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Ok, so I'm going to go where I thought I never would. Here, to you fine folks, to ask...
What makes 4E great? Why do you play? What is your favorite part of the game?
I'm asking not to troll or bait or any such thing, but out of genuine curiosity. Mostly because I am ALWAYS looking for shiny stuff that I can use to make my gaming life better.
I am an adult, and after a great deal of knee-jerk reacting to the very concept of 4E, I've come to realize that there may be a wonderful side to it and I would like to recruit your aid in finding that.
Help me Paizoboard Kenobi, you're my only hope!
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Not having played 4E and in fact not liking the bits of it I have read. I too am interested in answers to the OP. I have been a fan of DarkSun and am very interested to see what they do for it in 4E. Without reservation.
Ooh... they're converting Dark Sun? Shiny!!! I loves me some cannibal Halflings!
Hmm...
I keep answering this question and then realizing that my answers can be subsumed under larger headings.
* Play Balance is very strong and remains a constant even as new splat books pour out and across levels. What this means:
- your splat books are not making your older monster books to weak to use (caveat monster design has improved so there are some aspects of this but its more that some monsters play better now (are more fun - don't cause combats to drag) then that they are unbalanced).
- DM Prep time is much less about trying to create balanced encounters, in 3.5 if there were many splat books in play the DM had to spend lots of prep time getting the monsters onto something like an even playing field and thats no longer the case. In this regards it feels a lot more like prep time for older editions.
- Play balance means that you don't have to worry to much about some players just being cooler then others.
- Characters are comparable at all levels, you don't get a situation where a character that was really good at low levels is no longer really contributing very much to the parties succsess.
- There is no need to 'design' your build. A character is good at what it does more or less from the get go. You don't really have a situation where the character is finally realized if specific feats are carefully taken at specific levels. This feature meets particularly mixed reviews from players - for some people one of the most fun aspects of the game is carefully designing ones character and picking out every attribute the character will take 12 levels in advance so that when the character finally gets to 12th level it will be unbelievably awesome. In 4E what you get for doing that is minor at best (see play balance above) and your probably better off simply taking whatever makes the most sense when you actually get the level. If your a big role player you like this feature because characters grow organically (your choices are a response to the events that have befallen the character and not determined by the build the player designed in advance) on the other hand organically growing characters are not something you even bother with thinking about except at game time - no sitting at home tweaking builds for fun (well you can do it but you don't really get much compared to the players that don't - see also newbie friendly below).
* Philosophically the game has moved towards both Gamism and Narrativism and away from Simulationism. While these are all always points on a kind of continuum this is the direction 4E has headed. What this means:
- There has been an attempt to deconstruct what players like in playing their characters and to give that to them. Awesome moves are often considered a very fun part of combat by players and the entire system has essentially been redesigned to give players choices involving awesome moves. This is actually somewhat disguised initially because the players are comparing the fact that their 3.5 chain tripping fighter was really way more awesome cause he had a combo that allowed him to kill 4 storm giants in a single round at 9th level and he can't do that know (see play balance above) but once you get past the fact that 4E characters are just weaker then their 3.5 counterparts you can begin to see that really combat is made out of awesome moves but here there is variety instead of a focus on doing only 1 thing (like tripping) but doing it phenomenally well.
- This also means that characters are inherently designed from the ground up to operate in the major types of play in D&D. Most campaigns involve combat, non-combat skill based challenges and pure roleplaying/character development. The 4E design means that all classes are roughly equally good in all types of play instead of splitting things so that some classes are meant to be great out of combat but not so good in combat or vice versa the current design means that characters operate in both environments roughly comparably, giving the story a chance to unfold more naturally because you don't have to try and provide both in every session to keep your different players happy.
- The system returns to the philosophical split between rules for DMs and rules for players that existed pre 3rd edition. The DMs necromancer is able to raise armies of undead simply because the DM says that this is so. Essentially the rules recognize that mechanical restrictions only apply to players and they really exist for play balance purposes. Give the players Wish and suddenly you need to include all sorts of restrictions on its use so the players don't break the game. Give the DMs NPC wish and restrictions are completely unnecessary because the NPC always uses the wish to further the story.
- Following from above the game has been streamlined so that the DM does not deal with irrelevant (essentially story based) mechanics during prep. NPCs can do whatever the DM needs them to do to further the story. The Dwarven blacksmith that so great that he can actually repair the damaged artifact is not a level X anything unless thats required for the story - he is just the greatest Dwarven Blacksmith of his time - since his abilities are fundamentally story based the DM simply does not need to worry about anything except his role in the story.
- between increased gamism/narritavism and better play balance the DMs prep time has either dropped or reverted to being spent on things like player hand outs or working on the campaigns fluff or the story of the adventure.
* The Characters are newbie friendly. What this means:
- Its easy to make a character and be off to play time quickly. That character will be well balanced against even the veteran players. The abilities of the character do not take very long to grasp - you won't need to spend as much effort understanding the rules to run the character and choices will generally be good - you don't need some one else who is an expert to choose all your abilities in order to have a good character that contributes. That said the rest of the game is not so simple - tactical combat remains more or less as murky as ever and newbies are likely to become bewildered by all the conditions flying about as well as not grasp opportunity attacks or flanking (combat advantage).
