+1 Stat Bump Item?


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Sovereign Court

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Is there anything out there that grants a +1 stat bump? Everything seems to be in multiples of 2, I assume because you only get an increase in stat bonuses at even ability scores. But I've got a 17 Dex and would love an 18. 19 doesn't do me any good (in the short term, anyway), and I'd love to find something cheaper than 4K gp. Suggestions?


Officially the stat bumps come in twos. There is no item that grants only a +1 to an attribute.


Officially, no. Just even bumps. However, talk with your DM. According to the magic item creation rules, an item of +1 to a stat should cost only 1k. This depends on how prevalent magic items are, or if you (or someone in your party) bothered taking Craft Wondrous Item and have some down time, but it shouldn't be too much trouble to get.


Mosaic wrote:
Is there anything out there that grants a +1 stat bump? Everything seems to be in multiples of 2, I assume because you only get an increase in stat bonuses at even ability scores. But I've got a 17 Dex and would love an 18. 19 doesn't do me any good (in the short term, anyway), and I'd love to find something cheaper than 4K gp. Suggestions?

Belt of Dexterity +1 at 1000gp

or
Belt of Dexterity +3 at 9000gp

These are not standard items and will probably have to be specially crafted for you, but they are well within the rules.

Dark Archive

SO you know, the basic cost of a magic item that gives a stat boost is;

Bonus of Item squared times 1000.

The more you know!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Mosaic wrote:
Is there anything out there that grants a +1 stat bump?

It is against the rules. (no similar item is printed)

It is unfair.

It should be avoided.

All items granting stat bonuses should be in even amounts otherwise you have items that can not be priced (by the rules) since the item has different values to different people.

At best, the price should be the same as the +2 items since in the hands of a STR 17 player it is worth the same as a +2 in the hands of a STR 16 player.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
Mosaic wrote:
Is there anything out there that grants a +1 stat bump?

It is against the rules. (no similar item is printed)

No where in the rules does it state that it is against the rules to have an item that is not similar to something else in the rules. By that logic, no unique item or GM item would ever be anything other than against the rules.

Having said that, similar item is a squishy squishy way of stating this. A +1 item is similar to a +2 item (A +1 sword is similar to a +2 axe, for example). While there is no +1 or +3 ability item, there is nothing in the magic item creation rules that says you can't do it, there is just a formula of bonus squared times 1,000 gp for the price. So, theoretically a +1 is 1,000gp, and a +3 is 9,000 gp.

James Risner wrote:


It is unfair.

In what way? It could be said it's just as unfair to require someone to buy a +2 when they only need a +1. It all depends on perspective. Is it slightly cheaper? Yes. Is that unfair? That depends on the game and GM. Blanket statements without anything to back them up are little better than schoolyard arguments over who's dad can beat up who's dad.

James Risner wrote:


It should be avoided.

See schoolyard arguments above.

James Risner wrote:


All items granting stat bonuses should be in even amounts otherwise you have items that can not be priced (by the rules) since the item has different values to different people.

A +2 item is of different 'subjective' value to different people as it is, someone who needs a +1 or +3 finds a +2 or +4 to be worth less than someone who needs a +2 or +4. And, the rules clearly state exactly how much an odd +N item should cost, so your statement that it cannot be priced is wrong. Here is the link to where the formula's are given for pricing magic items. You'll note the formula is bonus squared times 1,000gp for attribute bonuses.

James Risner wrote:


At best, the price should be the same as the +2 items since in the hands of a STR 17 player it is worth the same as a +2 in the hands of a STR 16 player.

I'll turn that around on you, a +2 item is worth less to a 17str player than it is to a 16str player, while they both get +1 str modifier, the 17str player is paying for something he never get's to use (a 19str vs a 18 str), the 16str player is paying for, and getting full use of, the entire stat boost.


mdt wrote:
James Risner wrote:

At best, the price should be the same as the +2 items since in the hands of a STR 17 player it is worth the same as a +2 in the hands of a STR 16 player.

I'll turn that around on you, a +2 item is worth less to a 17str player than it is to a 16str player, while they both get +1 str modifier, the 17str player is paying for something he never get's to use (a 19str vs a 18 str), the 16str player is paying for, and getting full use of, the entire stat boost.

The item is certainly *not* worth less to the 17 str character, they both are provided a +1 modifier on strength, and both are left in the same position (as far as taking ability score increases) to get another modifier.

Just dealing with the direct effects of an item, a +1 item is worth 50% of a +2 - for half of characters out there, it provides a +1 modifier, where the +2 does the same 100% of the time.

That would price it at 2000gp. A +3, granting +1 50% and +2 50% could be priced halfway between +2 and +4, for 10000gp. +5 would be 26000gp. That would be somewhat indicative of Market Price.

Of course, given more than a single buyer, most sellers could find an odd strengthed customer, who would be willing to pay just as much for the odd bonus as the one right above (same effect to them after all), so should be able to charge the same price.

