Round 2 Rules Questions:


Round 2: Summoner and Witch

101 to 150 of 163 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

Paul Hedges wrote:
Does the Huge evolution physical ability scores really stack with the large. So a +16 to Strength? That seems a little high and I am not sure why it would stack. Another thing are there any penalties for the ED dying beyond it just disappearing for a day?

Yes, they stack. Check the Bestiary (or the PRD) for size increases in monsters: the evolutions mirror them exactly, as far as stats are concerned.

No, there are no penalties for the Eidolon's "death" -- remember, they're summoned creatures, so "death" just means they're returned to their plane of origin for 24 hours.


Higly important question appeared while trying to figure out how to harm a well-made Eidolon, ar at least get rid of it. (Yes, Banishment or Dismissal, but...) What happens to the Eidolon if the summoner dies (technically in combat the Eidolon could VERY WELL be the more valuable of the two)?


If an eidolon takes the Snatch feat, does it still need the Grab evolution in order to qualify for the Swallow Whole evolution?

Liberty's Edge

Zurai wrote:
Paul Hedges wrote:
Does the Huge evolution physical ability scores really stack with the large. So a +16 to Strength? That seems a little high and I am not sure why it would stack. Another thing are there any penalties for the ED dying beyond it just disappearing for a day?

Yes, they stack. Check the Bestiary (or the PRD) for size increases in monsters: the evolutions mirror them exactly, as far as stats are concerned.

No, there are no penalties for the Eidolon's "death" -- remember, they're summoned creatures, so "death" just means they're returned to their plane of origin for 24 hours.

Thanks Zurai!


Luthia wrote:

Higly important question appeared while trying to figure out how to harm a well-made Eidolon, ar at least get rid of it. (Yes, Banishment or Dismissal, but...) What happens to the Eidolon if the summoner dies (technically in combat the Eidolon could VERY WELL be the more valuable of the two)?

Nothing happens. The Eidolon sticks around and attacks whatever killed his pet.

Odentin wrote:
If an eidolon takes the Snatch feat, does it still need the Grab evolution in order to qualify for the Swallow Whole evolution?

Yes.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zurai wrote:
Luthia wrote:

Higly important question appeared while trying to figure out how to harm a well-made Eidolon, ar at least get rid of it. (Yes, Banishment or Dismissal, but...) What happens to the Eidolon if the summoner dies (technically in combat the Eidolon could VERY WELL be the more valuable of the two)?

Nothing happens. The Eidolon sticks around and attacks whatever killed his pet.

That actually opens a lot of story ideas. A group of 10th or 15th level characters hired by an Eidelon who's summoner died. He needs the summoner's soul returned (it's in a jar) so he can have him resurrected. The Eidelon could be very powerful, but can't afford to get into combat, if he dies, he never comes back.

Another might be that you can gain additional Eidelon's by finding ones that survived their summoner and making a new pact with them, similar to the Final Fantasy pacts for summoning in XII.


Zurai wrote:


Nothing happens. The Eidolon sticks around and attacks whatever killed his pet.

Was that a joke?

I think this needs to be clarified, I can see why the Eidolon shouldn't vanish since the summoner would be the biggest target on the planet but leaving it opened ended doesn't make much sense either. I think the Eidolon should stay around for a day per level and if he can't get the summoner raised he leaves for greener pastures.

It would be helpful if all the rules clarification were stickies at the top of the forum.


Mahrdol wrote:
Zurai wrote:


Nothing happens. The Eidolon sticks around and attacks whatever killed his pet.

Was that a joke?

I think this needs to be clarified

No, it wasn't a joke (well, the "pet" remark was). Eidolons have no duration on their summoning and effects do not end with their effector's death unless otherwise specified. Once summoned, an Eidolon sticks around until forcibly unsummoned (by the Summoner as a standard action or by a hostile party with magic or by reducing it to -ConBonus hit points).


Zurai wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Zurai wrote:


Nothing happens. The Eidolon sticks around and attacks whatever killed his pet.

Was that a joke?

I think this needs to be clarified

No, it wasn't a joke (well, the "pet" remark was). Eidolons have no duration on their summoning and effects do not end with their effector's death unless otherwise specified. Once summoned, an Eidolon sticks around until forcibly unsummoned (by the Summoner as a standard action or by a hostile party with magic or by reducing it to -ConBonus hit points).

Eidolon wanders the prime material plane carrying his master decaying body in the hope of finding a way to bring him back. Sounds pretty morbid but I am down with it.

