Witch and flight


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber

I think witches gaining flight as a major Hex is off. The fly spell appears on their spell list at level three, which they gain at level five. Gaining 10 minutes of flight at that level does not compare favorably to agony, retribution, nightmare or waxen image IMO. Put it as a standard hex, perhaps available at level 4 as earliest, and perhaps make usage of a broom or kettle (or vacuum cleaner, if you play pathfinder modern) mandatory - if you go all cliché, just go all the way. Flight is very much a signatory ability for moderately experienced witches, and at level 10, they are more than moderately experienced.

Stefan


I definitely have to throw in a vote of agreement here. If it stays where it's at, it should have a longer total duration (though I'm not sure on an exact, perhaps 10 minutes/level instead of 1). As is, it's simply a single extra casting of the fly spell a day, and a casting that only works on the witch. It just seems....underwhelming for something that doesn't show up until the second half of the class.


I agree. If it were me, I would just make it at will overland flight (which that spell basically is anyway) that requires a broom. Flying is a big thing for witches.


I agree with Velderan, though I wouldn't just restrict it to brooms. Brooms are iconic, but IMO there should be other options. Maybe also allow other foci, like flying carpets or kettles. Or maybe just make the speed faster when on a broom.


Atlatl Jones wrote:
I agree with Velderan, though I wouldn't just restrict it to brooms. Brooms are iconic, but IMO there should be other options. Maybe also allow other foci, like flying carpets or kettles. Or maybe just make the speed faster when on a broom.

Good Point. Or even, say, a mortar and pestle.


Velderan wrote:
Atlatl Jones wrote:
I agree with Velderan, though I wouldn't just restrict it to brooms. Brooms are iconic, but IMO there should be other options. Maybe also allow other foci, like flying carpets or kettles. Or maybe just make the speed faster when on a broom.
Good Point. Or even, say, a mortar and pestle.

IMO, I don't think any focus should be required. A good portion of players will likely end up with one of some sort, sure, but I don't think it should be a requirement.


MaverickWolf wrote:
IMO, I don't think any focus should be required. A good portion of players will likely end up with one of some sort, sure, but I don't think it should be a requirement.

True enough. Maybe give the option to use a broom, which increases the speed but lowers the maneuverability of the overland flight.


MaverickWolf wrote:


Good Point. Or even, say, a mortar and pestle.
IMO, I don't think any focus should be required. A good portion of players will likely end up with one of some sort, sure, but I don't think it should be a requirement.

My thinking was, it gives them some kind of stipulation, so the ability won't be 100% at will without any downsides or stipulations (this being under the assumption that the existing version was changed).


Anyone remember the movie Warlock? His "foci" was a potion of boiled fat from an unbaptized boy.


Requiring a broom to fly (or a mortar, or a cauldron, or a carpet etc) is great in a setting where people don't fly without wings. In D&D, flight and levitation without the use of wings or props is so commonplace that it makes the use of props a bit superfluous.

Unless the ability is re-directed toward an object that the witch has to create/bond in order to gain the flight ability, I'd leave flight as an hex (especially a greater hex) without any focus or prop.

That being said, I'd love to see a low level ability enabling the witch to fly on a broom/cauldron/carpet.

'findel


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber

Well, perhaps take away any level requirement, but require the witch to start with a focus that is anointed with a fly potion or salve. Then, at later levels, the focus is no longer needed (say, at level 10), and the duration increases dramatically. EDIT: The duration could increase from 1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level or even 1 hour/level. The latter might be a bit much, so this might call for a later point. This "tiered" flight has the additional charm of remaining useful at higher levels.

Stefan


Stebehil wrote:
Well, perhaps take away any level requirement, but require the witch to start with a focus that is anointed with a fly potion or salve. Then, at later levels, the focus is no longer needed (say, at level 10), and the duration increases dramatically. EDIT: The duration could increase from 1 minute/level to 10 minutes/level or even 1 hour/level. The latter might be a bit much, so this might call for a later point. This "tiered" flight has the additional charm of remaining useful at higher levels.

Overland flight has a duration of 1 hour/level, so that duration shouldn't be too much. Overland flight is slower than regular flight, 40' instead of 60', but I have no problem with witches-on-broomsticks being the fastest magical flyers in the game.

I really like the idea of allowing a witch to fly with a broomstick or other bonded object at lower levels, and increase the duration dramatically at higher levels. I'm less sold on completely dispensing with the focus at higher levels, but perhaps speed could be dropped down to 40' speed when flying without the broom, to give high-level witches an incentive to keep using the iconic witch's broom/cauldron/etc.


Atlatl Jones wrote:
to give high-level witches an incentive to keep using the iconic witch's broom/cauldron/etc.

Why? What if we don't want to play the 'iconic' witch? I'm sorry, but I don't like the idea of limitations designed just to shoehorn you into what somebody else's idea of what something should be. If you want to have a focus, that's great, but you shouldn't have to.

Scarab Sages

Oh, then howabout this,

A Witch with the Flight Hex, may place it on an item (such as a broom, carpet, cauldon, a bed, etc) to enable them to carry others with them. The item used as a focus for this power may be changed when the witch prepares spells. Every 2 additional people the object can fit reduces the maneuverability by 1 stage.