And all this nonsense is why there are no non-permanent odd stat boost items. (Until the Transmuter school ability, I could have left the "items" part of that sentence off).


The elegant thing about allowing only even stat bonus items is that the effect is the same for everyone who wears it. E.g., anyone who wears a belt of giant strength +2 gets a +1 bonus on Str-related stuff. On the other hand, if you allow a belt of giant strength +1, it's an odd item that may or may not give a bonus, depending on who wears it.

I'm not saying it should be forbidden, it's just clunky.


Majuba wrote:


Just dealing with the direct effects of an item, a +1 item is worth 50% of a +2 - for half of characters out there, it provides a +1 modifier, where the +2 does the same 100% of the time...

...Of course, given more than a single buyer, most sellers could find an odd strengthed customer, who would be willing to pay just as much for the odd bonus as the one right above (same effect to them after all), so should be able to charge the same price.

From a pure demand/immediate rule mechanics standpoint, the +1 item would cost exactly the same as a +2, but would have only half the number of prospective customers (the Odds would buy it at full price, the Evens would have no need to at any price).

However, this totally misses the point. The cost isn't based on whether an individual would gain a +1/2/3 to his or her ability modifier; it's explicitly based on the square of the bonus multiplied by 1000. Economics don't play a role in magic item costs per RAW. As a DM it would be completely reasonable to make a +1/3/5 item (perhaps much) more difficult to find for purchase, but that's a matter for each individual campaign. Per RAW there is NO reason such an item should be considered illegal or unfair.


A +1 stat bonus is just as valuable to everyone. Any boost is.

I mean say I have 16 strength and I have 1000 GP to spend and +1 stat boost item is for sale or make or acquire it some how. That boost to 17 strength is valuable. When I get 4 level stat bonus I can boost it to 18. That's definitely worth the money. Since everyone gets 5 +1 stat bonus over the course leveling from 1-20 that makes an odd numbered stat boost items of value to all. As well when it come to attribute damage and drain having one more is equally valuable to everyone.

The rules show how to price an item so use it.

Shadow Lodge

We allow it. It has only come up a few times, and has not been an issue. However, we also use the rolling method for stats, (never point buy which favors some classes over others), so your game might be different.


voska66 wrote:

A +1 stat bonus is just as valuable to everyone. Any boost is.

I mean say I have 16 strength and I have 1000 GP to spend and +1 stat boost item is for sale or make or acquire it some how. That boost to 17 strength is valuable. When I get 4 level stat bonus I can boost it to 18. That's definitely worth the money. Since everyone gets 5 +1 stat bonus over the course leveling from 1-20 that makes an odd numbered stat boost items of value to all. As well when it come to attribute damage and drain having one more is equally valuable to everyone.

The rules show how to price an item so use it.

+1

And I'd like to add that while in the case of 16 Str vs 17 Str the increase to the Str modifier of a +2 item is the same for both(+1), there are more things that are affected; encumbrance for one.
If the 17 Str fighter had ever his Str drained or damaged, then that +1 floating increment comes into play; so i'ts still valuable.
With a +1 item you would not have this benefit, yes it's cheaper but less useful also.

Sovereign Court

voska66 wrote:

A +1 stat bonus is just as valuable to everyone. Any boost is.

I mean say I have 16 strength and I have 1000 GP to spend and +1 stat boost item is for sale or make or acquire it some how. That boost to 17 strength is valuable. When I get 4 level stat bonus I can boost it to 18. That's definitely worth the money. Since everyone gets 5 +1 stat bonus over the course leveling from 1-20 that makes an odd numbered stat boost items of value to all. As well when it come to attribute damage and drain having one more is equally valuable to everyone.

Boosting a 16 to a 17 is not vaulable. You get no tangible benefit. No bonus to attack rolls, damage, or strength based checks. Saying that later when you hit 4th level it becomes useful is a non-arguement. When you hit that multiple-of-4 level, you no longer have an even score, you have an odd score. THEN it becomes useful.

+1 stat-boosting items, while not specifically banned, has been frowned-upon/soft-banned by designers for just this reason since 3.x edition was just a twinkle in WotC's eye. Yes you can make one for your home games, but it is not reccomended for the very reasons given above: they only give a tangible benefit to characters with odd numbered stat scores. If a 17 str character and a 16 str character want a stat boost to strength, one has to spend 2000gp to get +1 to str rolls while the other would only need to spend 1000gp to get the same benefit, if these items were allowed. Not fair, and you won't EVER find one in a WotC/Paizo official product. In fact, presence of +1 mods to stats in a product is a pretty good sign that the designers have no clue how the d20 system works and probably be avoided.


Pathfinder made it more expensive to achieve positive ability scores when using point-buy.

Allowing odd-numbered stat boost items undermines this change, and for 1k you can "save" points in point-buy character creation.