Its paradoxical but one of things I like most is that WotC has spent so much effort making combat work really effectively in terms of balancing characters and making it newbie friendly etc. etc. etc. is that I spend a lot less of my personal game prep time worrying about combat. WotC has done this for me and because of that I spend my time doing more of the sorts of things I did in 2nd edition like focusing on fluff and stories. Or were I am focusing on combat its in ways to make the encounter about the encounters environment and how that will present the players with interesting challenges.
So in converting Age of Worms, when I'm not thinking about Skill Challenges then I'm taking the description of the broken down farmstead and trying to turn that into something more then 'here there be two Owlbears' and instead thinking about what happens to the falling apart house if there is a huge fight in the middle of it. Age of Worms does not address that but, since my prep of owlbears only takes 15 minutes, I spend the next hour coming up with how the house will start to collapse on the players during the fight and what happens if the owlbears start tossing players through the weak walls.
In 3.5, at least by the mid to late levels, I had no time for this as I was scouring monster feat lists to rebuild the monsters so that they could challenge the players. It was all I could manage to do that and still have an adventure for game night.
I love that as a DM I can create a story, and then create the encounters to go along with it effortlessly. Last time I was preparing for game night, I had the story all mapped out in my head, but I didnt have the encounter's fleshed out more than a heading. An example was wererat encounter or madman encounter. 15 minutes after I sat down to flesh out the encounters for the night it was done, and I had 7 shiny new encounters that were wholly my own and fit perfectly into the story I was telling.
I want to agree 100% with what Jeremy said, especially newbie friendly.
I agree completely with what's been said above.
I really suggest giving the game a shot, and making a concerted effort to put any preconceived notions of any particular prior editions of D&D out of your mind. If you're going into it looking for a game experience that is "Like 3.5 but better," or something similar, 4e will not live up to those expectations. If you are going into it looking for a really fun game of D&D, you'll have a much better time picking it up.
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Hmm, well everything upthread seems to very seriously ring in on the 'positive' side of things and all are Very Good Things to my perception.
My next question, in addition to the OP, is:
How much extra fluff material is actually REQUIRED fluff material? In other words, do I Absolutely Must Have Need the DMG2 and the PHB2? Do I need each individual classes power cards to play them?
This was another big concern that I would very much like to get people's opinions on, as any major book purchase must be careful run through the ROI filter.
Thanks in advance!
Hmm, well everything upthread seems to very seriously ring in on the 'positive' side of things and all are Very Good Things to my perception.
My next question, in addition to the OP, is:
How much extra fluff material is actually REQUIRED fluff material? In other words, do I Absolutely Must Have Need the DMG2 and the PHB2? Do I need each individual classes power cards to play them?
This was another big concern that I would very much like to get people's opinions on, as any major book purchase must be careful run through the ROI filter.
Thanks in advance!
Honestly you could get by with the players handbook (just for the mechanics), the DM's guide, and a subscription to wizard for everything else with the insanely good character creator and monster tools. Even the compendium rocks.
Or on the extreme cheap side. Download the introduction campaign with the character sheets, and get a subscription to wizard, and a 4th edition DM screen. Everything else can be gotten directly from the wizard subscription and their tools.
the only fluff you need to have is the fluff that you pull out of your head really. the dmg2, phb2 arent really necessary. the core setting of the system is called points of light. so, its kind of like the basic dnd that was published in 1978. you just need a village, and a dungeon. but you can really make anything that you want to make.
there really isnt any canon to worry about. the fluff is what you make.
if you use the ddi, then you have access to all the crunchy stuff, the character generator, and the adventure tools.
So far, with the exception of the 4e Manual of the Planes there is a pretty sharp demarcation between player and DM books, extending to even setting materials (however, Dark Sun will be an exception). For example, in Libris Mortis, large parts of the book were devoted to new options for players; its 4e counterpart, Open Grave really has no content appropriate for players (other than a handful of rituals and undead grafts, though there are no explicit rules for the latter). In addition, each of the books is very focused on its subject matter. Martial Power covers fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, not wizards or clerics. While the best part of the 4e sales model is that you can get all the crunch (update to date with the latest errata BTW) with a DDI subscription, you can, if you are so inclined, buy only the books that directly interest you and the first three core books can be purchased as a set relatively cheaply online.
One last thing, as a plus for 4e that I don't believe has been mentioned, one of the things I most love is the support for all 30 levels of the game. There are plenty of options for all levels of the game, from both a PC and DM perspective (that said, more epic level rituals and monsters are always welcome), and I think 4e is the clear winner when it comes to support for high level play.
Hmm, well everything upthread seems to very seriously ring in on the 'positive' side of things and all are Very Good Things to my perception.
My next question, in addition to the OP, is:
How much extra fluff material is actually REQUIRED fluff material? In other words, do I Absolutely Must Have Need the DMG2 and the PHB2? Do I need each individual classes power cards to play them?