Masterwork items used for this added to this add their equipment bonus to the fly rolls.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Flight Hex is there as an option, not a mandatory choice. I don't see anyone asking for the removal of the Charm hex even though Charm spells are present on the spell list.

Having flight as a Hex means that the witch has flight as an option even if her familliar is destroyed, it also means having flight as an option without devoting a spell slot to it.


Laurefindel wrote:

Requiring a broom to fly (or a mortar, or a cauldron, or a carpet etc) is great in a setting where people don't fly without wings. In D&D, flight and levitation without the use of wings or props is so commonplace that it makes the use of props a bit superfluous.

Unless the ability is re-directed toward an object that the witch has to create/bond in order to gain the flight ability, I'd leave flight as an hex (especially a greater hex) without any focus or prop.

That being said, I'd love to see a low level ability enabling the witch to fly on a broom/cauldron/carpet.

'findel

Well, flying as a supernatural ability rather than a spell or an SLA is a big deal for a flightless humanoid, so I felt like giving them permaflight without any requirements or drawbacks might be too big an advantage. Hours/day is a silly limitation, because they can just cast overland flight a couple of times, and the cool part of hexes is that most of them are at-wills. So this felt like a compromise.

Either way, flying is a big part of most witch lore, so it really does need to be a bigger part of the class. I think we can all agree on that.


Velderan wrote:
Either way, flying is a big part of most witch lore, so it really does need to be a bigger part of the class. I think we can all agree on that.

Definitively.

I do feel however that flight has been de-mystified in D&D (read became very accessible). I'm not sure if putting the which on a broom (so to speak) is going to give a sense of mysticism back to flight or simply restrict the which abilities to fill her role (in a D&D sense of course).

Sovereign Court

Perhaps a duration equal to overland flight with a speed equal to their regular land speed without a focus (like a broom), but up to double that with a focus would be a better ability.


Guy Humual wrote:
Perhaps a duration equal to overland flight with a speed equal to their regular land speed without a focus (like a broom), but up to double that with a focus would be a better ability.

Again, why punish people because they want to stray from 'iconic' ideas? If I want to play a Witch who floats around of her own power, why should I be punished because I don't want a broom?

Sovereign Court

MaverickWolf wrote:
Again, why punish people because they want to stray from 'iconic' ideas? If I want to play a Witch who floats around of her own power, why should I be punished because I don't want a broom?

You're not being punished. You can still float around without a broom. People who play the class fallowing the iconic traditions of the class are being rewarded.


Guy Humual wrote:
You're not being punished. You can still float around without a broom. People who play the class fallowing the iconic traditions of the class are being rewarded.

So they're being rewarded for playing the class the 'right' way? That's what it comes down to. You can call it rewarding them for playing it the 'right' way or punishing others for playing it the 'wrong' way, but it's the same idea. The characters do not belong to iconic literature. They belong to the player, and rules that reward you for sticking with iconic stereotypes are unnecessary and bad design.

Sovereign Court

MaverickWolf wrote:
So they're being rewarded for playing the class the 'right' way? That's what it comes down to. You can call it rewarding them for playing it the 'right' way or punishing others for playing it the 'wrong' way, but it's the same idea. The characters do not belong to iconic literature. They belong to the player, and rules that reward you for sticking with iconic stereotypes are unnecessary and bad design.

You're allowed to play a class however you want. Maybe your wizard likes to use a battle axe and charge into battle. Maybe your fighter doesn't wear armour and specializes in darts and the quarterstaff. There's nothing stopping you from doing these things but the classes are set up to give the characters that follow the spirit of the class more advantages. If you don't like the flavor of the class then perhaps there's another class that would better suit your concept. Maybe wizards or sorcerers?


Independently from every other thougth I may have about Witches' flight, there's just one thing that punches me in the eye badly: a male Witch riding a broom.


Irrlicht wrote:
there's just one thing that punches me in the eye badly: a male Witch riding a broom.

For all its worth, the Harry Potter series made this acceptable for me.


Ah, right, I totally forgot about Harry Potter.
Now the male-witch-on-a-broom thing utterly kills me.
:D


I'm not sure why a male witch riding a broom is a problem, heh. I mean, there's nothing particularly feminine about it (though, one would have to be careful of the angle he sat on the broom when he leaned forward...)

Sovereign Court

Must resist urge to make sexist comment about women and housework . . .

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Guy Humual wrote:
Must resist urge to make sexist comment about women and housework . . .

Well, resist all you want, but that's the actual reason it's wrong for a man to ride a broom.

Mind you, the sexism was more even-handed than what we usually associate with the term. Women ruled the house, especially the kitchen. It was a right and a duty and men weren't qualified.


tejón wrote:


Well, resist all you want, but that's the actual reason it's wrong for a man to ride a broom.

Mind you, the sexism was more even-handed than what we usually associate with the term. Women ruled the house, especially the kitchen. It was a right and a duty and men weren't qualified.

EDIT: I'm really hoping your just referring to pre-christian cultures and not the horrid sexism that followed.

You mean it's wrong according to those cultures, and not that it's wrong in a fantasy game because men =/= housework, right? 'Cause that could be taken several ways.

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