I wouldn't allow in my games.


James Risner wrote:
Mosaic wrote:
Is there anything out there that grants a +1 stat bump?

It is against the rules. (no similar item is printed)

It is unfair.

It should be avoided.

All items granting stat bonuses should be in even amounts otherwise you have items that can not be priced (by the rules) since the item has different values to different people.

At best, the price should be the same as the +2 items since in the hands of a STR 17 player it is worth the same as a +2 in the hands of a STR 16 player.

It is within the rules and there is no reason why it should not be allowed.

It might be of different value to different characters, but is that not the case for all items in the game? Or will you argue that a wizzard will be just as happy with a +3 bastard sword as a fighter specialized in said weapon? or will the fighter be just as happy with a blessed book? I can easily come up with a score of items that benefit characters to vastly different degrees.

The rules are there and you might find it clunky or cheesy, but it is still within the rules and und at the GMs discretion to introduce.

But "unfair"? come on...

Even modifier ability score items are as arbitrary as odd items are. The only difference is that many characters will strive to even all scoreas ASAP and therefore benefit less. This sort of item could actually make players think less about scores and modifiers.


Twowlves wrote:
If a 17 str character and a 16 str character want a stat boost to strength, one has to spend 2000gp to get +1 to str rolls while the other would only need to spend 1000gp to get the same benefit, if these items were allowed.

Think that should be 4000 and 1000!


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

we allow it in my group, never thought otherwise. The item creation rules allow it, so but as people say its non-standard, so we usually have them be rare or custom made. But I like it because i like giving out gear that helps my players and i can do it at earlier levels then i can with the more expensive +2 item. I honestly dont see how people are calling it unfair. But to each un to their own. It is definately not against the rules as the line in pricing magic items doesnt say 'even ability bonus squared...' it just says ability bonus. The price for it is clear in the rules and its a useful item to certain pcs. I would always allow it.


Twowlves wrote:


Boosting a 16 to a 17 is not vaulable. You get no tangible benefit. No bonus to attack rolls, damage, or strength based checks. Saying that later when you hit 4th level it becomes useful is a non-arguement. When you hit that multiple-of-4 level, you no longer have an even score, you have an odd score. THEN it becomes useful.

+1 stat-boosting items, while not specifically banned, has been frowned-upon/soft-banned by designers for just this reason since 3.x edition was just a twinkle in WotC's eye. Yes you can make one for your home games, but it is not reccomended for the very reasons given above: they only give a tangible benefit to characters with odd numbered stat scores. If a 17 str character and a 16 str character want a stat boost to strength, one has to spend 2000gp to get +1 to str rolls while the other would only need to spend 1000gp to get the same benefit, if these items were allowed. Not fair, and you won't EVER find one in a WotC/Paizo official product. In fact, presence of +1 mods to stats in a product is a pretty good sign that the designers have no clue how the d20 system works and probably be avoided.

All considered I find the lower cost of odd modifier ability score enhancing items less negligeble. At low levels it will give a quick boost, but at higher levels it is of no consequence.

When the gold cost is compared to the point price af odd ability scores it really becomes trivial.

The main point here is that it is within the rules. Odd modifier items have never been banned.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I don't know if it adds anything to the topic of this thread, but the whole +1 stat bump item thing reminded me of a halfling pastry chef/wizard named Bosa I used as an NPC years ago who baked these wonderful magical doughnuts. Each type of doughnut granted a +1 stat increase for 24 hours (or at least until it had passed out of your system.)

I haven't sat down to figure out what a dozen of these delectables would cost using the Pathfinder rules but you're welcome to the idea.


Twowlves wrote:
voska66 wrote:

A +1 stat bonus is just as valuable to everyone. Any boost is.

I mean say I have 16 strength and I have 1000 GP to spend and +1 stat boost item is for sale or make or acquire it some how. That boost to 17 strength is valuable. When I get 4 level stat bonus I can boost it to 18. That's definitely worth the money. Since everyone gets 5 +1 stat bonus over the course leveling from 1-20 that makes an odd numbered stat boost items of value to all. As well when it come to attribute damage and drain having one more is equally valuable to everyone.

Boosting a 16 to a 17 is not vaulable. You get no tangible benefit. No bonus to attack rolls, damage, or strength based checks. Saying that later when you hit 4th level it becomes useful is a non-arguement. When you hit that multiple-of-4 level, you no longer have an even score, you have an odd score. THEN it becomes useful.

+1 stat-boosting items, while not specifically banned, has been frowned-upon/soft-banned by designers for just this reason since 3.x edition was just a twinkle in WotC's eye. Yes you can make one for your home games, but it is not reccomended for the very reasons given above: they only give a tangible benefit to characters with odd numbered stat scores. If a 17 str character and a 16 str character want a stat boost to strength, one has to spend 2000gp to get +1 to str rolls while the other would only need to spend 1000gp to get the same benefit, if these items were allowed. Not fair, and you won't EVER find one in a WotC/Paizo official product. In fact, presence of +1 mods to stats in a product is a pretty good sign that the designers have no clue how the d20 system works and probably be avoided.