Dark Archive

Paul Hedges wrote:
Does the Huge evolution physical ability scores really stack with the large. So a +16 to Strength? That seems a little high and I am not sure why it would stack.

They stack. +16 isn't that ou of the ordinary. A Black Dragon, for example, gets +14 from size Medium to size Huge.


Can the raven familiar of the witch talk?

In 3.5 all familiars were granding ine bonus feat.
Now only the ones tha grand bonus on saves are doing so.
Souldn't the rest of the familiars upgraded in order keep up with the rest?

Dark Archive

Zurai wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Zurai wrote:


Nothing happens. The Eidolon sticks around and attacks whatever killed his pet.

Was that a joke?

I think this needs to be clarified

No, it wasn't a joke (well, the "pet" remark was). Eidolons have no duration on their summoning and effects do not end with their effector's death unless otherwise specified. Once summoned, an Eidolon sticks around until forcibly unsummoned (by the Summoner as a standard action or by a hostile party with magic or by reducing it to -ConBonus hit points).

You could argue "distance from Summoner" is corresponds to the distance between the Summoner's Soul and the Eidolon. In which case the Eidolon would instantly be dismissed due to the range issue. It gets into what is defined as the summoner, his soul/memories/thoughts or his body? Since the Eidolon and Summoner are linked by the summoner's soul, I'd vote soul. If you were able to use Soul Jar on him then the Eidolon wouldn't disappear.


What are the base stats for the witch's familiars fox/goat/pig???

I've looked everywhere i can think of but can't find these stats...


FryZerBuRn wrote:

What are the base stats for the witch's familiars fox/goat/pig???

I've looked everywhere i can think of but can't find these stats...

I'm assuming they'll be in the Advanced Player's Guide. Until then, I'm using cat stats (minus claws and climb speed) for the fox. Dogs would probably work just fine with minor alterations for goats and pigs.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Zurai wrote:


I'm assuming they'll be in the Advanced Player's Guide. Until then, I'm using cat stats (minus claws and climb speed) for the fox. Dogs would probably work just fine with minor alterations for goats and pigs.

Actually, I think they'll be coming out in the Bestiary II, based on some language from the playtest document.

As for where to get stats now, I know Tome of Horrors has stats for both Foxes and Sheep (which are pretty close to goats). Not sure what to do about pigs though.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Zurai wrote:


I'm assuming they'll be in the Advanced Player's Guide. Until then, I'm using cat stats (minus claws and climb speed) for the fox. Dogs would probably work just fine with minor alterations for goats and pigs.

Actually, I think they'll be coming out in the Bestiary II, based on some language from the playtest document.

As for where to get stats now, I know Tome of Horrors has stats for both Foxes and Sheep (which are pretty close to goats). Not sure what to do about pigs though.

Maybe taking the boar and throwing the young template on it?


Draeke Raefel wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:
Zurai wrote:


Nothing happens. The Eidolon sticks around and attacks whatever killed his pet.

Was that a joke?

I think this needs to be clarified

No, it wasn't a joke (well, the "pet" remark was). Eidolons have no duration on their summoning and effects do not end with their effector's death unless otherwise specified. Once summoned, an Eidolon sticks around until forcibly unsummoned (by the Summoner as a standard action or by a hostile party with magic or by reducing it to -ConBonus hit points).
You could argue "distance from Summoner" is corresponds to the distance between the Summoner's Soul and the Eidolon. In which case the Eidolon would instantly be dismissed due to the range issue. It gets into what is defined as the summoner, his soul/memories/thoughts or his body? Since the Eidolon and Summoner are linked by the summoner's soul, I'd vote soul. If you were able to use Soul Jar on him then the Eidolon wouldn't disappear.

This is the exact discussion I had with a summoner's player. So far we lack a good conclusion. Still hoping for additional official clarification of this in the final version.

Sovereign Court

Mahrdol wrote:
Zurai wrote:


Nothing happens. The Eidolon sticks around and attacks whatever killed his pet.

Was that a joke?

I think this needs to be clarified, I can see why the Eidolon shouldn't vanish since the summoner would be the biggest target on the planet but leaving it opened ended doesn't make much sense either. I think the Eidolon should stay around for a day per level and if he can't get the summoner raised he leaves for greener pastures.

It would be helpful if all the rules clarification were stickies at the top of the forum.

