I thought these things were supposed to be player friendly?


Pathfinder Player Companion

Sovereign Court

Since when are players supposed to have NPC statblocks? I don't consider that player friendly at all, I consider that a quick way to an annoying conversation when my NPCs don't stick to the stat block, please tell me this was a one time mistake in the cheliax book and that we aren't going to be seeing NPC stat blocks in future companions.


They are in all of em as far as I know, not like ya have to use the npc listed.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

lastknightleft wrote:
Since when are players supposed to have NPC statblocks? I don't consider that player friendly at all, I consider that a quick way to an annoying conversation when my NPCs don't stick to the stat block, please tell me this was a one time mistake in the cheliax book and that we aren't going to be seeing NPC stat blocks in future companions.

We're skewing toward including stat blocks of NPCs that players can utilize as allies, after experimenting a little early on with including stats for key NPCs in the region. The basic idea is that the Personas are NPCs that a player might pick up as a cohort or contact or ally. Alternatively, of course, the GM can use the stats for generic NPCs or whatever.

Contributor

And those NPCs also have a section on what you'd have to do to their gear to elevate them from NPC-level gear to PC-level equipment, so if a player needed a new PC you could easily provide them with several pregenerated ready-to-play PCs.

But as James said, the main focus of that section is to provide fully-statted hirelings or cohorts for PCs. And unless you make a habit of keeping strange secrets about the cohorts (for which the PC spent a feat), the player ought to be aware of what the cohort can do, and thus they need the cohort's stat block.

Sovereign Court

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

And those NPCs also have a section on what you'd have to do to their gear to elevate them from NPC-level gear to PC-level equipment, so if a player needed a new PC you could easily provide them with several pregenerated ready-to-play PCs.

But as James said, the main focus of that section is to provide fully-statted hirelings or cohorts for PCs. And unless you make a habit of keeping strange secrets about the cohorts (for which the PC spent a feat), the player ought to be aware of what the cohort can do, and thus they need the cohort's stat block.

actually I find the entire section a waste of space as I generally work with the players in game to create their contacts and the players generally want to create their own stats for their cohorts/hirelings. So that's going to be a whole section I never use. Which in a book of only 31 pages is a lot.

Not saying it's a waste of space for everyone, just for me personally. Although I'd much rather persona's left stats out of it then you could fit in even more people than just four.

Contributor

There's no reason why you as a GM can't use those NPCs for other purposes. And you can work with your players to create your own stats for feats, spells, and traits, too; the point of these sort of books is that it provides these things so you don't have to.

As for leaving the stats out, the Persona section has always included full stats on one or more characters.

Sovereign Court

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

There's no reason why you as a GM can't use those NPCs for other purposes. And you can work with your players to create your own stats for feats, spells, and traits, too; the point of these sort of books is that it provides these things so you don't have to.

As for leaving the stats out, the Persona section has always included full stats on one or more characters.

I thought the point of the companion was to flesh out the setting with spoiler free information. Not to be a source for crunch. I don't mind having the personas stats listed, but I'd prefer that the most they came with was a tag after the name like Jimmy the cricket (rogue x/expert x) not a full stat block that may get used as is if the player happens to take leadership at exactly the right level. And then it's not even spoiler free if say I had wanted to use the elven queen and the players know exactly what powers she has. Or one of the characters from the cheliax book. Look it's just my opinion that stat blocks for people don't belong in a book for players. Feats, equipment, traits sure, but IMO not stat blocks for NPCs even if they are personas that from here on out you intend to have for characters who take a feat.

By the way, even if we disagree on stuff I really appreciate you guys weighing in. it seems like people don't really use this section of the board much so I was kinda worried, and yet here I am actually talking with two of the people who actually had a hand in the product. It's part of the reason I became such a Paizite.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

One person's spoiler is another person's player-friendly flavor, honestly. We aim to make the contents of the Companions player-friendly but still have enough information in them that they actually feel like they're set in Golarion. Frankly, when my PCs take enough interest in a game I'm running and actually seek out information on the world I'm running... I'm delighted. And since I have control of the world, if they accidently find out something I think is a spoiler, I either change the way it works in my game, ask the player to keep that info separate from his character's knowledge, or (usually) just roll with it.

Contributor

FYI the elven queen in the Elves book and the Ruby Prince in the Osirion book predate our conscious shift in the Companion line to be player-oriented. They are the examples of the sort of information players should NOT have in a player-oriented book: game stats on NPCs that, conceivably, the PCs may oppose in a combat situation.


Personally, I and my group liked having the ruler's stats for the Queen of Kyonin and the Ruby Prince. We were a little disappointed that this was not the case of Abrogail in Cheliax. Rulers is one of those things my group feels shoult be statted out in any nation sourcebook.

