I am a little concerned about the summoning ability given to the summoner. It makes sense that they are the best at summoning, but the minute/level summoning just seems really powerful.
Part of this is probably due to playstyle, but my group never really rests in dungeons and at mid-levels, before summoning becomes weaker a 9 minute summon can be abused if the party prepares.
Imagine that the party knows it is about to enter a dangerous room. The summoner can cast summon monster X the max # of times and at lower levels when they're powerful, they will last for all if not most of the fight.
Having said that, the class is a summoner, so I was thinking that the summoner should be toned down at lower levels to compensate for the more powerful summoning abilities (normally balanced by extremely low durations) that weaken at higher levels.
I'm a little concerned about summoner power at the lowest levels. A 1st level summoner gets 2-3 first level spells/ day, decent hit points, and can cast summon monster I for 1 minute/ level 4-6 times per day. That's a lot more casting power than a typical sorcerer or wizard gets plus the summoner gets his Eidolon which is also powerful.
For most part agree with OP, I too run/play in games where consecutive fights with no downtime are common. Multiplying a spells duration by ten fold in this case makes it the equivalent of being able to cast the spell ten times. And the ability to cast your highest level spell over 30+cha mod *10 times per day is kinda crazy. Given, it's all situational, and if you run those kinda of games I'd just recommend house ruling the duration down.
I was amazed when I read they could cast it as a standard actions, hehe.
As far as offense, they have an Eidolon, enough said.
I have to agree here. I think the Summon Monster SLAs are pushing it, especially with the standard action casting. Realistically, they should probably just be bonus spells known, and that's it. MAYBE reduce the casting time to a standard action at 7th level or so. But the SLAs are just way too numerous, and are unnecessary with the sheer awesome (and I do mean awesome, not brokenness) that is the eidolon.
I was amazed when I read they could cast it as a standard actions, hehe.
As far as offense, they have an Eidolon, enough said.
This.
I wouldn't nix the minute-per-level duration, I actually like that, I would just restrict the number of summoned monsters that a summoner can call at any one time to maybe one, then possibly up to three or so at a time at higher levels.
I wouldn't nix the minute-per-level duration, I actually like that, I would just restrict the number of summoned monsters that a summoner can call at any one time to maybe one, then possibly up to three or so at a time at higher levels.
Personally kind of torn, but agree that there are other fixes I wouldn't have much problems with.
As a gm I'd definitely prefer to keep players to a one pet limit, summoner already has an eidolon, but that's more because my play groups complete ineptness in the math department and every pet literally exponentially increases the time it takes to complete a turn.As a player, I use summon monster and the durations are too short for the out of combat situations they really excel at. I really liked the standard action cast times for the summoners, I think my happy medium would be free as bonus spells, auto extend, and standard action to cast. But it really just depends on play group for this kind of ability.
I think my happy medium would be free as bonus spells, auto extend, and standard action to cast. But it really just depends on play group for this kind of ability.
THIS. Spread out the extras (standard action at 4th or 5th, auto-extend at 9th), and I think this is what it should be.
To be honest, I love the SLA... but I think it should perhaps be less than 1 minute per level. I do like that it's longer than normal so the summoner can use it at low levels but 1 minute per level is a bit much.
Maybe 1 minute plus 1 round/ level?
I think my happy medium would be free as bonus spells, auto extend, and standard action to cast. But it really just depends on play group for this kind of ability.THIS. Spread out the extras (standard action at 4th or 5th, auto-extend at 9th), and I think this is what it should be.
This is backwards, you don't NEED auto extend at 9th, you need it at 1st level.
To be honest, I love the SLA... but I think it should perhaps be less than 1 minute per level.
Agreed. Love the SLA. They are THE SUMMONER Class after all. And they have a rather limited spell selection as far as offense. Their Summons, including Eiddie, are their offense.
I would go for a reduced duration, or a staggered increase perhaps.
Brian
Honestly, it wouldn't bother me one whit if the Summoner lost all the summon monster spells and SLAs completely. I said as much in the speculation thread. I'd change the SLA to be "you may only have one active use of this ability at any given time" or similar language, so it can't be front-loaded as the original poster describes.
Maybe it is okay because the summoner class is supposed to be the best at summoning.
Therefore, I would keep the really powerful summon monster SLA but drop summoners to bad BAB and no armor.
The summoning ability is really powerful and if the summoner runs out of spells an SLAs at lowish levels, he/she is abusing the summoning ability in any case. This would mean that the summoner must use the summoning ability with caution at lower levels for fear of being left with nothing useful to do.
I would also push back spell advancement at early levels. Maybe only zero per day at 1st level because the summoner will have a strong pet and 6 or 7 minute long summon monsters
Honestly, it wouldn't bother me one whit if the Summoner lost all the summon monster spells and SLAs completely. I said as much in the speculation thread. I'd change the SLA to be "you may only have one active use of this ability at any given time" or similar language, so it can't be front-loaded as the original poster describes.