This was another big concern that I would very much like to get people's opinions on, as any major book purchase must be careful run through the ROI filter.
Thanks in advance!
Really just the DMG, players handbook and Monster Manual. The problem as I see it is that the game has grown better with the release of some of the new splat books. I'd almost be tempted to say get PHB2, DMG2 and MM2 and go from there. There is also a bit of an issue with play balance when your just running core. If your just running core the game gets pretty tough on the poor players. I began to feel that the play balance felt 'right' only after the players had access to large numbers of splat books.
That said all of this crunch is essentially available with a DDI subscription - If you get one of those and the core books you can probably get by.
Finally if you were going to go pure 'core only' 4E and not use DDI then I'd say 4E core is PHB, DMG, MM, and probably Adventurers Vault and PHB2. You could start with just the core three but you'll find the last two bring a lot too the game.
Finally you might see if you can join a group to try it out, or borrow the books if you can - I'd hate for a gamer to make a big purchase and then be unhappy with it if money is a major concern.
Hmm, well everything upthread seems to very seriously ring in on the 'positive' side of things and all are Very Good Things to my perception.
My next question, in addition to the OP, is:
How much extra fluff material is actually REQUIRED fluff material? In other words, do I Absolutely Must Have Need the DMG2 and the PHB2? Do I need each individual classes power cards to play them?
This was another big concern that I would very much like to get people's opinions on, as any major book purchase must be careful run through the ROI filter.
Thanks in advance!
You don't need any of the for-sale Power Cards packs. They're probably nice to have, but ultimately they are functionally identical to the cards you print out along with your character sheet using the Character Builder (and the Character Builder has the added bonuses of doing the math for you and incorporating errata).
You certainly don't need to have the PHB2 or DMG2 or MM2 or any of the other books past the first three core books to play D&D. They help a lot, and I think the three books mentioned above are truly excellent products, but you will still have a great time playing D&D without them. Get a D&D Insider subscription and you suddenly have a huge variety of material available to you for much less than it would cost to buy any of the books.
The thing our group liked about it was the ease with which one can create or modify adventures. Our group is somewhat time-poor and we often dont have time to put in what is required to run a 3.5 game.
Hmm, I think that just about everyone has mentioned a DDI subscription as nigh-essential. What really comes with that?
Access to the Character Builder, which is a standalone program containing all current options available to players. It guides you through the character creation process, step-by-step, and automatically generates a complete character sheet including power cards based on the character you create with the program (which you can then print out).
Access to the Compendium, which is a searchable online database of all current D&D rules elements - everything that's in the Character Builder, plus monsters, traps, a glossary of rules, etc.
Access to Dungeon and Dragon magazines, which are online supplements that provide new material for players or DMs every weekday. New material from these magazines is incorporated into the Character Builder and Compendium, and receives the same amount of internal scrutiny that material in WotC's printed books receives.
Access to the Monster Builder, which is a tool that allows you to create or modify monsters by selecting a handful of details, with the option of literally dragging and dropping powers from any monster ever created for 4th Edition by WotC to add to your own creations. You can then save these monsters, print them, share them, etc.
More tools will be released in the future, though we don't currently know what they're planning on putting out next.
The character builder alone is worth the cost. I view myself as paying for that and getting the rest as free bonuses :)
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Hmm, I think that just about everyone has mentioned a DDI subscription as nigh-essential. What really comes with that?
Access to the Character Builder, which is a standalone program containing all current options available to players. It guides you through the character creation process, step-by-step, and automatically generates a complete character sheet including power cards based on the character you create with the program (which you can then print out).
Access to the Compendium, which is a searchable online database of all current D&D rules elements - everything that's in the Character Builder, plus monsters, traps, a glossary of rules, etc.
Access to Dungeon and Dragon magazines, which are online supplements that provide new material for players or DMs every weekday. New material from these magazines is incorporated into the Character Builder and Compendium, and receives the same amount of internal scrutiny that material in WotC's printed books receives.
Access to the Monster Builder, which is a tool that allows you to create or modify monsters by selecting a handful of details, with the option of literally dragging and dropping powers from any monster ever created for 4th Edition by WotC to add to your own creations. You can then save these monsters, print them, share them, etc.
More tools will be released in the future, though we don't currently know what they're planning on putting out next.
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Ok, that might just well be worth the price of admission. Hrmm..
Gorramit, I really don't NEED to buy more gaming books.
Like. Ever.
...
*mutters*
I might have to ask my wife for the core books for TWH.
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Hmm, I think that just about everyone has mentioned a DDI subscription as nigh-essential. What really comes with that?
Access to the Character Builder, which is a standalone program containing all current options available to players. It guides you through the character creation process, step-by-step, and automatically generates a complete character sheet including power cards based on the character you create with the program (which you can then print out).
Access to the Compendium, which is a searchable online database of all current D&D rules elements - everything that's in the Character Builder, plus monsters, traps, a glossary of rules, etc.
Access to Dungeon and Dragon magazines, which are online supplements that provide new material for players or DMs every weekday. New material from these magazines is incorporated into the Character Builder and Compendium, and receives the same amount of internal scrutiny that material in WotC's printed books receives.
