Ok, just have looked through. Like it. So far. :) Both classes, much better than Oracle and Cavalier, honestly. I'd rate Oracle and Cavalier a 5 at best each, while Witch and Summoner are in the 7 and 8 range. Just as a reference, I rate the core classes about 7 to 9 (Barbarian 8, Bard 7, Cleric 9, Druid 8, Fighter 8, Paladin 9, Ranger 8, Rogue 9, Sorcerer 9, Wizard 9).
However, a player who is about to play them had a complaint, which I think is valid.
There should be a 'breath weapon' evolution for the summon. Probably a 2 or 3 pt evolution? With damage based on hit-dice. No min level for it (since it's based on hit dice), but perhaps a 'greater' breath weapon (spend additional 2 pts to double range). Something like 1/2 hit dice in either a 15 foot cone or a 30 foot line (30 foot cone/60 foot line at 10th level with 2 more evolution points?).
There should be a 'breath weapon' evolution for the summon. Probably a 2 or 3 pt evolution? With damage based on hit-dice. No min level for it (since it's based on hit dice), but perhaps a 'greater' breath weapon (spend additional 2 pts to double range). Something like 1/2 hit dice in either a 15 foot cone or a 30 foot line (30 foot cone/60 foot line at 10th level with 2 more evolution points?).
You mean like the 4 point evolution?
Breath Weapon (Su): An eidolon learns to exhale a cone
or line of magical energy, gaining a breath weapon.
Select either acid, cold, electricity, or fire. The eidolon
can breath a 30-foot cone (or 60-foot line) that deals
1d6 points of damage of the selected type per HD it
possesses. Those caught in the breath weapon can
attempt a Ref lex save for half damage. The DC is equal
to 10 + 1/2 the eidolon’s HD + the eidolon’s Constitution
modifier. The eidolon can use this ability once per day.
The eidolon can use this ability 1 additional time per day
by spending an additional 1 evolution point (maximum
3/day). The summoner must be at least 9th level before
selecting this evolution.
Ok, just have looked through. Like it. So far. :) Both classes, much better than Oracle and Cavalier, honestly. I'd rate Oracle and Cavalier a 5 at best each, while Witch and Summoner are in the 7 and 8 range. Just as a reference, I rate the core classes about 7 to 9 (Barbarian 8, Bard 7, Cleric 9, Druid 8, Fighter 8, Paladin 9, Ranger 8, Rogue 9, Sorcerer 9, Wizard 9).
However, a player who is about to play them had a complaint, which I think is valid.
There should be a 'breath weapon' evolution for the summon. Probably a 2 or 3 pt evolution? With damage based on hit-dice. No min level for it (since it's based on hit dice), but perhaps a 'greater' breath weapon (spend additional 2 pts to double range). Something like 1/2 hit dice in either a 15 foot cone or a 30 foot line (30 foot cone/60 foot line at 10th level with 2 more evolution points?).
in the 4 point abilities this is listed
Breath Weapon (Su): An eidolon learns to exhale a cone or line of magical energy, gaining a breath weapon. Select either acid, cold, electricity, or fire. The eidolon can breath a 30-foot cone (or 60-foot line) that deals 1d6 points of damage of the selected type per HD it possesses. Those caught in the breath weapon can attempt a Ref lex save for half damage. The DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the eidolon’s HD + the eidolon’s Constitution modifier. The eidolon can use this ability once per day. The eidolon can use this ability 1 additional time per day by spending an additional 1 evolution point (maximum 3/day). The summoner must be at least 9th level before selecting this evolution.
LOL,
Ok everyone, I see I missed it. :)
No mention of the Monk in your ratings? *sniffle* I see how it is...
No mention of the Monk in your ratings? *sniffle* I see how it is...
LOL,
I always forget him. Rank 7 for Monk.
I would like to see a multiple head Evolution. I like 2-3 headed creatures.
I would like to see a multiple head Evolution. I like 2-3 headed creatures.
Agreed, that would be nice. You'd have to do something about bite and breath, put in some comments that each additional head costs +1 point if the creature has bite, and +1 if it has breath weapon.
I could really see a cerberus build with three heads and each having a flame breath attack.
you could set it up as each new head is secondary attack and so on to balance it.