As a side note: Where are the stats for the Pactmasters of Katapesh? Did i miss them in Dark Markets?

-Weylin

Sovereign Court

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
FYI the elven queen in the Elves book and the Ruby Prince in the Osirion book predate our conscious shift in the Companion line to be player-oriented. They are the examples of the sort of information players should NOT have in a player-oriented book: game stats on NPCs that, conceivably, the PCs may oppose in a combat situation.

You mean your shift in the personas section of the companions to be player oriented, not the companion, the whole reason I subscribed from the very get go (as soon as they were announced) with companions was that they were advertised as spoiler free player friendly material fleshing out the world of Golarion. That was how they were advertised from day one. Which started with the second darkness player guide.

Sovereign Court

James Jacobs wrote:
One person's spoiler is another person's player-friendly flavor, honestly. We aim to make the contents of the Companions player-friendly but still have enough information in them that they actually feel like they're set in Golarion. Frankly, when my PCs take enough interest in a game I'm running and actually seek out information on the world I'm running... I'm delighted. And since I have control of the world, if they accidently find out something I think is a spoiler, I either change the way it works in my game, ask the player to keep that info separate from his character's knowledge, or (usually) just roll with it.

I'm delighted too, that was why I subscribed to the companions in the first place. Because they were billed to be spoiler free, and for the most part I've loved them, I am however making my feelings on the aspects that I don't like clear because I'd like it to be the best product it can be.

Don't get me wrong a statblock for the personas in the chronicles line and I would've cheered them and encouraged them. I just don't feel the limited use they'll be (that can't be easily covered without an actual statblock) necessitates them in the companions. And that's not to say don't detail people that can be used as cohorts and contacts, just don't stat them up and use that space free'd up for more generally useful stuff.

Sczarni

lastknightleft wrote:
You mean your shift in the personas section of the companions to be player oriented, not the companion, the whole reason I subscribed from the very get go (as soon as they were announced) with companions was that they were advertised as spoiler free player friendly material fleshing out the world of Golarion. That was how they were advertised from day one. Which started with the second darkness player guide.

Part of the issue as I understand it from the boards was that between editing/assigning writers and such was done for some of the earlier companions before the full niche of the companion was realized. This is also why some of the earliest companions were a little more crunchy/spoilery than the later ones (Osirion one comes to mind as having this issue), as deadlines required it to be written while the companion line wasn't fully fleshed out in its purpose yet. They've takes the feedback on the boards and adjusted them in various ways to make them more player friendly during the process, which included the re-purposing Sean talks about in the persona section.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The Companion line had a rough start. We didn't really have our heads wrapped around the exact concept about what we wanted to do with them, and things switched back and forth for a few while we figured things out and tried different approaches. That's why there were no Character Traits in the Osirion book, for one. Now, we've finally figured out what we want out of the line, but that doesn't change the fact that a year or even 6 months ago we were still sorting things out.

AKA: We're not perfect, and that means that sometimes spoilers leak into products that we're trying to make spoiler-free. Same for errrors and typos for products we're trying to make error and typo-free.


It's not something that would keep me from buying the companions per se, but them having stat blocks is a check mark in the consection for me. I redo just about every NPC in any supliment, so it doesn't matter that my players find out that Betty Boop is a low level rogue, as by the time I'm done statting her up she'll likely be a bardic psion. My issue is space. I would rather have a few more paragraphs of background and description of her than a hard and fast stat block.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

I personally like the statblocks. Most of the people I play with don't buy many of the Companions (or any other setting supplements) and certainly don't read them cover to cover if they do. I like knowing that I can toss in an NPC whose background I know if the players go left when they're supposed to go right. I also don't have a problem with players knowing the stats of their allies. I tend to give them a statblock or character sheet for anyone tagging along so that they can keep track of them in combat. It worked ok for Shelaylu, so I don't know why it wouldn't be fine for a random NPC from a setting book.

Liberty's Edge

Fraust wrote:
It's not something that would keep me from buying the companions per se, but them having stat blocks is a check mark in the consection for me. I redo just about every NPC in any supliment, so it doesn't matter that my players find out that Betty Boop is a low level rogue, as by the time I'm done statting her up she'll likely be a bardic psion. My issue is space. I would rather have a few more paragraphs of background and description of her than a hard and fast stat block.

I pretty much feel the same way as Fraust. I don't mind the stats, but I'm probably going to change it at least lightly to moderately anyway.

Most I believe can fudge or add stat details on the fly as needed.