Access to the Monster Builder, which is a tool that allows you to create or modify monsters by selecting a handful of details, with the option of literally dragging and dropping powers from any monster ever created for 4th Edition by WotC to add to your own creations. You can then save these monsters, print them, share them, etc.
More tools will be released in the future, though we don't currently know what they're planning on putting out next.
...
Ok, that might just well be worth the price of admission. Hrmm..
Gorramit, I really don't NEED to buy more gaming books.
Like. Ever.
...
*mutters*
I might have to ask my wife for the core books for TWH.
Well, depending on your tastes, it might wind up being a money saver. I know in 3.5 I tended to buy every book that came out that had that one little thing I, as a player, might want to use someday.
Now, in my dead tree purchases, I focus on books that have lots of material for me (the PHBs and "Power" books), and rely on DDI to fill in those odd items and features from the other books, saving me from feeling the need to buy all of them.
Hmm, I think that just about everyone has mentioned a DDI subscription as nigh-essential. What really comes with that?
Access to the Character Builder, which is a standalone program containing all current options available to players. It guides you through the character creation process, step-by-step, and automatically generates a complete character sheet including power cards based on the character you create with the program (which you can then print out).
Access to the Compendium, which is a searchable online database of all current D&D rules elements - everything that's in the Character Builder, plus monsters, traps, a glossary of rules, etc.
Access to Dungeon and Dragon magazines, which are online supplements that provide new material for players or DMs every weekday. New material from these magazines is incorporated into the Character Builder and Compendium, and receives the same amount of internal scrutiny that material in WotC's printed books receives.
Access to the Monster Builder, which is a tool that allows you to create or modify monsters by selecting a handful of details, with the option of literally dragging and dropping powers from any monster ever created for 4th Edition by WotC to add to your own creations. You can then save these monsters, print them, share them, etc.
More tools will be released in the future, though we don't currently know what they're planning on putting out next.
...
Ok, that might just well be worth the price of admission. Hrmm..
Gorramit, I really don't NEED to buy more gaming books.
Like. Ever.
...
*mutters*
I might have to ask my wife for the core books for TWH.
Yeah, that's one of the nice things about the D&D Insider subscription, though. Aside from a scant few, you don't really need many books if you've got the subscription. As a DM, you have a searchable database of traps, treasure and monsters in the Compendium, and as a player you have every option available to you through the Character Builder.
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Ok, so I'm going to go where I thought I never would. Here, to you fine folks, to ask...
What makes 4E great? Why do you play? What is your favorite part of the game?
I'm asking not to troll or bait or any such thing, but out of genuine curiosity. Mostly because I am ALWAYS looking for shiny stuff that I can use to make my gaming life better.
I am an adult, and after a great deal of knee-jerk reacting to the very concept of 4E, I've come to realize that there may be a wonderful side to it and I would like to recruit your aid in finding that.
Help me Paizoboard Kenobi, you're my only hope!
I haven't been a 4e fan from the release of the game, but after playing have seen that from a role-playing point of view 4e is no different than any other RPG, scope and depth to play what you want to play in a fantasy setting. Combat mechanics grate on me a little if I wear my DM hat and use of a battle mat grates if I have my players hat on - that said...
IF you are going to use miniatures in an RPG then I prefer 4e over 3.5e. Why? 3.5e has miniatures rules shoe-horned onto an existing system that attempts to mimic a system that was essentially miniatures free 1e/2e, 4e was designed from the ground up to have miniatures involved (the cynic in me would now point out that lucky WotC makes D&D miniatures - neat coincidence huh?).
As pointed out 4e is more balanced, which can translate to bland by comparison with 3.5e, but as 3.5e is also accused of being unbalanced may be this "blandness" is a good thing? What it does mean however is from 1st level everyone is doing something always. As D&D is a "group" game, again this can't be a bad thing.
Now back with my DM cap. 10+ years of DMing 2e (and before that 1e/OD&D) and never had any real battles with the players (meaning one or two unbalancing combat gods in a group of 5-6). 3e wasn't so bad and then even with only core rules 3.5e became "my sort of DM's" nightmare. I wasn't telling a story, most of the time angsting over changing an encounter so it would challenge the "norms" and the "min/maxers" - it became so tiring I stopped. DM's should have fun too.
4e would "seem" (meaning a DM'd 3 sesseions) to be a lot easier on DM's when it comes to challenging players as the difference between min/max'd and "norms" isn't so great. However, I hated the number of round to round things I needed to keep track of. Perhaps sometime soon I'll get back into DM'ing and give 4e a real go.
As a player of 4e, it's fun, same running around slaying Orcs I have always done in D&D. The mechanic of the slaying if different, but as I said IF you are happy with "board-game" combats 4e is a giggle fest (3.5e combats are also board-games). I had for example(meaning it sort of got murdered) a Druid that could actually run at something change form and then bash it. That in my minds eye really appeals :)
3.5e put A LOT of power in the players hands and for some the intellectual challenge of building a 3.5e character is part of the fun. Then using this build to "surprise" the DM by wiping out encounter after encounter. 4e puts power back at the feet of the DM, monsters do not play by the same rules as PC's (cf: 1e/2e).
