Magic Item Creation and Caster Level


Rules Questions

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Jedorian wrote:

That is what I had to correct with my players, as they were just as confused as you. It is very clearly stated that you need to have the minimum level to cast the spell in the first place at all. Again, we fall back to the utter loss of common sense and the ability to read that most players (and us DMs) seem to suffer from when it comes to this issue.

A 4th level caster is not capable of casting Wish, as in order to do so they need to have the ability to cast 9th levels spells.

I do not see any text in any of these books where it states that you can use a spell above your caster level without Use Magic Device being required (and even then, the task is often quite impossible as the DC would be over the best they could get even with a 20, excluding high powered characters, that is).

Also, no mage can add a spell to their spell list that is beyond their level's capability. Where in the rules do you see this being so?

No, indeed, it states:

"...A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than
her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to
cast the needed spell...", pg. 549, Core Rule Book, 5th edition, second paragraph, second sentence.

I assume your referencing the above bolded. Check the First FAQ I linked this does keep missing Errata that doesn't mean the FAQ is wrong or that they changed their mind. My 1st printing Core rule book has the same line.

What this means is that you can't make the item as a CL 3 item if inflict serious wounds is the required spell. But if its an item that I have the feat for such as a Wonderous Item or Arms or Armor I can make it at level 3 by raising the DC by 10 +5 for not having the spell(unless someone else is doing the casting) and +5 for my level being lower than the minimum for the item So my check is now set at a 20 to craft teh item.


Ok. I had told myself I wouldn't quote anything, because Jedorian had already quoted everything. I only created this account to back him up, when I saw the ridiculous comments on this thread.

But before I use quotes, I should point out that somewhere along the line, the exact definition of Caster Level got lost. Jedorian's argument was that you cannot raise the DC of the crafting to make up for a spell that you are not of the appropriate level to cast. Somewhere along the line, the rest of you chose to change that to item caster level, because that is friendlier to your argument.

If a spell requires a 4th level spell be cast, you must be capable of casting 4th level spells to make the item.

Core Rulebook, 4th printing, page 549:

" Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic
item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not
meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation
feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger
and spell-completion magic items without meeting
their spell prerequisites.
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note
that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of
the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the
item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than
her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to
cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can
place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

They specifically mentioned that you can make lower level items, which would imply you cannot make higher level ones. Otherwise, why mention it.


If, for example, you are a 8th level sorceror (technically capable of casting Ice Storm), but you do not have Ice Storm on your spell list, you can add +5 to the DC to make a Wand of Ice Storm.

But if you are a 7th level sorceror (incapable of casting 4th level spells), you cannot make a Wand of Ice Storm.


Unless of course you as stated by Sean add +5 to the DC. The FAQs apply to all printings of the books not just to the ones out when they occured.


@Jedorian, i posted a while back, with a link to Paizo's Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PRD for short, and it is updated with the latest errata and FAQ) and I've marked the important bit in Bold and Italics.

A whole lot of text about magical item creation:
Magic Item Creation

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price. Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies), but it does increase the final market price.

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.

The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).

A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under-construction item are wasted.

short of it is, crafting an item has a DC of 5 + CL and +5 for EACH requirement the crater does not meet (that would be feats and spells stated in the Requirements line, found under the big Construction word that's in bold if you are looking in the PRD)

@IshmaelWolf it is mentioned so highlevel crafters making wands wouldn't have to pay huge amounts of money for something that doesn't do more then what a lower level crafter makes
"The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp"

example, Wand of shocking grasp:
made by a 5th lvl crafter would do 5d6 damage, and cost 1 X 5 X 750 = 3750 gold
made by a 20th lvl caster it would do 5d6 damage and cost 1 X 20 X 750 =15000 gold

and they would do the same damage, would have the same chance of hitting and so on. I'd say that's why it's mentioned that you can craft at a lower level.


Talonhawke wrote:
Unless of course you as stated by Sean add +5 to the DC. The FAQs apply to all printings of the books not just to the ones out when they occured.

The FAQ in question was about a specific item, a Pearl of Power, and was talking about item caster level not the caster level of spells used to make the item, which as I just pointed out is our real argument.


Actually he says in that FAQ that you could even make a 3rd level pearl even though you dont have the ability to cast 3rd level spells.

More over if it is a prereq its still just as ignorable as anything other than feat for most items with a simple +5


Not to mention the absurdness this brings by this reasoning returning is harder to put on a weapon than Haste and lets be honest a +1 should be availble before a +3.


Mucronis wrote:

@Jedorian, i posted a while back, with a link to Paizo's Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PRD for short, and it is updated with the latest errata and FAQ) and I've marked the important bit in Bold and Italics.

** spoiler omitted **...

All you did was quote exactly the same thing I did, except you included the parts about time and money, which are not items of contention.

And the ability to make items below you maximum ability has always been part of 3rd edition, and is also not an item of contention.


