 0-level spell).
This increases the cost to 18 for a 9th level spell once per day and only makes 5th level spells possible for 3 times per day (20+ 0 to 4 evolutions to get the required ability score depending on which system you use.)
This way at least its possible to have wish once per day but thats all the eidolon will be able to do. (at least until its cast wish a few times for other abilities :))
EDIT: Which reminds me, if the summoner is a spontaneous caster he should gain eschew materials as a bonus feat at 1st level. Unless it's a balance issue.
Eschew Materials as a bonus feat isn't a property of spontaneous casters, it's a property of Sorcerers. There are currently 4 Pathfinder spontaneous casters (Bard, Sorcerer, Oracle, Summoner), and only 1 of those classes gets Eschew for free.
I see no problem with a summoner having wish at 18th lvl. If he wants that badly to have this spell to the point that he would sacrifice most of the power of the core ability of the class, why not? Besides, not everyone has infinite money to cast lots of wishes...
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EDIT: Which reminds me, if the summoner is a spontaneous caster he should gain eschew materials as a bonus feat at 1st level. Unless it's a balance issue.Eschew Materials as a bonus feat isn't a property of spontaneous casters, it's a property of Sorcerers. There are currently 4 Pathfinder spontaneous casters (Bard, Sorcerer, Oracle, Summoner), and only 1 of those classes gets Eschew for free.
I stand corrected. Though Jason did mention in one of the Oracle threads that he was thinking of giving the Oracle Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level.
I don't think the Eidolon could get the Wish SLA for use for his summoner at all.
See the Eidolon counts as a summoned creature (as per the summoner discription) and summoned creatures can't use SLA for spells that have costly components, as per the summoned spell description in the magic section of the pathfinder book.
I don't think the Eidolon could get the Wish SLA for use for his summoner at all.
See the Eidolon counts as a summoned creature (as per the summoner discription) and summoned creatures can't use SLA for spells that have costly components, as per the summoned spell description in the magic section of the pathfinder book.
Where is this stated at? I am only asking because I have seen it stated in several post, but I can't find it. Is it in the bestiary instead?
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure
another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel
abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that
cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot
use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive
material components (such as wish).
It's in the summon monster I description.
It's in the summon monster I description.A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure
another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel
abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that
cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot
use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive
material components (such as wish).
Thanks. I never would have found it.
No problem. Funny thing, I don't think it applies to the eidolon. The text for the eidolon never actually refers to the summon monster spells. Regardless, I think it would be a good bit of text to include. In fact, I would suggest moving this little bit to the summoning text in the magic chapter.
No problem. Funny thing, I don't think it applies to the eidolon. The text for the eidolon never actually refers to the summon monster spells. Regardless, I think it would be a good bit of text to include. In fact, I would suggest moving this little bit to the summoning text in the magic chapter.
From the PDF:
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
Now if they were called creatures that would be different. I don't know if this is coincidence or by design, but I think it should stay that way.
From the PDF:
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
Now if they were called creatures that would be different. I don't know if this is coincidence or by design, but I think it should stay that way.
I know this, but the summoned creatures text doesn't include the above text, that is only in the summon monster I text. The Eidolon is treated as a summoned monster, but is not summoned via summon monster.
Instead of not allowing it, why not just a line requiring the Summoner to provide all costly material components and foci?
-S
I'd prefer the first option really. You want a wish caster, get a sorcerer or wizard in your party, the Eidolon's focus is for COMBAT.I agree. either not allow spells which could not be cast with eschew materials or require the summoner to come up with the materials.
EDIT: Which reminds me, if the summoner is a spontaneous caster he should gain eschew materials as a bonus feat at 1st level. Unless it's a balance issue.
I agree that seems how the Eidolon is currently being promoted as.
But what if you want a more sneaky thief-like Eidolon that helps you pilfer gold and trinkets?
Or a bit of a minor blaster to supplement your menagerie of summons?
Of course the optimized version of the Eidolon is geared towards a melee champion/protector/body guard. But there are a wealth of role play opportunities to be had with this class. Why pigeonhole it into the brute/tank?
That's my 2 copper.
Brian
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I know this, but the summoned creatures text doesn't include the above text, that is only in the summon monster I text. The Eidolon is treated as a summoned monster, but is not summoned via summon monster.
Keep in mind that it's already been established that the eidolon isn't treated like most summoned monsters. For example, Augment Summoning doesn't apply to the eidolon. Likewise summoned monsters can't use teleport abilities, but the summoner and eidolon have teleport abilities. It might actually be best to assume that the text on summoned monsters doesn't actually apply to the eidolon unless mentioned in the eidolon description.
As far as SLAs go, any with expensive components should require the summoner to provide them. Wish as a SLA isn't such a big deal if it costs cash, but free wishes are not a good idea.
Keep in mind that it's already been established that the eidolon isn't treated like most summoned monsters. For example, Augment Summoning doesn't apply to the eidolon.
That's only because Augment Summoning only applies to monsters summoned by spells, specifically. The Eidolon is summoned with a supernatural ability, not a spell or spell-like, so Augment Summoning does not apply.
Likewise summoned monsters can't use teleport abilities, but the summoner and eidolon have teleport abilities.
Again, not really true. Monsters summoned through summon monster/nature's ally, specifically, cannot use teleport or planar travel abilities. Monsters summoned any other way can. Also, the Eidolon does not have any teleport abilities in and of itself -- Master's Call and Transpose are both abilities of the Summoner that happen to affect the Eidolon.
The only Summoned Monster rules the Eidolon is subject to are the ones under the Summoning subschool of Conjuration magic, page 210 of the Core Rulebook, with the exceptions noted in the Eidolon entry in the Summoner class rules.