Is 4e D&D? Frankly who cares, it's a fun way to spend time with friends. Arguments about rules a very few and very far apart (cf: 3.5e), and if you use the Character Builder then looking at a rulebook is uncommon during a game (oh, by the way no price for oil in the PHB...).
Ramblings,
S.
What makes 4E great?
The simplest answer I can give is this:
4E lets me concentrate on the game and my character/players.
I never need to look up anything; I only do so for a little inspiration or to buy time while I think of something. I can focus all of my attention on what is important.
The only thing we ever need to look up during game play is the page that outlines the details of the various conditions- like dazed, stunned etc... Everything else is basically on their character sheets. However, that we've now got a printout of the conditions page and we're getting to know that conditions well enough that we don't have to look at them often. There are actually less conditions than in 3E, but its more common for a character or monster to be under the effect of a condition (ie like being slowed, dazed or weakened)
The only thing we ever need to look up during game play is the page that outlines the details of the various conditions- like dazed, stunned etc... Everything else is basically on their character sheets. However, that we've now got a printout of the conditions page and we're getting to know that conditions well enough that we don't have to look at them often. There are actually less conditions than in 3E, but its more common for a character or monster to be under the effect of a condition (ie like being slowed, dazed or weakened)
The DM screen helps with this, too. A list of all the conditions is on the right-hand side, along with all their effects. Saves me a bit of page-flipping.
The thing that makes 4e great for me, is that it removes the need for much prep time, and increases the amount of things that everyone needs to think about during the course of game play at the table. We all getting older, have a busy job, partner and/or family as well as plenty of other commitments, and can only get together for a few hours every week or two, let alone spare much time for prep in between. So that change, from doing most of your thinking off the table to doing most of your thinking at the table, is fundamental to the success of 4e. Obviously if that's not your cup of tea then 4e might not be for you - I certainly lost at least one player in moving from 3.5 to 4e, but then again he was the player that caused me (and some other players) the most headaches in 3.5 so it wasn't a loss, it was a gain.
Having played all editions of the game for some time, I like the balance that 4e has: in some ways it is quite simple and open so you are more free to do what you want, yet it also has plenty of tactical complexities to engage our brains. The key thing is that, until you play a few sessions, it's very hard to appreciate how 4e actually works. Reading things in print, and actually experiencing them, are often quite different - things that you thought would work well, when you read them, might play out differently, as the various subtle factors involved in the 4e system are hard to fathom in their entirety until you see them in action. Especially if you are used to 3.x, as a lot of things just work differently, as the emphasis on things has changed. For example, maximising your chances to hit is so much more important in 4e than it ever was, for all classes, as there is so much more riding on each hit. Then depending on what type of character / role you are playing, other things come into play that differ a lot from previous editions, or example the controller often wants to impose big penalties on foes, and have those penalties last as long as possible (e.g. impose penalties on saving throws), while the leader wants to buff and remove conditions on allies, while the striker needs to find ways to maximise the number of hits and damage per hit, then of course the defender wants to tank effectively. The thing is the way you do these things in 4e is generally different than you would be used to under 3.x, and playing a few sessions is the best way to get your head around all the differences and properly appreciate what to focus on and what looks interesting on paper but doesn't really work. Because, unlike in 3.x where one or two characters can carry the rest of the crew in any given encounter, in 4e it really does require a team effort most of the time. Which I feel is the game's other main strength - it's more of a team game...
p.s. great comments above from Jeremy and Stefan, I agree 100%.
p.p.s. as Sebastrd & P.H. D. point out, our group almost never looks up a book during play - I have a one-page printout of conditions, and a one-page printout of all the actions and skills and what they can do - like the DM's screen but with my own scribbles added, and even these only get occasional reference as we slowly memorise them. Mostly it's just rituals that the wizard needs to look up, and I let the players look up books so I can spend time on running the game.
Same for all the book-keeping - I basically make sure the players keep track of everything except the monsters hit points - after all, there's 4 or 5 of them and only one of me, why should I have to do all the work? The 4e mechanics support this model really well, there's more complexity in a fight, but if you hand that complexity to the players, as DM you are free to concentrate on stuff that makes a better game, and the players are more engaged and hence having more fun rather than just waiting for their next turn (or worse, concentrating on something else completely). I find that under 4e, there is so much less annoying side-talk, as everyone is actually paying attention to what's going on (there's always potential they might be able to contribute, even if it's not their turn yet).
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Download the introduction campaign with the character sheets
You can get the Character Builder demo, quick start rules and introductory adventure on the Test Drive page
One of the points I missed, and it should have gone under Gamism, is that the game is designed to take into account what it is that players are likely to actually be doing at the table and what will make doing that most fun for the players and DM.
What I mean by this is that there is a movement away from giving players abilities either because it fits into the literary framework upon which fantasy games are based or because that is the sort of thing that we could do in 1st edition. Often this, on the surface, seems rather odd but it usually makes a great deal of sense from a 'we are playing a game' perspective.