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you could set it up as each new head is secondary attack and so on to balance it.
I don't see the problem as long as you don't set it up with an attack form. Have it be like tail. It adds a minor skill bonus but doesn't do anything other than that by itself. You'd have to pay the extra 1 to add the bite attack or whatever.
Why not evolutions that make the eidolon go from medium to small and then to tiny?
Why not evolutions that make the eidolon go from medium to small and then to tiny?
The ability to make it small is built in (it's discussed under the Base Forms heading). I could see an evolution for Tiny though.
It can already go to small. It's contained in the rules just before selecting the basic form.
As for tiny and diminutive, well, this guy is supposed to be a combat juggernaut. Housecat and toad sized critters are rarely formidable outside of SLAs and Su abilities.
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A Barbs or Spines evolution would be cool. Maybe another for shootink spines ala Manticore (the pimp daddy). Also along the same idea instead of spines a energy field upgrade to the energy attack. A howl could also be cool. Someone mentioned add weaknesses or vunerabilites to gain extra points that would be great. Another idea someone mentioned is subtype kits for a discount. Swarm maybe or incopereal both for high cost could be cool.I guess the overall point, beside I am a big fan of options is that they should just go wild as long as the options are expensive enough.
Director of Game Design
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Why not evolutions that make the eidolon go from medium to small and then to tiny?
I looked at this option. Going smaller than Small is really not that good of an idea. The eidolon loses a lot of its functionality with those stat penalties.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
A few suggestions :
Sting : Modify to say '...must posess a tail or tentacle attack...', it only makes sense a tentacle could have a sting as well (think octopus eidolon with stingers at the tips of it's tentacles).
Teleportation : I know this could be done as a spell like ability, but so could a lot of the evolutions (breath weapon = fireball, etc), but all the other forms of movement are evolutions, and I could see a high level eidelon with the ability to teleport (they already sort of have this ability with their summoner, to switch places or join them).
Ranged Attacks : Some form of ranged attack (similar to the manticore's tail spike ability or a porcupine's quills) would be nice as well.
Spikes : The ability to grow, or always have, spikes, like a porcupine. Probably with the permanent spikes costing less than those that can be retracted.
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A few suggestions :
Sting : Modify to say '...must posess a tail or tentacle attack...', it only makes sense a tentacle could have a sting as well (think octopus eidolon with stingers at the tips of it's tentacles).
Teleportation : I know this could be done as a spell like ability, but so could a lot of the evolutions (breath weapon = fireball, etc), but all the other forms of movement are evolutions, and I could see a high level eidelon with the ability to teleport (they already sort of have this ability with their summoner, to switch places or join them).
Ranged Attacks : Some form of ranged attack (similar to the manticore's tail spike ability or a porcupine's quills) would be nice as well.
Spikes : The ability to grow, or always have, spikes, like a porcupine. Probably with the permanent spikes costing less than those that can be retracted.
Teleportation should definitely be treated as the Spell like ability evolution. It becomes way to powerful if you allow the creature to teleport at will.
Teleportation should definitely be treated as the Spell like ability evolution. It becomes way to powerful if you allow the creature to teleport at will.
Honestly, it depends on how it's done. If it's a short range teleport (Say 30 or 60 feet) then it's not all that powerful. Or, 30-60 feet, plus 3+Wis Modifier per day up to 1 mile teleports.
That's why I don't like the spell like ability, I don't want the teleport 100 miles version, just the 'boop' teleport behind enemy lines version, or 'boop' teleport out of the spiked pit version.
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Teleportation should definitely be treated as the Spell like ability evolution. It becomes way to powerful if you allow the creature to teleport at will.Honestly, it depends on how it's done. If it's a short range teleport (Say 30 or 60 feet) then it's not all that powerful. Or, 30-60 feet, plus 3+Wis Modifier per day up to 1 mile teleports.
That's why I don't like the spell like ability, I don't want the teleport 100 miles version, just the 'boop' teleport behind enemy lines version, or 'boop' teleport out of the spiked pit version.
It's still more powerful than you give it credit for. I.e. I need to get on the other side of that wall or door. Hey, I'm stuck in a web? I think not. Wall of fire? No problem. Wall of force? No problem. AoO? Nope. Move mitigation at all? Nope( obviously dimension anchor, but, realistically, how often are you hit by that? ). I'm falling? Nope, back to safety. Setting up flanks also becomes trivial.