Hell light fortifications also a +1 cant be done until 13th level at best.


Talonhawke wrote:

Actually he says in that FAQ that you could even make a 3rd level pearl even though you dont have the ability to cast 3rd level spells.

More over if it is a prereq its still just as ignorable as anything other than feat for most items with a simple +5

Because a Pearl of Power does not have any specfic spell requirements (i.e. no specific spell that you must be able to cast.)


Talonhawke wrote:
Not to mention the absurdness this brings by this reasoning returning is harder to put on a weapon than Haste and lets be honest a +1 should be availble before a +3.

<sigh> Both Returning and SPEED have a Caster Level listed in their requirements. And don't forget the quotes you guys love so much: "...spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."


Not to mention, a 25% chance to ignore Sneak Attacks and Criticals is worth waiting until level 13. Or you could just adventure like a normal PC and gather enough money to buy the items you want, which in my experience is always faster than item creation.


speed : When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can't catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinesis; Price +1 bonus.

Compare to
Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.

Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus.

The listed caster level for returning and speed is the level of the item not a prereq otherwise spell storing wouldn't be listing the line i bolded.

And unless I'm making a scroll staff wand or potion I can simply raise the DC for each spell I don't know.


Talonhawke wrote:

speed : When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.

Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can't catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinesis; Price +1 bonus.

Compare to
Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.

Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus.

The listed caster level for returning and speed is the level of the item not a prereq...

I'll give you that one. I misread the entries.

I still disagree that simply raising a DC by +5 allows a character to ignore a spell requirement for a spell they are 5+ levels away from being able to cast.


IshmaelWolf wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Not to mention the absurdness this brings by this reasoning returning is harder to put on a weapon than Haste and lets be honest a +1 should be availble before a +3.
<sigh> Both Returning and SPEED have a Caster Level listed in their requirements. And don't forget the quotes you guys love so much: "...spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."

Returning: Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinesis; Price +1 bonus.

here's a funny thing though, CL is 7 as it says, yet Telekinesis
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
And Wizards don't get a lvl 5 spell until CL 9.

so you can do a returning enchant, at CL 7 but u still need a lvl 5 spell so you must wait until CL 9 (unless u want to spend a lot of money on scrolls. 1 scroll of telekinesis per 1000 gold in the crafting price)

simply put, any and all requirements AFTER the Crafting feat can be "ignored" for a +5 increased DC.

IshmaelWolf wrote:
I still disagree that simply raising a DC by +5 allows a character to ignore a spell requirement for a spell they are 5+ levels away from being able to cast.

You can disagree all you like, it still won't change the fact that it is both possible and how it is done (however ignoring a spell they are more then 5 level away from getting access to is likely to have a very high crafting DC. Base 5 +high CL +5 for not having the spell itself)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Chemlak wrote:
IshmaelWolf wrote:
If you want to make a wand of fireballs, you should be at least of a level capable of casting fireball.

Bad example, since Craft Wand has a prerequisite of 5th level caster to take.

However, a wand of ice storm, on the other and, can be made at 5th level, by the crafter taking a +5 DC.

Actually wands, as they are spell completation items, have a special prerequisite:

PRD wrote:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

This apply scrolls, potions, wands and staffs, and is further supported by:

Potions wrote:


The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
Scrolls wrote:

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

...
The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
wand wrote:

The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required (one for each charge).

...
(That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

That requirement can be partially bypassed crafting something in cooperation, so that the one memorizing/learning the spell isn't the same person crafting the item, but you still need someone with the spell.


IshmaelWolf wrote:
I still disagree that simply raising a DC by +5 allows a character to ignore a spell requirement for a spell they are 5+ levels away from being able to cast.

You can disagree all you like, it still won't change the fact that it is both possible and how it is done (however ignoring a spell they are more then 5 level away from getting access to is likely to have a very high crafting DC. Base 5 +high CL +5 for not having the spell itself)


I'm not going to get back in to the actual rules question here, since I still feel you're just trolling (or close to it), but I don't think you've actually quoted anything. (Actually rereading your posts, you posted one rules quote from an older printing of the core book, though I suspect it hasn't changed in the newest printing.)

Ok, I said I wouldn't post on the main argument, but I can't help myself. You really need to reread the first page of this very thread where SKR (a developer) made it clear (due to others' confusion) that the FAQ does not apply to just the pearl of power and that that was just being used as an example.

There is nothing anywhere to suggest requiring a specific caster level based on the spells. You've quoted no rules, errata, FAQs or developer posts that would make me accept that as either RAW or RAI. And I wouldn't support such a thing as a house rule either for one simple reason: who's caster level are you using? Different classes cast spells at different levels and with the Master Craftsman feat you don't even need to be a spellcaster to craft these things.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed some posts. It is not hard to act like an adult. Also, I think this thread is done.

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