I disagree. Going from 16 to 17 strength allow you to carry 10 lbs and still remain in the light load area. That alone can be worth it.

Arguing who gets +1 stat bonus for an item is silly. You might as well argue that every 4th level you should +2 to stats because it's unfair that the person who to odd number stats is getting better bonuses than the person who didn't with only +1. It's the exact same issue.

The only reason I see for +2/+4/+6 items is ease of use. I can apply them to anything and it gets a +1/+2/+3 bonus. There is nothing unfair about a +1 stat boost.


Velcro Zipper wrote:

I don't know if it adds anything to the topic of this thread ... [snip]

Well it certainly adds flavour, and a few pounds ;)

Sovereign Court

voska66 wrote:
I disagree. Going from 16 to 17 strength allow you to carry 10 lbs and still remain in the light load area. That alone can be worth it.

An item that gives an increase to encumberance capacity is different than an item that increases incumberance due to increasing strength. A 16 str character and a 17 str character both get the same proportional increase to carrying capacity, but the 17 str character gets that and more. For the same price. Arguing that the price for a +1 item is negligble doesn't hold water, when you should be comparing the savings of a +5 boost item to a +6 booster (25,000gp vs 36,000gp is NOT insignificant). Saying that some items are better suited to some classes than other is apples and oranges as well. All classes are dependant to some degree on their respective "prime requisites". Stat boosters are universally useful. It's "within the rules" to get a huge discount on your items by making them restricted by alignment or class too, but that isn't recommended either. The item creation rules are guidelines, and some items shouldn't be allowed for good reasons.

Look, you guys can argue why a +1 stat boost item is fair, or no big deal, or whatever you like. I'm just telling you all {i]why[/i] it's not fair, and why you will never see a +odd-numbered stat bost item in an official Pathfinder product. It's something the original designers of 3rd edition addressed, it was their call at the time, and that's the way it is. Whatever you choose to do in your own home game is up to you, but that is not what the designers intended, I've given the reason why the designers came to that conclusion, and you should not only never expect to see such an item in an official product but also understand why it's an unfair advantage to half the characters out there.


For homebrew, it certainly is within probability as a magic item. It also takes advantage of a hole in the pricing formula.

The squaring of the stat is intended to increase the price of the item. Obviously, 1 squared doesn't do this. I think it is better priced as a little more than Half the +2 item rather than use the math formula.

In a big enough city it would exist and it could also be made to order.

2500gld would be the price. Anything more is expensive and anything less is a deal.

3000gld would probably be enough of a jump that you could pick the slot it would occupy. Otherwise it would probably follow the trend of being a belt for strength etc. etc....

Sigurd.


Twowlves wrote:
voska66 wrote:
I disagree. Going from 16 to 17 strength allow you to carry 10 lbs and still remain in the light load area. That alone can be worth it.

An item that gives an increase to encumberance capacity is different than an item that increases incumberance due to increasing strength. A 16 str character and a 17 str character both get the same proportional increase to carrying capacity, but the 17 str character gets that and more. For the same price. Arguing that the price for a +1 item is negligble doesn't hold water, when you should be comparing the savings of a +5 boost item to a +6 booster (25,000gp vs 36,000gp is NOT insignificant). Saying that some items are better suited to some classes than other is apples and oranges as well. All classes are dependant to some degree on their respective "prime requisites". Stat boosters are universally useful. It's "within the rules" to get a huge discount on your items by making them restricted by alignment or class too, but that isn't recommended either. The item creation rules are guidelines, and some items shouldn't be allowed for good reasons.

Look, you guys can argue why a +1 stat boost item is fair, or no big deal, or whatever you like. I'm just telling you all {i]why[/i] it's not fair, and why you will never see a +odd-numbered stat bost item in an official Pathfinder product. It's something the original designers of 3rd edition addressed, it was their call at the time, and that's the way it is. Whatever you choose to do in your own home game is up to you, but that is not what the designers intended, I've given the reason why the designers came to that conclusion, and you should not only never expect to see such an item in an official product but also understand why it's an unfair advantage to half the characters out there.

I agree you will never see it any published adventure. If I was writing one up I'd avoid it too. In my games you'd only ever see +2 increments.

As for the fairness I see it as fair to allow +1 increase if you want to do that. Except that it adds a little overhead when applying these. It's simple to add +2 as that a +1 stat bonus but odd stats may or may not give +1. So if you are creating encounters it's another thing to keep track of.

As for argument on weight that was just to show there was value in having an odd stat. There is still value to having 17 over a 16 but having a 18 is lot better.

Contributor

A +1 Con item can make the difference between life and death in the case of con-draining poisons and monsters.