Basically instant movement to where you want within a given area with no regard to physics or physical impediments is way to powerful for a 2 or 4 point ability.
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A few suggestions :
Sting : Modify to say '...must posess a tail or tentacle attack...', it only makes sense a tentacle could have a sting as well (think octopus eidolon with stingers at the tips of it's tentacles).
+8000000000000000000000000
Just wanted to add my support to this since I already tried to add poison to tentacles and was prevented, this would give me the ability to do so.
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I'd like to see evolutions that allow the creature to Blur or become incorporeal but that could simply be done with an SLA (though perhaps at more points than the Blur ability deserves).
More realistically, I think it would be nice to have an evolution that created a bony ridge, fan or something similar (think along the lines of triceratops here) that allowed a quadruped or serpentine Eidolon to gain a shield bonus. I realize that natural armor accomplishes a similar feature, but for those of use that want a tanking Eidolon but don't want the biped base form we could use another option. I'm also aware that I could simply add an extra pair of arms and the proficiency but that seems like a silly creature to me.
Personally, I'd like some more abstracted (rules-flexible) evolution options.
Stuff like:
1 pt - Fast: Increase base speed by 10 ft. (rather than giving my tauric eidolon extra legs it doesn't need)
2 pts - Clever: Choose a bonus feat (more than fair, considering they get many useful feats for 1 pt)
And how about something to expand build options? I'd like to be able to whip out random, incidental spellcasting like all the other cool outsiders get to do:
4 pts - Mage: The eidolon gains spellcasting as 1st level sorcerer (or perhaps cleric). Increase caster level (and spell list) by 1 level for each additional evolution point spent, to a maximum caster level of the eidolon's hit dice - 2.
Lastly, it'd be nice to make medium and small eidolons competitive; the moves to large and huge net such massive attribute bonuses for the big monsters, it seems fair to add something like:
4 pts - Elite: The eidolon gains the advanced (simple) template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 natural armor). This may only be purchased for medium or small eidolons, and only after level 12. This evolution may not be given to the summoner via the Greater Aspect class ability.
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Hmmm... I like some of the suggestions a LOT (yet I'm terrible at math and synergy, so I *have* to test stuff in practise to realize how it actually works)!
Although, before submitting, test them a few times (against NPCs and monsters if not during a "real" session) to see how they play and work with other ("official") abilities at different levels.
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Personally, I'd like some more abstracted (rules-flexible) evolution options.
Stuff like:
1 pt - Fast: Increase base speed by 10 ft. (rather than giving my tauric eidolon extra legs it doesn't need)
2 pts - Clever: Choose a bonus feat (more than fair, considering they get many useful feats for 1 pt)And how about something to expand build options? I'd like to be able to whip out random, incidental spellcasting like all the other cool outsiders get to do:
4 pts - Mage: The eidolon gains spellcasting as 1st level sorcerer (or perhaps cleric). Increase caster level (and spell list) by 1 level for each additional evolution point spent, to a maximum caster level of the eidolon's hit dice - 2.
Lastly, it'd be nice to make medium and small eidolons competitive; the moves to large and huge net such massive attribute bonuses for the big monsters, it seems fair to add something like:
4 pts - Elite: The eidolon gains the advanced (simple) template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 natural armor). This may only be purchased for medium or small eidolons, and only after level 12. This evolution may not be given to the summoner via the Greater Aspect class ability.
Your Mage evolution would allow up to 6th lvl spells( eventually ). That might be a little too much. i can see, maybe, getting up to 2nd.
As for other evolutions.. I am mulling them over.
I have been considering a multiple head evolution... barbs or spines is not a bad idea either.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
To a multiple head evolution could also be added something like the Ettin's Superior Two-Weapon Fighting by spending additional points.
Hmmm... I like some of the suggestions a LOT (yet I'm terrible at math and synergy, so I *have* to test stuff in practise to realize how it actually works)!
Although, before submitting, test them a few times (against NPCs and monsters if not during a "real" session) to see how they play and work with other ("official") abilities at different levels.
Your Mage evolution would allow up to 6th lvl spells( eventually ). That might be a little too much. i can see, maybe, getting up to 2nd.