I see the need for a restriction, but only one at a time could be too few. Maybe make it one at a time at 1st level, but increase the number of instances allowable at higher levels. Or make it something like "at a given time, a summoner cannot have more monsters summoned than his Charisma modifier". This is still a lot, but it's not so bad if the eidolon counts against this limit.
Honestly, I think this ability needs to go.
Giving them this ability majorly steps on the toes of the Conjurer, by making them better at the Conjurer's schtick than they are (I know conjurers also get the other wizard spells, but nobody should get to be better at your thing than you are). name or not, this class is about the eidolon, not summon monster spells, and they've already got those spells at an accelerated progression on their list. It pigeonholes summoners in a way that may not be appropriate (If I'm all about fluffy, the flying snakehorror from beyond, I'm not sure calling demons or celestial dinosaurs is neccessarily related).
Instead, why not give summoners the ability to pick a few bonus spells from the wizard/sorc list? If not the whole list, maybe we could limit them to a few schools. I'd much rather see the class get a little more flexibility.
Instead, why not give summoners the ability to pick a few bonus spells from the wizard/sorc list? If not the whole list, maybe we could limit them to a few schools. I'd much rather see the class get a little more flexibility.
How about instead, you can get your eidolon to take the form of any creature from the Summon Monster lists, losing all of its normal traits for a short period, and can summon your eidolon more often.
Personally, i wish that the eidolon could have a short list of "forms", like that you could learn more as he grows, and add more points to each one as you level. perhaps each with a progressively lower Evolution point value.
Like:
Form one has x points
then you learn form two at x points, and form one is x points +5
then form three at x points, form two at x + 5, and form one at x +10
or something.
The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced Velderan is correct on this one. I do think that the summoner should get the summon monster spells as bonus spells known, but I'm not so sure it should be getting all kinds of bonuses with them. But in the end, this is all about the Eidolon, or at least it should be.
@Atlatl: Considering the Charisma the summoner is likely to have, that's not much of a limit at all past 6th or 7th level anyway. You'll hit a point where the reason you're not summoning more isn't that you can't but that it's not worth the complication rather quickly.
@Temeryn: This is already a partial-caster class. Pushing back spells is unnecessary.
Giving them this ability majorly steps on the toes of the Conjurer, by making them better at the Conjurer's schtick than they are (I know conjurers also get the other wizard spells, but nobody should get to be better at your thing than you are).
Summoning monsters isn't the schtick of conjurers. They aren't aren't much better at it than Clerics, Oracles, or non-specialist wizards. Conjurors are decent at it, but conjurors also benefit greatly from the vast array of non-summoning Conjuration spells.
Instead, why not give summoners the ability to pick a few bonus spells from the wizard/sorc list? If not the whole list, maybe we could limit them to a few schools. I'd much rather see the class get a little more flexibility.How about instead, you can get your eidolon to take the form of any creature from the Summon Monster lists, losing all of its normal traits for a short period, and can summon your eidolon more often.
Personally, i wish that the eidolon could have a short list of "forms", like that you could learn more as he grows, and add more points to each one as you level. perhaps each with a progressively lower Evolution point value.
Like:
Form one has x points
then you learn form two at x points, and form one is x points +5
then form three at x points, form two at x + 5, and form one at x +10or something.
This is a cool idea. I also wouldn't mind giving them some kind of wildshapish ability.
Don't forget the summoning spells monster list has been toned down compared to 3.5. For 3.5 we had a home rule only 1 summon monster/nature ally spell active at a time for a player character. I think this ability is a must have for the summoner. This is a fall back must have spell if his Eidolon dies. The 1 min is nice but not a big game changer considering he can cast the summoning spells a bunch of times a day and they are a standard action.
Honestly, I think it should be split out.
Summoner can EITHER cast his Summon spell as a standard action and gain the summoned creatures for the spell's normal duration...
OR...
Summoner can perform a ritual summoning, that takes 100xSpell Level in gold pieces worth of components and Spell Level rounds to complete. When using the ritual, the summoned creatures stay around for 1 minute per caster level. Perhaps even allow them at 15th level to perform a greater summoning that costs 1000xSpell Level in gold pieces worth of components and Spell Level minutes to complete (plus a spellcraft check, DC 15 + 2xSpell Level) and the summoned creatures stay around for CL Hours.
So both the ability to 'Quick Summon' in an emergency, and an ability to 'Ritual Summon' when they know they are going to need some backup.
I honestly think its a bit premature to assume anything is out of whack since I've not seen any actual in play experience so far. Also, Conjurers are good at casting Conjuration spells, not just summoning spells. Its fine for a Summoner to be especially good at summoning, and I don't think it really breaks much, especially considering the Summon Monster spells are pretty much the only offense that the Summoner can mount at lower levels.