A +1 Dex item lets you win initiative ties that you would otherwise lose.

Everything has some usefulness, and if it were some unslotted item like an earring?

Hell, I'd make them a pair of earrings that give you the standard +2/+4/+6 if both are worn, and +1/+2/+3 if only one is worn, and let the backstory be that the earring's mate was lost. That sort of stuff should happen with treasure all the time.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

A +1 Con item can make the difference between life and death in the case of con-draining poisons and monsters.

A +1 Dex item lets you win initiative ties that you would otherwise lose.

Everything has some usefulness, and if it were some unslotted item like an earring?

Hell, I'd make them a pair of earrings that give you the standard +2/+4/+6 if both are worn, and +1/+2/+3 if only one is worn, and let the backstory be that the earring's mate was lost. That sort of stuff should happen with treasure all the time.

I'd probably allow it as an unslotted item. The main problem I see is the cheesiness of just paying for an odd bonus if you have an odd stat. There's a reason that even stats usually have a higher cost in PF point-buy, and getting a cheap magic item to offset an odd stat seems a little iffy to me. But, you pay more for unslotted items, so that would probably be fine.

Incidentally, yes, physical stats give you tiny boosts for odd stats, like for carrying capacity, initiative ties, and ability to not die until -con HP, but those are REALLY minor, especially compared to what you get from an even stat bump. Moreover, mental stats don't even get that. I'd be careful about adding +odd items, particularly crafted ones. +1 in particular is REALLY cheap.

Maybe count odd bonuses as 1.5, 3.5, and 5.5 for the pricing, to reflect that about half the time they act like +2. So, 2250 gold, 12250 gold, and 30250 gold for +1, +3, and +5 stat boost items. I'm not sure how that changes for the ones that benefit multiple stats, but it would probably be similar.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
mdt wrote:
James Risner wrote:
It is unfair.
In what way? It could be said it's just as unfair to require someone to buy a +2 when they only need a +1.

Actually, I'd say that the +1 item would be slightly more unfair than the +2 item because everyone will get an immediate stat bonus benefit from the +2 item, whereas only players with an odd stat value would receive an immediate stat bonus benefit from the +1 item.

With regards to the pricing debate, the odd bonus items would be worth next to nothing to some players, but worth nearly as much as the next even point value up to others. I do not believe the base "bonus squared times 1K gold" would be an accurate reflection (much like the pricing guidelines would not be an accurate reflection for a Ring of True Strike's actual value) and would likely Rule 0 that the magical quanta of stat bonuses is +2.

I do agree with you that reading the rules in such a way that you could only create items similar to existing items is... bizarre at the least, and counter to anything I've ever read before.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Craig M wrote:

From a pure demand/immediate rule mechanics standpoint, the +1 item would cost exactly the same as a +2

Per RAW there is NO reason such an item should be considered illegal or unfair.

Items are priced by similar items, then by dissimilar items of similar power, then by the bonus squared formula.

The pricing trouble of an item that depends on your exact stat is as follows:

1) It has no similar item equivalent except for +2 bonus items, so if priced by similar items you should price the +1 item the same as a +2 item.

2) It has no item of similar power, because no other item is worth substantially more to one (like the guy with STR 17) than it is worth to another (like the guy with STR 16 who would only get STR 17 with it.) The best action is to price it the same as a +2 item.

3) You can't get to the formula, because in step 1 and/or 2 you chose to price it the same as the +2 item.

The Grandfather wrote:
It might be of different value to different characters, but is that not the case for all items in the game?

Items are priced by how valuable they are in the hands of those who can benefit the most from them. So a sword in the hands of a Wizard is still priced by how good it is in the hands of a sword specialist. Same for BBB, it is priced by what a Wizard would pay.

--------------------

Many object to my unfair comment, and I guess I'm unable to understand the complaints. I was saying the existence of the +1 item is unfair to those that need a +2 item to gain a bonus. Not that it is unfair to the people that get a bonus from the +1, they are the one benefiting from the unfair existence of the item.


James Risner wrote:


Many object to my unfair comment, and I guess I'm unable to understand the complaints. I was saying the existence of the +1 item is unfair to those that need a +2 item to gain a bonus. Not that it is unfair to the people that get a bonus from the +1, they are the one benefiting from the unfair existence of the item.

Isn't this sort of like arguing that plate armor is unfair to wizards because they can't readily use it? Or perhaps more aptly it's a lot like arguing that it's unfair to have multiple items with enhancement bonus's to the same stat since you can't make use of them all at the same time.

I'm just not seeing your arguement here especially given that every four levels you're either guaranteed to have an odd stat that could make use of the item or you'll be losing the need the for the item because you've put your bonus into the odd stat to make it even. (To say nothing of the benefits of additional stat points if you've been drained or suffered ability damage. Con bleeds in particular comes to mind.)