Examples of this are the fact that its near impossible for players to fly and teleport, while commonly seen at low level in the hands of an Eladrin is otherwise very hard to come by. Invisibility is extremely rare as well and powers that emulate this sort of thing are likewise rare and even when found of limited use and usually short range. Finally its only at ridiculously high levels that you can use magic to answer questions. The DMs NPC astrologer that does not even have a class can peer into the future but the archmage that can come back from the dead - nope sorry - coming back from the dead is easy compared to getting some answers to your questions using magic.
In each of these cases the reason that the players can't utilize powers that allow for one of the above - even though they can often seemingly use other much more potent powers is fundamentally because we are playing a game about a story and each of these types of abilities tends to damage the story. If you can fly easily then its simply not relevant what kinds of hazards are on the ground. You can't have characters heroically fighting on swaying rope bridges suspended over rivers of lava if the players have access to flight magic. Almost every amazing scene we see in a summer blockbuster relies on spectacular terrain to imbue the scene with excitement and, because we want that in our games, its important that the players remain inexorably glued to the ground.
Another aspect of this is that our games are about stories and those stories are usually about the journey from point A to point B. From a story perspective the journey is at least as important as the final destination and stories involve obstacles. One has to get over the Mountian of Dire Doom or find a way around or under it and there are stories to be told about any of these but there is no story if you fly over it or if you teleport to the other side. So characters can't fly for long periods nor does teleport have the range or mass application for the whole party because this forces the players to choose a more mundane option in how they are to proceed on their journeys and allows for a story to be told about those journeys. Sometimes the DM wants the players to be able to fly about to tell the story he wants to tell - in such cases the players usually get their hands on something like a flying ship - but this is really something under the DMs control and even a flying ship generally just allows travel, you still can't easily fly once you have gotten off you ship.
Finally there is magic that answers questions and, similar to the above, most of the time the real story is in finding the answers to the questions. One can't have a murder mystery or a mysterious assassination of the king if one can just cast a spell to find out who the murderer is so such magic is near impossible to get ones hands on because access to such magic short circuits the story.
Hence, because we are playing a game about dramatic scenes and stories abilities that get around such scenes or stories is extraordinary difficult to come across and when found usually very limited in application, usually only effecting a single player and being of limited use and/or duration.
...and of course none of these restrictions apply to the DMs antagonists - they often have access to this sort of thing because their job is to present the DMs story and its often easier for the DM to set up their story with access to such abilities. The bad guys got around the Mountain of Dire Doom because they flew over it...but the players will have to track them taking a much more arduous (and more dramatically satisfying) method.
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On a side note - while I'm not really a 4e person, my players are asking for a one-shot 4e game to see what the fuss is all about. Anybody up to recommend me a solid 1st lvl module ?
Bear in mind that a) I don't have the time for home brewing, need premade stuff here b) Keep on the Shadowfell is not an option, downloaded it and didn't like it really - far too simplistic plot/RP-wise.
On a side note - while I'm not really a 4e person, my players are asking for a one-shot 4e game to see what the fuss is all about. Anybody up to recommend me a solid 1st lvl module ?
Bear in mind that a) I don't have the time for home brewing, need premade stuff here b) Keep on the Shadowfell is not an option, downloaded it and didn't like it really - far too simplistic plot/RP-wise.
Rescue at Rivenroar? First installment in the Scales of War adventure path. I am not too sure if it is any better than KotS, all of the 4th ed modules I have read so far have been rather thin plot-wise, but there is a really cool fight with an ogre chained to a wagon.
On a side note - while I'm not really a 4e person, my players are asking for a one-shot 4e game to see what the fuss is all about. Anybody up to recommend me a solid 1st lvl module ?
Bear in mind that a) I don't have the time for home brewing, need premade stuff here b) Keep on the Shadowfell is not an option, downloaded it and didn't like it really - far too simplistic plot/RP-wise.
Try this:
You can get the Character Builder demo, quick start rules and introductory adventure on the Test Drive page
I realize that you may not like the adventure, but it is not difficult to add more to the adventure in the way of roleplaying.
Rescue at Rivenroar? First installment in the Scales of War adventure path. I am not too sure if it is any better than KotS, all of the 4th ed modules I have read so far have been rather thin plot-wise, but there is a really cool fight with an ogre chained to a wagon.On a side note - while I'm not really a 4e person, my players are asking for a one-shot 4e game to see what the fuss is all about. Anybody up to recommend me a solid 1st lvl module ?
Bear in mind that a) I don't have the time for home brewing, need premade stuff here b) Keep on the Shadowfell is not an option, downloaded it and didn't like it really - far too simplistic plot/RP-wise.
I ran through that - can't say I'd recommend it.
Your hardest part of playing 4E, is accepting the system, including changes from 3E. This is not easily obtained in one or two gaming sessions; even with a highly recommended module.
I was on the fence for quite a while, and it wasn't until playing 4E for a couple months, and then trying to go back to older systems like 3E/2E or Gurps 3rd or 4th that I started to appreciate 4E on its own merits.