Do Eidelons have the word eidelon stamped on their forhead, or is it summoners? I mean I've played in tons of games where I fought a wizard and some strange new monster minion before the summoner arrived, what all of the sudden makes the eidelon/summoner combo more recognizable to your typical wizard/strange monster combo. I don't get how people say oh yeah just target the summoner. Hell I'd love to for my players to do that, that way when the "summoner" drops and they think that the nasty monster that was a much worse threat is beaten, but instead it just continues on killing them and they wasted their best offense on the spellcaster.


Do Eidelons have the word eidelon stamped on their forhead, or is it summoners?

Both, in fact. The summoner has his on his forehead, and the eidolon's is somewhere on it's body.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
lastknightleft wrote:
Do Eidelons have the word eidelon stamped on their forhead, or is it summoners? I mean I've played in tons of games where I fought a wizard and some strange new monster minion before the summoner arrived, what all of the sudden makes the eidelon/summoner combo more recognizable to your typical wizard/strange monster combo. I don't get how people say oh yeah just target the summoner. Hell I'd love to for my players to do that, that way when the "summoner" drops and they think that the nasty monster that was a much worse threat is beaten, but instead it just continues on killing them and they wasted their best offense on the spellcaster.

P. 4:

Quote:
The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned. While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).

So, yes, if your character is in a room with a summoner and his eidolon, you can theoretically spot the connection.

Edit: ninjad by xlapus. Well played, sir.


When a character drops into negative HP the bad guys really don't know he is dead or still alive unless they can do a heal check or whatever. If the Eidolon vanishes on death then the bad guys know he is still alive and they would be obligated tactically to finish the summoner off which would be a huge detractor from playing the summoner class since it is pretty easy to know that the summoner and his Eidolon are together.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Mahrdol wrote:

When a character drops into negative HP the bad guys really don't know he is dead or still alive unless they can do a heal check or whatever. If the Eidolon vanishes on death then the bad guys know he is still alive and they would be obligated tactically to finish the summoner off which would be a huge detractor from playing the summoner class since it is pretty easy to know that the summoner and his Eidolon are together.

Actually, it's a tactical advantage. Pick the fighter with the biggest AC and most hit points. Get a wand of minor illusions, put an illusion of the summoning mark on his forehead, glowing nice and bright. Then cover up the summoner's mark with a nice headband or helmet.

Convince the BBEG's to spend their time trying to take down the 'summoner'. :)

Sovereign Court

delabarre wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
Do Eidelons have the word eidelon stamped on their forhead, or is it summoners? I mean I've played in tons of games where I fought a wizard and some strange new monster minion before the summoner arrived, what all of the sudden makes the eidelon/summoner combo more recognizable to your typical wizard/strange monster combo. I don't get how people say oh yeah just target the summoner. Hell I'd love to for my players to do that, that way when the "summoner" drops and they think that the nasty monster that was a much worse threat is beaten, but instead it just continues on killing them and they wasted their best offense on the spellcaster.

P. 4:

Quote:
The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned. While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).

So, yes, if your character is in a room with a summoner and his eidolon, you can theoretically spot the connection.

Edit: ninjad by xlapus. Well played, sir.

Considering the world has an abundance of hats I don't consider this particularly offsetting however I do agree that you quite thouroughly ribbed me, good job.


About the Spell-Like Ability evolution, does it uses charisma for the concentration check?


pontoark wrote:
About the Spell-Like Ability evolution, does it uses charisma for the concentration check?

yes

Shadow Lodge

Do large and huge Eidolons get reach without needing to take the Reach Evolution?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Do large and huge Eidolons get reach without needing to take the Reach Evolution?

Unknown at this time. Jason hasn't weighed in on either side.

Which means at this point that if you ask 10 people here on the boards, you'll get 15 different answers that all boil down into the categories of : Yes. No. Maybe. Not Sure. OMG It's Broken!


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mdt wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Do large and huge Eidolons get reach without needing to take the Reach Evolution?

Unknown at this time. Jason hasn't weighed in on either side.

Which means at this point that if you ask 10 people here on the boards, you'll get 15 different answers that all boil down into the categories of : Yes. No. Maybe. Not Sure. OMG It's Broken!

You forgot, "I already house ruled it to X", since "Yes" and "No", imply RaW interpretation.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kolokotroni wrote:
mdt wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Do large and huge Eidolons get reach without needing to take the Reach Evolution?

Unknown at this time. Jason hasn't weighed in on either side.