I really don't get this dislike of +1 items. I understand why they aren't in the core, +2 items are simpler mechanically. Basically, a +2 item gives the wearer +1 to hit and damage, etc.

That said, there are tons of effects, spells, and items alike that give odd numbered boosts/ penalties. Strength drain, strength damage, chill touch, ray of enfeeblement, Tomes, all give odd numbered boosts or penalties. Are you suggesting that somehow all of these effects are inherently unfair?

Maybe they should equalize things and make shadows do +2 strength damage so it's fair to everyone.

It's fine to have the most common items out there give a +2 bump, it makes sense and it's easier on the GM and players. But there is nothing wrong or broken about making one off items that bump a stat 1 or 3 points.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:

I really don't get this dislike of +1 items. I understand why they aren't in the core, +2 items are simpler mechanically. Basically, a +2 item gives the wearer +1 to hit and damage, etc.

That said, there are tons of effects, spells, and items alike that give odd numbered boosts/ penalties. Strength drain, strength damage, chill touch, ray of enfeeblement, Tomes, all give odd numbered boosts or penalties. Are you suggesting that somehow all of these effects are inherently unfair?

Maybe they should equalize things and make shadows do +2 strength damage so it's fair to everyone.

It's fine to have the most common items out there give a +2 bump, it makes sense and it's easier on the GM and players. But there is nothing wrong or broken about making one off items that bump a stat 1 or 3 points.

I concur.

Prohibition of odd stat bump items unfairly penalizes players that use Craft Wondrous Item. If my caster has an odd stat and wants to craft an item to boost it why would I craft a +4 item for 16,000 when I only need a +3 for 9,000!? What rational reason would there be for that? When I get to the next stat bump level I will simply improve the item. 7,000 buys a lot of stuff.

Sovereign Court

Bitter Thorn wrote:
Prohibition of odd stat bump items unfairly penalizes players that use Craft Wondrous Item. If my caster has an odd stat and wants to craft an item to boost it why would I craft a +4 item for 16,000 when I only need a +3 for 9,000!? What rational reason would there be for that? When I get to the next stat bump level I will simply improve the item. 7,000 buys a lot of stuff.

No, it doen't unfairly penalize them, it prevents people from unfairly taking advantage of the rules to get a benefit that others find no use in. Getting the same benefit from a stat boosting item at a cheaper price is not a penalty to anyone but to the people who have even numbered stats.


Another vote in favor of allowing +1 items. The reasons are:

1) there are construction rules in the core book for it.

2) there are now only two slots for stat buffing so it probably won't get out of hand.

3) moving from a +N to +N+1 bonus isn't game changing. It makes characters 5% more powerful in one dimension, but doesn't break the game.

4) if you are buffing a core stat, it will likely receive an increment every 4 levels, which makes the stat odd again unless you invest more in the buffing item.

With that being said, I'd probably have a bit of a problem if I started a new game at an advanced PC level, and all PCs came in with odd stats and buffing items for all stats across the board. But, if they start at first level, suffer for several levels with odd stats, and plan to craft specialized items as they go, that's another story.


Twowlves wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:
Prohibition of odd stat bump items unfairly penalizes players that use Craft Wondrous Item. If my caster has an odd stat and wants to craft an item to boost it why would I craft a +4 item for 16,000 when I only need a +3 for 9,000!? What rational reason would there be for that? When I get to the next stat bump level I will simply improve the item. 7,000 buys a lot of stuff.
No, it doen't unfairly penalize them, it prevents people from unfairly taking advantage of the rules to get a benefit that others find no use in. Getting the same benefit from a stat boosting item at a cheaper price is not a penalty to anyone but to the people who have even numbered stats.

Then why not eliminate all the books that give +1/+3/+5 bonuses as well? Not everyone is going to benefit from a +1 bonus to an ability score at that time. In 4 levels, you can boost the same stat and then profit. Yes, anyone can profit from a +2 item but only 50% of the population can gain from a +1 item. That applies until that 50% of the population gets a stat boost at level 4/8/12/16/20 or reads a book +1. So what if you have an even numbered score and a +1 item won't give you an additional +1 on die rolls? In 4 levels it might. And it can still be sold.

Also, in one of the 6 stats every point matters: Strength. Sure, you don't get +1 to hit and damage when you move from 8 to 9 Strength, but you do get better carrying capacity.

Finally, if you want to use this logic, then you might as well eliminate all stat boosting items. A fighter can't necessarily boost his Charisma and get anything from it but the sorcerer would-no, wait, that's also unfair to the fighter. Guess we can't boost his Charisma.


FarmerBob wrote:
With that being said, I'd probably have a bit of a problem if I started a new game at an advanced PC level, and all PCs came in with odd stats and buffing items for all stats across the board. But, if they start at first level, suffer for several levels with odd stats, and plan to craft specialized items as they go, that's another story.

Eh... there are tons of stupid things people can do when they create high level characters from scratch so I'm not too worried about that.