I would almost recommend buidling your own encounter, as that is one of the selling points for 4E. It also forces you to learn the mechanics.
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Your hardest part of playing 4E, is accepting the system, including changes from 3E. This is not easily obtained in one or two gaming sessions; even with a highly recommended module.
I would almost recommend buidling your own encounter, as that is one of the selling points for 4E. It also forces you to learn the mechanics.
I would say the hardest part about getting into 4e was the awful WotC adventures. Solid system let down by sub-par adventure writing in the initial stages of its release. Having a good DM convert/make an adventure is a better intro to 4e than most (all?) of the 1st level offerings from WotC.
The Scales of War they are talking about has (in my mind) the worst example of a skill challenge I have read, it's truly rubbish. All it does is cement the axiom, "4e is a board game". Experience has overcome my initial prejudice, and now I find 4e an excellent fantasy role-playing game.
Sad but true,
S.
I would say the hardest part about getting into 4e was the awful WotC adventures. Solid system let down by sub-par adventure writing in the initial stages of its release. Having a good DM convert/make an adventure is a better intro to 4e than most (all?) of the 1st level offerings from WotC.
The Scales of War they are talking about has (in my mind) the worst example of a skill challenge I have read, it's truly rubbish. All it does is cement the axiom, "4e is a board game". Experience has overcome my initial prejudice, and now I find 4e an excellent fantasy role-playing game.
Sad but true,
S.
I steered clear of WoTC adventures for a while because of this perception but have just begun getting ready to DM a campaign and Scales of War is going to be it. I was pleasantly surprised on reading the first few instalments as it was much better than I thought it would be - a fundamentally different approach to Paizo APs in that it doesnt try and tie the story to a world as closely, nor is there as much background information. That seems consistent with the whole '4th edition gamist, 3rd edition simulationist' idea. Although there's a fair amount of 'story enriching' that needs doing in Scales of War - it's pretty easy to do and I'm finding it quite satisfying.
Would you mind telling me which was the lousy skill challenge? I will confess to being the most daunted (as a prospective DM) by skill challenges out of all 4th edition mechanics. The one is SoW have read OK to me, but perhaps how they play out is poor.
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Would you mind telling me which was the lousy skill challenge? I will confess to being the most daunted (as a prospective DM) by skill challenges out of all 4th edition mechanics. The one is SoW have read OK to me, but perhaps how they play out is poor.
1st of the SoW AP (July 2008 | Dungeon 156), "This skill challenge is a social challenge that allows Troyas to determine the character of the PCs and also allows the PCs to take the job for the rescue effort..."
There are some great reasons to used the skill challenge system - this is NOT one of them. Sad removal of role-playing from a role-playing game. Leaves nothing for the PC's or the DM really to do except roll dice and hope.
S.
Would you mind telling me which was the lousy skill challenge? I will confess to being the most daunted (as a prospective DM) by skill challenges out of all 4th edition mechanics. The one is SoW have read OK to me, but perhaps how they play out is poor.1st of the SoW AP (July 2008 | Dungeon 156), "This skill challenge is a social challenge that allows Troyas to determine the character of the PCs and also allows the PCs to take the job for the rescue effort..."
There are some great reasons to used the skill challenge system - this is NOT one of them. Sad removal of role-playing from a role-playing game. Leaves nothing for the PC's or the DM really to do except roll dice and hope.
S.
Cheers. Social skill challenges seem like a fine line, although I always find the same in 3.5 as well - sometimes players inspiration runs dry and they reach for the dice and ask who has the highest diplomacy/bluff skill.
My plan is to try to run it the same as I do social interactions in 3.5 - namely to roleplay but allow players to utilise their skills "in the background" as it were. As I mentioned though, skill challenges are a little daunting - I think it would be easy to fall into the trap of rolling a bunch of dice, looking up results and narrating a result rather than playing out an interaction. I'm always sympathetic to the "My character is better at bluff than I am" argument...
I tend to blend skill challenges and encounters together so each influences the other. The first couple times were rough, because of players learning the new concepts, but once everyone is on the same page, it opens up another aspect of roleplaying that was lost in all the mechanics of combat. But this could be partly my own fault for loosing touch in regards to roleplaying when I first started gaming, but either way I am glad I added these to my campaigns.
There are some interesting articles on skill challenges on enworld and modifying the current system.
Cheers. Social skill challenges seem like a fine line, although I always find the same in 3.5 as well - sometimes players inspiration runs dry and they reach for the dice and ask who has the highest diplomacy/bluff skill.My plan is to try to run it the same as I do social interactions in 3.5 - namely to roleplay but allow players to utilise their skills "in the background" as it were. As I mentioned though, skill challenges are a little daunting - I think it would be easy to fall into the trap of rolling a bunch of dice, looking up results and narrating a result rather than playing out an interaction. I'm always sympathetic to the "My character is better at bluff than I am" argument...