They're speculative numbers, and I confess I was a bit tired when coming up with that one. If the eidolon kept it's base statistics all the way up through level 20, it'd be fairly balanced to allow access to magic up to 15th level (i mean, its cha tops out at 15, or 21 if you drop 6 more evolution points into it).
But... I made a test build, and yeah, it's way overpowered. The innate +18 to natural armor and +8 to dex breaks down any pretense of balance with PC casters. That said though, there's a precedent for spellcasting outsiders, and I really would like to see it fulfilled. Suppose you double the cost per caster level to two. Yields:
4 pts - Mage: The eidolon gains spellcasting as 1st level sorcerer (or perhaps cleric). Increase caster level (and spell list) by 1 level for each additional 2 evolution points spent, to a maximum caster level of the eidolon's hit dice - 4.
Consequently,
5th level eidolon could cast like a 1st level sorc for 4 pts (4 left over)
8th level eidolon could cast like a 4th level sorc for 10 pts, (1 left over)
11th level eidolon could cast like a 6th level sorc for 14 pts, (1 left over)
14th level eidolon could cast like a 8th level sorc for 18 pts. (1 left over)
17th level eidolon could cast like a 10th level sorc for 22 pts (0 pts left over. Also, its base charisma would be too low to cast 5th level spells at this point)
20th level eidolon could cast like a 12th level sorc for 26 pts (0 pts left over, and again, inadequate base charisma for 6th level spells)
Given that this build shoots the eidolon's normally beastly combat abilities out the airlock, and it's save DCs would be laughable compared to a PC caster, it seems somewhat balanced. As balanced as the eidolon already is, anyhow.
Personally, I'd like some more abstracted (rules-flexible) evolution options.
Stuff like:
1 pt - Fast: Increase base speed by 10 ft. (rather than giving my tauric eidolon extra legs it doesn't need)
2 pts - Clever: Choose a bonus feat (more than fair, considering they get many useful feats for 1 pt)And how about something to expand build options? I'd like to be able to whip out random, incidental spellcasting like all the other cool outsiders get to do:
4 pts - Mage: The eidolon gains spellcasting as 1st level sorcerer (or perhaps cleric). Increase caster level (and spell list) by 1 level for each additional evolution point spent, to a maximum caster level of the eidolon's hit dice - 2.
Lastly, it'd be nice to make medium and small eidolons competitive; the moves to large and huge net such massive attribute bonuses for the big monsters, it seems fair to add something like:
4 pts - Elite: The eidolon gains the advanced (simple) template (+4 to all ability scores, +2 natural armor). This may only be purchased for medium or small eidolons, and only after level 12. This evolution may not be given to the summoner via the Greater Aspect class ability.
I approve of all these except for the mage idea. I'm not sure the elite one would need to wait all the way until 12th. 9th would probably be OK (stick it in between Large & Huge).
I approve of all these except for the mage idea. I'm not sure the elite one would need to wait all the way until 12th. 9th would probably be OK (stick it in between Large & Huge).
Me too, but I erred on the side of low power. Large and Huge net about +12 in attribute bonuses apiece, whereas the advanced (simple) template would pile on +25 in one go. Even if some of those abilities are irrelevant to the play of the creature, its a pretty ridiculous discount and an auto-select for every eidolon its available to.
On the subject of evolutions I'd like to see, I've got a couple more:
1 pt - Limb:: The eidolon has an additional arm, leg, tentacle, or tail. Note: none of these are inherently able to attack. An arm may carry a weapon, however.
Basically, this replaces all the separate limb evolutions, and lets you make a 3-legged 1-armed goon for 4 points instead of 6. Also, it answers the issues of tentacles being overpowered.
2 pts - Unnatural: The eidolon has unnatural anatomy, making it difficult to injure. Whenever it is struck by a critical hit or sneak attack, it has a 25% chance of ignoring the extra damage. At 6th level, this may be increased to 50% for an additional 2 points (4 total). At 12th level the eidolon may be fully immune to sneak attack and critical hits for 4 additonal evolution points (total of 8).
I know outsiders are traditionally crit-vulnerable, but I have my Ooze-like concept and I'd like to build it properly. I'm sure plenty of undead fans feel the same.