FarmerBob - Are you a lactophiliac?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Just wanted to point out that many feats also have odd stats like 13, 15 or 17 as pre-reqs.

Also, as the OP, I just wanted to point out that (much as Lathiira mentions) I had all nice, even stats for levels 1-3, and then I got the ability bump at 4 and picked up an odd stat. I'll bump it again at 8, but I'd like to be able to do something with it for the next three levels. Thus my question.


Mosaic wrote:
Just wanted to point out that many feats also have odd stats like 13, 15 or 17 as pre-reqs.

Good point, odd stats can be potential valuable to anyone. Also for spellcasters, you need your spellcasting stat to be 10+spell level, and last time I check there were odd numbered spell levels so casters with an even score in their spellcasting stat can still benefit.

Let's be realistic. Is a +1 item as valuable as a +2 item? If there was loot and your fighter had a Str 17 and had the choice of picking up a +1 Str item or a +2 Str item, which would they choose? Most likely the +2 Str item, because it is more valuable in both short run (higher carrying capacity, can take more strength damage) and in the long run (gets them closer to Str 20). Now that we have agreed on the assumption that the higher the score the more valuable the item, the question then is just a matter of cost.

My suggestion for odd items, make the cost = (adjustment)*(adjustment+1)*1000. For evens keep it = (adjustment)^2*1000. Thus you'd get:
+1 = 2000 gp
+2 = 4000 gp
+3 = 12000 gp
+4 = 16000 gp
+5 = 30000 gp
+6 = 36000 gp
It is a nice easy calculation, and stays close enough to the standard formula, but still makes the odds a bit more pricey to satisfy the people upset about odd bonuses.

Sovereign Court

+1 stat bump items would be a bit wonky. They'd be super lame if you just randomly found them in treasure, and almost too good to craft yourself.

There are people that build characters with the expectation of finding those +2 stat magic items after all. Given how cheap they'd end up being for +1, you'd see a lot of odd stats for a character who doesn't rely on them so much.

Contributor

Morgen wrote:

+1 stat bump items would be a bit wonky. They'd be super lame if you just randomly found them in treasure, and almost too good to craft yourself.

There are people that build characters with the expectation of finding those +2 stat magic items after all. Given how cheap they'd end up being for +1, you'd see a lot of odd stats for a character who doesn't rely on them so much.

I'm not going to twank the logic of my world based on what min-maxers do when then build their characters or what they expect to find in treasure hoards.

I think I'll include these items because they make sense and they're fun.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Morgen wrote:

+1 stat bump items would be a bit wonky. They'd be super lame if you just randomly found them in treasure, and almost too good to craft yourself.

There are people that build characters with the expectation of finding those +2 stat magic items after all. Given how cheap they'd end up being for +1, you'd see a lot of odd stats for a character who doesn't rely on them so much.

I dont know that they'd be 'super lame'. After all treasure is either tailored to the characters, or it has a good chance of just being sold off anyway. So whats the difference between a dm including a +1 strenght item to a party that doesnt need it and a +1 bastard sword when the party fighter is using a great axe (Note: im not talking about price, just usability)? Same thing is going to happen, its going to be sold.


Bitter Thorn wrote:

I concur.

Prohibition of odd stat bump items unfairly penalizes players that use Craft Wondrous Item. If my caster has an odd stat and wants to craft an item to boost it why would I craft a +4 item for 16,000 when I only need a +3 for 9,000!? What rational reason would there be for that? When I get to the next stat bump level I will simply improve the item. 7,000 buys a lot of stuff.

If you use Point Buy, you can clearly see that Pathfinder increased the costs for getting even numbered ability stats from 3.5. I think allowing odd numbered ability stat items is undermining that, allowing you to achieve better stats at lower levels.


stuart haffenden wrote:
Bitter Thorn wrote:

I concur.

Prohibition of odd stat bump items unfairly penalizes players that use Craft Wondrous Item. If my caster has an odd stat and wants to craft an item to boost it why would I craft a +4 item for 16,000 when I only need a +3 for 9,000!? What rational reason would there be for that? When I get to the next stat bump level I will simply improve the item. 7,000 buys a lot of stuff.

If you use Point Buy, you can clearly see that Pathfinder increased the costs for getting even numbered ability stats from 3.5. I think allowing odd numbered ability stat items is undermining that, allowing you to achieve better stats at lower levels.

Not necessarily, remember feats require odd number stats. Someone that purchases a 12 Dex, can benefit from a +1 Dex item if they want to take Dodge for example.

Also, am I the only one that upgrades items versus just buying a new version. Going from +2 -> +3 -> +4 feels more believable then only being able to go from +2 -> +4.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:


Eh... there are tons of stupid things people can do when they create high level characters from scratch so I'm not too worried about that.