I am currently playing a Druid and I find the Natures Ally spells are weak and not very useful compared to other spells the same level. I spend most of my spells buffing my animal companion or my party. I sorta suspect this will be true of the summoner. The Eidolon will probably be the focus of the summoner. Lets see cast a 3rd level summon monster spell or Haste?
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I actually like it the way it currently is, since making their summoning ability a SLA means that summoning is still a major part of the class, while the summoner can use his limited spell slots on utility/buff spells instead. Even with a duration of several minutes, it's rare that a summon will be around for more than 1-3 fights.
Basically, the ability gives the summoner enough endurance to use his actions on summoning or spell-casting in encounters, instead of pulling out the old crossbow. It's like how bards can cast spells to buff people, or sing and buff people - only the bard gains more actions by bardic music becoming a move/swift action, while the summoner starts off with 2 sets of actions thanks to the pet.
I guess my group is different, we never have fights run in that kind of succession. I mean i think it makes all the minute per level or 10 minute per level spells much stronger.
As for stepping on the conjurers toes, this is just a piece of the conjurer playbook. He is still the master of battefield control, he will be fine. Besides, did you honestly think that a wizard would be a better summoner then the summoner? Thats kind of a silly idea no?
I guess my group is different, we never have fights run in that kind of succession. I mean i think it makes all the minute per level or 10 minute per level spells much stronger.
It wouldn't be an issue in my group either... but I can see it being an issue for some groups.
As for stepping on the conjurers toes, this is just a piece of the conjurer playbook. He is still the master of battefield control, he will be fine. Besides, did you honestly think that a wizard would be a better summoner then the summoner? Thats kind of a silly idea no?
Heh... I agree. The conjurer is a wizard and all that entails, who happens to be good at summoning. And the wizard bit is quite large enough.
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Me being the evil guy I am, I cannot help but wince at this thought.
Level 1 Eidolon
Scent and +8 Perception (Ouch but just as bad as some animal companions I guess)
Level 2 Summoner
Bond Senses, so you can locate hidden/invis with your Eidolon once it detects them. Great.
Level 7
Tremorsense... All the time? Okay, guess I can have flying invisible stuff if I want things to be a surprise.
Level 9
Blindsense. Gah! Really? Okay, no more melee, everyone gets attacked at range so we can even have surprise rounds.
Level 11
Blindsense Traded for Blindsight. Sigh, with Share Senses and Glitterdust nothing will ever sneak up on the party ever again.
Every fight trying to use stealth/invisibility will need to be setup in a football field with anything melee holding their actions until the party is within 35' and then charge in. Not to mention casting Invisibility on the aforementioned Eidolon (with the unlimited radius evo and maybe stealth skill evo) gives you the best scout conceivable.
Sure this Eidolon is weak in combat skills and will die easily but with a good build on Defense he can be hard as hell to kill and just spends every game as a 30' radius radar. Not mention he doesn't need sleep, or food. He can be a fantastic guard dog, just have him set up holding a rope in his mouth attached a pulley with pots and pans attached (with mental alarm cast on them for good measure). Between the actual mechanical trap if he gets Dismissed you have the Alarm on the pots. Ya know, in case you have 2 casters one casting Dismissal immediately after the first casts Silence. Would need a third with Dispel Magic or one of them high enough for a quickened Silence...
I think about these things too much but you haven't met the people I game with.
As for stepping on the conjurers toes, this is just a piece of the conjurer playbook. He is still the master of battefield control, he will be fine. Besides, did you honestly think that a wizard would be a better summoner then the summoner? Thats kind of a silly idea no?
The thing about that is, Jason himself has gone back and forth on whether or not that name is appropriate. I myself say not. And, in reverse, I could say "should a summoner be a better conjurer than a conjurer"? Name aside, this class is about the pet.
Personally, the SLAs aren't too much of a problem.
Think about it. Conjurer's main battle abilities stem from clouds of doom, coupled with a few creatures. This class is all about creatures. Your Eidolon is the main one, sure, but having another set of horrifying claws from beyond can't hurt things. Plus, the Planar Binding spells? Those are why this class is charisma. Those spells can let you generate your own personal army should you need it.
Besides that, what can a conjurer do? It can cover you in acid, put you in poisonous clouds, stop you in your tracks with a web, and, oh yeah, it can hit you with summoned creatures while you're down. Honestly, the last thing I think about for conjurers is the summon monster, since it usually gets eaten in a round or two. The conjurer's "shtick" is more about hampering foes and getting a few good hits in. The summoner is all about the extraplanar beasties, which is it's weakness and its strength. It can teleport too, but it's stuck with that. A sparse amount of attacking spells and multi-target hampering effects. This class is an even more specialized version of the conjurer. Maybe you should be asking if the conjurer should be stepping on this guy's toes.