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One of my players is researching for his druid character and he pointed out to me that bats only get Blindsense, not Blindsight. Really? 50% miss chance? Denied Dex bonus? Half movement speed? Is echolocation not listed specifically in the description of Blindsight? Was this a decision made solely to allow druids to turn into a bat and gain some sort of aid in darkness, since Blindsight is never given at any level of Beast Shape? It simply seems a bit silly.
Also, why does Beast Shape III and IV give the Web ability? Not a single Animal or Magical Beast has this ability, not even the Phase Spider! Was there a point at which it was contemplated that these spells would allow changing into Vermin?
I plan on house-ruling that bats have Blindsight, and probably adding in it and other special abilities in the Beast Shape spells (like a cheetah's Sprint ability) at whatever level seems appropriate. I was simply wondering about the reasoning behind these decisions.
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One of my players is researching for his druid character and he pointed out to me that bats only get Blindsense, not Blindsight. Really? 50% miss chance? Denied Dex bonus? Half movement speed? Is echolocation not listed specifically in the description of Blindsight? Was this a decision made solely to allow druids to turn into a bat and gain some sort of aid in darkness, since Blindsight is never given at any level of Beast Shape? It simply seems a bit silly.
Also, why does Beast Shape III and IV give the Web ability? Not a single Animal or Magical Beast has this ability, not even the Phase Spider! Was there a point at which it was contemplated that these spells would allow changing into Vermin?
I plan on house-ruling that bats have Blindsight, and probably adding in it and other special abilities in the Beast Shape spells (like a cheetah's Sprint ability) at whatever level seems appropriate. I was simply wondering about the reasoning behind these decisions.
Do note that no where in the description of a Bat Swarm or Dire Bat does it indicate the creature as 'blind' or otherwise lacking normal sight. It may not make sense compared to bats on Earth, but the rules don't lie. Bats in Golarion can see!
As for Beast Shape, who is to say animals they release in the future won't have web, or animals you create yourself?
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
asknethys@karuikage.net
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Oh, I did not think that they were blind, but the quintessential bat quality of being able to find their way in pitch darkness is now gone. That is the point that sticks with me. As for web, I had indeed thought of that, though I imagine it would likely have to be a Magical Beast, not likely an Animal. Still, I am curious as to whether or not this was the reason for its inclusion, or if it was just a mistake? Or some other reason entirely that is eluding me?
Vision is still better than echolocation. Bats can sense the location of things with echolocation, but it is not a perfect sense. But bats are really good at it--hence the +12 modifier to Perception, or +16 using blindsense.
And yes, part of the reason why bats are written up as blindsense rather than blindsight in the game because druids would run around in bat form at all times to gain blindsight and ignore invisibility.
While there are no animals in the Bestiary that have web], (1) that doesn't mean we won't introduce animals later that do, and (2) that doesn't mean that there aren't higher-level versions of the beast shape spells that let you turn into vermin (and thus gain the web ability), or feats that would modify the spell to let you turn into vermin.
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Ah, thank you, it is so nice to be able to hear it directly from the mouth of someone who helped design it and can give an insight into the 'why' of a thing. I am very impressed with how active you guys are on these boards, answering all of our inane questions! :)
I think perhaps I will simply give bats Darkvision in addition to Blindsense. It will avoid them being able to ignore invisibility as Blindsight would, but also solve the problem of having a bat being worse in the dark than a goblin. High Perception checks or no, losing Dex bonus to AC, 50% miss chance, and half speed simply do not seem like penalties a bat should be facing in darkness!
Okay, so it is the case that it was added in on the chance that it would be used later. Good to know! I had already told the player that if he really wanted to I would allow him to take a feat that allowed him to assume Vermin form instead, at the same size and modifiers given by Animal form. ;)
I think perhaps I will simply give bats Darkvision in addition to Blindsense. It will avoid them being able to ignore invisibility as Blindsight would, but also solve the problem of having a bat being worse in the dark than a goblin.
That's actually a pretty good solution--just make sure they lose it in an area of silence. ;)