Which means at this point that if you ask 10 people here on the boards, you'll get 15 different answers that all boil down into the categories of : Yes. No. Maybe. Not Sure. OMG It's Broken!

You forgot, "I already house ruled it to X", since "Yes" and "No", imply RaW interpretation.

Well, personally I usually dump that into 'OMG It's Broken!', because usually they precede their house rule with 'OMG It's so Broken! I house ruled it to this to fix it!'. :)

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Questions about Share Spells (maybe already posted - don't have time to read 130 posts to check):

1. You can cast spells with "target You" on your eidolon. What does the range become? Do you have to touch them? Can they be anywhere and get the spell? I'm here and the eidolon is across the room, I cast mirror image and poof it gets the MI instead of me?

2. Can you use spells from a spell trigger or spell completion item with target You on your eidolon? Will a scroll of MI work, or do you actually have to literally CAST the spell?

3. It says it doesn't work with "other abilities that are like spells," so would that exclude SLAs?

4. Just to clarify, you might think about changing the title of "share spells," both because I think there is some 'edition leakage' where people thing when you SHARE a spell that you AND the eidolon get it (like a 3.5 animal comp). Maybe call it "transfer spell" or something, to make clear that it is the eidolon getting the spell INSTEAD of you.


Jason Nelson wrote:
1. You can cast spells with "target You" on your eidolon. What does the range become? Do you have to touch them? Can they be anywhere and get the spell? I'm here and the eidolon is across the room, I cast mirror image and poof it gets the MI instead of me?

The Share Spells rules state to treat the spell as having a range of touch.

Quote:
2. Can you use spells from a spell trigger or spell completion item with target You on your eidolon? Will a scroll of MI work, or do you actually have to literally CAST the spell?

Scrolls would work. I'm not sure about wands or staves, but they should work.

Quote:
3. It says it doesn't work with "other abilities that are like spells," so would that exclude SLAs?

Yep.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Nelson wrote:

Questions about Share Spells (maybe already posted - don't have time to read 130 posts to check):

1. You can cast spells with "target You" on your eidolon. What does the range become? Do you have to touch them? Can they be anywhere and get the spell? I'm here and the eidolon is across the room, I cast mirror image and poof it gets the MI instead of me?

2. Can you use spells from a spell trigger or spell completion item with target You on your eidolon? Will a scroll of MI work, or do you actually have to literally CAST the spell?

3. It says it doesn't work with "other abilities that are like spells," so would that exclude SLAs?

4. Just to clarify, you might think about changing the title of "share spells," both because I think there is some 'edition leakage' where people thing when you SHARE a spell that you AND the eidolon get it (like a 3.5 animal comp). Maybe call it "transfer spell" or something, to make clear that it is the eidolon getting the spell INSTEAD of you.

1. Range of touch.

2. Not sure, but my initial reaction is yes.
3. Correct no SLA's
4. Would be nice, but the term is already in the core rules as such, its unlikely to change for that reason. Just seems we all missed the issue prior to the release of the summoner, which has alot more focus on the eidolon then anyone has had before.

Sovereign Court

Kamai wrote:
Is a eidolon supposed to be able to take the Improved Damage evolution and Improved Natural Attack for the same attack?

+1

And... for the life link ability the text says the summoner can sacrifice any number of hit points when the eidolon takes enough damage to kill it. I don't think its intended to be an open ended amount, rather only enough to negate the damage just done. Otherwise you get some wonky temp hps floating about.

--Jingle Bell Vrock


I found the following text not clear. I think it needs some corretion:

"A summoner can summon his eidolon once per day in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon is always at its full hit points. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to damage, it cannot be summoned again until the following day."

- Not clear, if the eidolon is dismissed by the summoner, can it be summoned again on the same day?
- If it cannot be summoned again on the same day afer a dismissal, why does the text say that it can be only summoned next day if slained due to damage? (If it is only summonable once per day, this sentence ha no meaning.)
- Why does the text say that "When summoned in this way"? Is there another way?
- According to this sentence: "When summoned in this way, the eidolon is always at its full hit points", I would assume that it can be summoned after dismissed, however if on the same day, it has the hit points it had last time when disappeared.