I'd mostly be a little concerned about a starting 12th level fighter who enters the game with a belt of +5 Str, +3 Con, and +1 Dex, that was custom built for him in that order (25,000 + 9,000 x 1.5 + 1000 x 1.5 = 40,000). That's a bit too much power gaming for me, even though that may not be the best use of resources for the character.

Dennis da Ogre wrote:
FarmerBob - Are you a lactophiliac?

Probably more phobic than philic towards milk.


stuart haffenden wrote:


If you use Point Buy, you can clearly see that Pathfinder increased the costs for getting even numbered ability stats from 3.5. I think allowing odd numbered ability stat items is undermining that, allowing you to achieve better stats at lower levels.

Although, don't forget they had to change the point buy system, since the 3.5 system wasn't OGL. Generally speaking, a 25 point PF buy is generally equivalent to a 32 point buy (with some occasional differences).

For example 10, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14 in:

PF = 0 + 5 x 5 = 25
3.5 = 2 + 5 x 6 = 32

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Mosaic wrote:
Just wanted to point out that many feats also have odd stats like 13, 15 or 17 as pre-reqs.

Technically, ALL feats with ability score prereqs should have odd numbers rather than even numbers.

And that was done deliberately in 3e (and carried over to Pathfinder), because (other than the minor benefit to Str about carrying capacity) there is ZERO benefit to increasing a stat from an even number to an odd number. Feats were given odd numbers prereqs to encourage players to not simply target the even-numbered "sweet spots" for ability scores Or, to exactly quote the How to Design a Feat article by Jonathan Tweet and myself, "Note that if you have an ability score as a prerequisite, it should always be an odd number to encourage characters to develop their scores beyond the even-numbered 'break points' where the modifier changes."

In-game, odd-numbered stat bonus items don't make sense. Let's say Agar and Bron are, to all measurable ways in-game, exactly as agile, tough, wise, smart, or personable. Crug says he has a magic item that makes you little more agile/tough/wise/smart/or personable. Agar puts on the item and finds this to be true. Bron puts on this item and finds it has no effect. Why? Because the item is a +1 item, because Agar's ability score is odd, and because Bron's ability score is even. Thus, the +1 item works for Agar and doesn't work for Bron... and the characters will never be able to tell why. In fact, for 50% of the world's population, that item has zero effect. It seems random and arbitrary. Sure, you can say, "it's magic, we can't understand it," but that's a cheesy answer.

It's the same reason you don't give races odd ability scores: that would allow a player to hide an ability score penalty and still gain a bonus (if zorgs have +1 Str and -1 Cha, most zorg PCs will have odd+1 Str scores and odd-1 Cha scores, with a net racial ability score modifier of +2 Str, -2 Cha). It's cheesy.

Smart games give you hard choices. If your fighter just turned 4th level and you have the choice of bumping your Con from 15 to 16 and getting that nice bump to hp and Fort or bumping your Str from 16 to 17 and gaining no combat benefit for it (except that at level 8 you can bump it to 18) is a hard choice. Adding odd-numbered ability score magic items takes away that hard choice. Your every-4-levels ability score bump no longer is a question of "do I get a benefit now or plan for a benefit later," it's "do I need to buy a +1 item at this level, or not?" That's not a hard choice, it's a lame choice.

What these odd-numbered items really amount to is metagaming.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
In-game, odd-numbered stat bonus items don't make sense. Let's say Agar and Bron are, to all measurable ways in-game, exactly as agile, tough, wise, smart, or personable.

The only way this is possible is if they have identical scores (not bonuses, scores) in those stats. Remember, there's ability damage and drain, which works off the actual score in the stat, not just the bonus. There's a way to measure who is more <stat> than the other, even if they have the same bonus. I'll note that one of the more common initiative tie breakers is "who has the highest dex?" as well.

Sovereign Court

No one is saying "there is no difference between a 15 in a stat or a 14". No one. What the designers and the authors are saying is that any difference has minimal impact as compared to the HUGE benefit gained at a break point for a stat modifier.

The very fact that a +1 stat boosting item has a different game effect for two nearly identical characters and yet costs both characters exactly the same ammount of resources is reason enough to not allow them. Let me repeat that very slowly: the same item gives different advantages for nearly identical characters. NOT. BALANCED.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:


In-game, odd-numbered stat bonus items don't make sense.

You make a good case and I would consequently not encourage my players to seek odd modifier items.

However, the talk about "Smart games give you hard choices" is not very convincing. In the end it is a matter of economics. Do I pay 1,000, 4,000, 9,000, 16,000, etc?
The characters always have those same choices to make for their characters and usually they will purchase items to bump those scores as soon as possible. It is a question of a few thousand gold pieces and consequently I think it is far more effective for GMs to monitor gold than it is to make arbitrary calls about even vs. odd item bonuses.

Your first point about in-game effects has me convinced.
The second one about hard choices boils down to meta gaming and really has no bearing upon the game unless the GM wants it to.

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