At-will Ability: An eidolon may use a spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list as an at-will spell-like ability for the spell's level + 4 evolution points. This evolution may not be selected before level 12, and the maximum spell level is (1/2 the eidolon's hit dice, rounded down) -4.
This is ridiculously expensive. If your eidolon would rather spam magic missile instead of have spell resistance or be large and have 2 extra attacks, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed to.
For comparison, Bralani Azata and Babaus (both viable leadership'd cohorts for a level 13 character) can cast blur, charm person, gust of wind, mirror image, and wind wall, darkness, dispel magic, and greater teleport (self only) all at will.
Ok,
Another ability I'd love to see in an Eidelon is the ability to heal. Honestly. Think about it. Granted you can do this with an SLA to cast Cure spells, but, something like abilities to heal or remove curses or blindness etc would be nice. It would allow someone to play a healer without actually playing a healer (which is something that most groups have problems with).
The summoner would be able to pick just how much healing he wants to provide (based on his evolutions) while reserving his own spells for buffs, etc. Plus that would open up a lot of character builds for the summoner (priests of a healing god having companions given by the gods, etc).
Ok,
Another ability I'd love to see in an Eidelon is the ability to heal. Honestly. Think about it. Granted you can do this with an SLA to cast Cure spells, but, something like abilities to heal or remove curses or blindness etc would be nice. It would allow someone to play a healer without actually playing a healer (which is something that most groups have problems with).The summoner would be able to pick just how much healing he wants to provide (based on his evolutions) while reserving his own spells for buffs, etc. Plus that would open up a lot of character builds for the summoner (priests of a healing god having companions given by the gods, etc).
I think you addressed your own problem in your opening paragraph: SLA's for cure/heal effects. I also posted a spellcaster progression hinting at allowing eidolons to know spells. It's something all the angels get to do, and seems like it'd be fun and flavorful.
So, how's this for a wacky evolution:
2 pts - Symbiote: The summoner and his eidolon are conjoined! They must always stay in adjacent squares, or they may share the same space without penalty. While this connection does not generally hinder their individual agility, any attempt to move one away from the other (such as bull rush or grappling) must succeed against both the summoner and the eidolon. The pair must move at the slower of their two speeds unless one is large enough to carry the other. At first level, the summoner may share the benefit of up to 1 point of evolution that the eidolon possesses (evolutions that grant limbs, attacks, or changes in size may not be shared in this way). At 4th level, the summoner may share a second point of evolutions, and an additional one every 4 levels thereafter (3 at 8th, 4 at 12th, etc.). If the summoner is reduced to -1 hp, he is rendered unconscious as normal, but further damage is subtracted from the eidolon's hit points - it effectively gains the life link summoner class ability with respect to the summoner himself. If the summoner casts a spell that targets only himself, as an immediate action he may spend an additional spell slot of the same level to have the eidolon also gain the effects of the spell, as though it were individually targeted by it.
When the summoner gains the aspect and greater aspect class abilities, any evolutions he takes are not subtracted from his eidolon's pool of evolution points.
Observations: THIS IS AWESOME
More sensibly: this is a great dynamic change from how most people are building their summoners/eidolons. You force the summoner up into the same environment as the eidolon! To compensate for the increased risk and irrelevance of maker's call and transposition type class abilities, you allow them to share some of the eidolon's powers.
Ok,
Another ability I'd love to see in an Eidelon is the ability to heal. Honestly. Think about it. Granted you can do this with an SLA to cast Cure spells, but, something like abilities to heal or remove curses or blindness etc would be nice. It would allow someone to play a healer without actually playing a healer (which is something that most groups have problems with).The summoner would be able to pick just how much healing he wants to provide (based on his evolutions) while reserving his own spells for buffs, etc. Plus that would open up a lot of character builds for the summoner (priests of a healing god having companions given by the gods, etc).
I think you addressed your own problem in your opening paragraph: SLA's for cure/heal effects. I also posted a spellcaster progression hinting at allowing eidolons to know spells. It's something all the angels get to do, and seems like it'd be fun and flavorful.
Here's the problem, as I see it, using SLA. The Eidelon can only gain sorcerer/wizard spells. That sort of defeats that idea.
That's why I suggested an alternate evolution to allow healing.