I've not read the Rescue at Rivenroar but I have played through it and it had some issue that made it lest fun then either Bordin's Watch or the first half of whatever the third module is called (which is were we are in this campaign). The SKill Challange with the mayor appeared weakly placed and thought out. The mayor needs the players to accept the quest - there is no two ways about that - there can't be a Skill Challenge for th PCs to get more yummies from the mayor because the Mayor needs the PCs. Here is how it played out in my group - the PCs have a skill challenge with the Mayor which we fail and it seems he either has info or more reward or some such if we made it - so the obvious answer is 'failed skill challenge be damned - you give us whatever the hell it is your hinting at or we don't save your citizens - Capeche?
So somehow the DM has to do a Skill Challenge without ever hinting that the Skill Challenge is about anything at all...so no role playing during this Skill Challenge or you'll give away that itys actually about something and has some purpose. There are a bunch like that in this adventure too - save the prisoners and you have some kind of a skill challenge for them to tell you relevant details. Why they would ever hold relevant details from their rescuers - especially ones important to rescuing other towns folk makes no sense. Social Skill Challanges are particularly tricky because they really seem to require that the penalty for failure is the NPC won't help you - which means there needs to be another way for the PCs to get on with the story.
Rivenroar was otherwise OK in some areas but the only somewhat interesting encounter was one with a goul, the Kruthic fight was pretty good too except for the fact that its obviously a throw away fight. Part of the problem for us was that the encounters just seemed too easy but part of it is that most of them were not really all that inspired - just some beasties living in the dungeon. Bordin's Watch was where things really started to feel exciting for my group - so many excellent encounters.
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Thank you all for such incredibly wonderful feedback. This is EXACTLY the type of responses I was looking for. A mixture of 'this is what's good' and 'this is what I didn't particularly like' without getting into editionism.
My hat's especially off to Jeremy Mac Donald for such an incredibly detailed set of responses.
I've not read the Rescue at Rivenroar but I have played through it and it had some issue that made it lest fun then either Bordin's Watch or the first half of whatever the third module is called (which is were we are in this campaign). The SKill Challange with the mayor appeared weakly placed and thought out. The mayor needs the players to accept the quest - there is no two ways about that - there can't be a Skill Challenge for th PCs to get more yummies from the mayor because the Mayor needs the PCs. Here is how it played out in my group - the PCs have a skill challenge with the Mayor which we fail and it seems he either has info or more reward or some such if we made it - so the obvious answer is 'failed skill challenge be damned - you give us whatever the hell it is your hinting at or we don't save your citizens - Capeche?
So somehow the DM has to do a Skill Challenge without ever hinting that the Skill Challenge is about anything at all...so no role playing during this Skill Challenge or you'll give away that itys actually about something and has some purpose. There are a bunch like that in this adventure too - save the prisoners and you have some kind of a skill challenge for them to tell you relevant details. Why they would ever hold relevant details from their rescuers -...
Thanks for this perspective - reading a module is very different than playing it out. The Rivenroar encounters seemed reasonable enough. I hadnt fully appreciated the point you make about consequences for failing a skill challenge. I think you're exactly right that a social skill challenge has to be focussed on the players getting something they need - building it around the town recruiting the players makes the dynamic a bit odd if the challenge ends in failure.
Yep, I'm certainly no skill challenge expert, but the crux of the good skill challenge is that there must be a difference between success and failure, and failure should always be an option. In other words, if you want the PC's to get some info, it's not a skill challenge, it's role-play where, one way or another, you help guide the PC's towards where you want them to go. If, on the other hand, it's possible for the PC's to not get the info, and perhaps even make some enemies as a result of their failed negotiations, then that could well be a useful skill challenge. A skill challenge is only useful if it can result in at least two possible outcomes, and you want to challenge the players' PC's to determine which path they end up going down. Pretty much like a fight, except ideally there's a higher probability of failure in a skill challenge (as failure in a skill challenge shouldn't be as dramatic as failing in combat - the story will take a challenging twist, but that's about it).
The skill challenge experts that I do know of are the crew from At-Will, they have written lots of good advice as well as example skill challenges - here's a link to a starting place, they have others too so have a look around their site:
At-Will.HowToMakeSkillChallengeFun
Yep, I'm certainly no skill challenge expert, but the crux of the good skill challenge is that there must be a difference between success and failure, and failure should always be an option. In other words, if you want the PC's to get some info, it's not a skill challenge, it's role-play where, one way or another, you help guide the PC's towards where you want them to go. If, on the other hand, it's possible for the PC's to not get the info, and perhaps even make some enemies as a result of their failed negotiations, then that could well be a useful skill challenge. A skill challenge is only useful if it can result in at least two possible outcomes, and you want to challenge the players' PC's to determine which path they end up going down. Pretty much like a fight, except ideally there's a higher probability of failure in a skill challenge (as failure in a skill challenge shouldn't be as dramatic as failing in combat - the story will take a challenging twist, but that's about it).
Probably the most overlooked aspect of a Skill Challenge is failure. Generally I want to ask myself what happens if the players fail the Skill Challenge. You want the answer to be 'It'll be a cool twist to the story'. If you don't get that answer then you may well want to reevaluate the use of a Skill Challenge in this instance to see if you can make that the result of failure and if not then it may well be that this is not the best location for a Skill Challenge at all.