Well it stays 24/7 so you can summon it on monday and dismiss it on Friday then summon it once more on Friday as you have yet to summon it that day

As for the wording in this way, well you can call it to you at some levels. So that may be there to stop things like "Well I summoned him over here so now he has Full HP"


Question on a summoner:

How much maximum HP does the eidolon have at the time of summoning?
- Is it an average? (as usual in cas of summoned monsters, e.g. 11 hp for 2 HD, 2d10)
- Is it the maximum? (e.g. 20 for 2 HD)
- Is it randomly determinated at each summoning?
- Is it determined the same way as for PCs? (rolled separatly for each HD, and keeping track of rolled values, and is the same at each summoning)


just like an animal companion or any other summoned critter its average so 11HP at level 1 + con mod


Question on the eidolon evolution: Slam (this does not seem clear to me according to the current text)

If I select Limbs (arms) + Slam, does that mean my eidolon has
a) 1 extra limb with 1 slam attack
b) 2 extra limbs, but one can be used for a slam attack, and the other for claw attack
c) 2 extra limbs, but only one can be used for a slam attack, and the other for non-attack purposes
d) 2 extra limbs, with 2 slam attacks


You gain 2 limbs and one slam. You may only do one slam per limb, making it clear{to me anyhow} that you must use both limbs in that attack to use the slam


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
just like an animal companion or any other summoned critter its average so 11HP at level 1 + con mod

I'd equate it more like a cohort, which means it's really up to the GM. Honestly the eidelon is more akin to a cohort than a standard summon.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
You gain 2 limbs and one slam. You may only do one slam per limb, making it clear{to me anyhow} that you must use both limbs in that attack to use the slam

Yes, this is pretty much my take as well. Think of it as the classical brick from any superhero comic. He can punch or claw, but when he really wants to do damage he raises both arms over his head and pounds down in one motion with both arms, 'slamming' the opponent into the ground (flair, not saying the slam actually knocks people down, unless you get some feat that lets you do that).

Scarab Sages

Frostflame wrote:
I have a question about the witch class. It states her familiar can add spells from scrolls, does the scroll have to have spells from the witch list or is it any spell arcane or divine?

why does the witch have clone? shouldn't simulacron be a better choise?

Shadow Lodge

I understand that the claws on a bipedal eidolon are considered primary attacks. If you modify the claws with the Pincer evolution does that keep it as a primary attack or would it become a secondary as written?


The witch has Phantasmal Killer on its spell list, however the Fox gives the Phantasmal Killer as a bonus spell known. As far as I'm aware this is the only spell overlap on the witch list.

Perhaps Greater Invisibility would be a better 8th level bonus spell for the Fox?

(Greater Invisibility is not on the Witch spell list)

Scarab Sages

Raestlin wrote:
I understand that the claws on a bipedal eidolon are considered primary attacks. If you modify the claws with the Pincer evolution does that keep it as a primary attack or would it become a secondary as written?

Just to clarify - claws on ANY eidolon are considered primary

as for the pincers the way I read it is you have to replace claws with the pincers based on what is written in the playtest document "the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with pincers (this still costs 1 evolution point)" - it also says that "This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution" so I take that to mean for every pincer evolution there must be a set of limbs & does not state that it allows claws as well

Shadow Lodge

Ceefood wrote:
Raestlin wrote:
I understand that the claws on a bipedal eidolon are considered primary attacks. If you modify the claws with the Pincer evolution does that keep it as a primary attack or would it become a secondary as written?

Just to clarify - claws on ANY eidolon are considered primary

as for the pincers the way I read it is you have to replace claws with the pincers based on what is written in the playtest document "the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with pincers (this still costs 1 evolution point)" - it also says that "This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution" so I take that to mean for every pincer evolution there must be a set of limbs & does not state that it allows claws as well

I meant do the pincer attacks that replace the claw attack remain primary, or do they become secondary attacks?

Scarab Sages

They would become secondary attacks


Does an Eidolon need to eat/sleep if you keep it around long enough?

Scarab Sages

the rules currently dont state if they do or not

Scarab Sages

Ceefood wrote:
They would become secondary attacks

I don't agree. After describing pincers, it goes on to say: "Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with pincers (this still costs 1 evolution point)." I read this as saying you can add pincers, or "alternatively" you can modify your base claws into pincers. And the fact that you're modifying a primary attack, and still have to pay 1 evolution point, leads me to believe if you evolve your base claws they stay primary attacks. No one is going to spend 1 point to reduce their attacks from primary to secondary.

I do have a question however. With the pincers, are you still able to hold items/weapons, open doors, manipulate items, etc.?

101 to 150 of 163 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Advanced Player's Guide Playtest / Round 2: Summoner and Witch / Round 2 Rules Questions: All Messageboards