Knowing "WHO" Betty Boop Rogue is from a personality, goals/amibitions/ roleplaying tips, are far more preferred, and probably less people are as proficienct in adding that level of detail on the fly to NPCs, than they are at coming up with arbitrary stats - if they are truly ever needed.

The presence of said stats won't make me not buy them, but I figured I'd chime in with my preferences, too. Once again, to mirror what LKL said - it is indeed awesome that the Paizo staff actually takes the time to listen and chime in on unsolicited criticism.

Robert

Sovereign Court

Yeah big addendum, I'm a huge fan of the companion line, I own every one of them. So don't think it's something I'm upset about and going to stop buying companions, but if I see something I dislike or would prefer to be done differently I'm going to tell you about it.

I'm the guy who brought it up when I noticed no traits in the osirion companion

I mean taking aside my earlier arguments because really I have great players that I can trust not to use spoilerific information. The stat blocks are just not going to see much use as is. Even players and DMs using them will probably have to either level them down or up, adjust their magic items. for me they require entire rewrites. I would enjoy the section much much more if all they had as far as stats went were Jemet Winderbole (CG halfling rogue 7) and then I can make him fit my world, hell even if my players take leadership and I was intent on using that character, I'd probably wind up having to take levels off of the character and spend time figuring out how much gear to strip to match his wealth by level since the player took leadership at 7 and the cohort has to be 2 levels lower. At that point it's just as easy for me to stat up a rouge 5 from scratch. So I'd much rather have the space wasted on the statblocks used for more personas, heck I bet you'd easily fit 2-3 more in the space you save.

Contributor

Well, if it appears that most people want the Persona section to change to more story, less crunch, we'll do that. After all, we want to make books that people will buy! As it is I'm shifting its focus a little bit more so it's partly "what is a character of class X from this region/race like" and partly "here is an NPC suitable for a cohort/hireling/upgradeable PC." If more people like the former material, we may shift more toward that sort of content.


I haven't been playing in Golarion yet so haven't had occasion to use any of the Companion-presented NPCs, but I do like their inclusion and the inclusion of stat-blocks. I haven't been playing/DMing as long as some, and I like having access to a rogue X/expert X (for example) NPC when I need to see one. I know how I make a character, but I like seeing how someone else makes an NPC because then I have to figure out why the character is a certain way when I read the stats.

None of my players presently buy the companions, but if they did, or, more likely, if they were reading one of mine, I wouldn't see a problem with them having access to the stat block of the NPC. It gives them an example of a character that fits the setting rather than just their own concept of how to make that race/class combination. So I guess I don't like it in the companion line necessarily because I'll get use out of it in the game, but because it is a good place for players to get exposed to a setting-appropriate alternative to how they might do the same class concept.

My players aren't likely to sit down and read a big book of NPC stat blocks (Monster Manuals and Bestiaries not withstanding), but if a single character is in a Companion book, what is effectively a book of player information, the player might read it and learn from it.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Well, if it appears that most people want the Persona section to change to more story, less crunch, we'll do that. After all, we want to make books that people will buy! As it is I'm shifting its focus a little bit more so it's partly "what is a character of class X from this region/race like" and partly "here is an NPC suitable for a cohort/hireling/upgradeable PC." If more people like the former material, we may shift more toward that sort of content.

Sean, I myself am a great fan of anytime an NPC is given for a location a short block of (Gender/Race/Class/Level)...whether it is a border guard captain or a pirate lord or a infernal cult leader. It was one of the things I really enjoyed about Forgotten Realms books.

I also like having full stats for VIP NPCs such as rulers, local arch-mages, high priests and such.

I have to say that overall though that I am a fan of static encounters...the wizard on the hill is 16th level...doesnt matter if you tangle with him when you are 3rd level or 24th.

-Weylin

PS Any chance you will be handling the elemental planetouched races for Pathfinder (Golarion or RPG)?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Having NPC stats handy if needed is a help. So for me the stats need to be published at some point somewhere. The question is should that be in the companion book or should the future be a bit different?

Me I would like to see a for each new AP for example a player friendly hand it over to them and not worry type companion for each AP and then a GM focused support chronicle book. One that helps a GM flesh out the world for the AP in the area and included some stat blocks etc.

I doubt paizo would agree with that but thats what I would love to see.

Contributor

Weylin wrote:
Sean, I myself am a great fan of anytime an NPC is given for a location a short block of (Gender/Race/Class/Level)...whether it is a border guard captain or a pirate lord or a infernal cult leader. It was one of the things I really enjoyed about Forgotten Realms books.

Keep in mind that players shouldn't know that the mayor of town X is evil or an assassin, which is why we only list gender and race for them in Companion books (unless it's obvious, like "the city's high priest of Abadar is obviously a cleric of Abadar...").

Weylin wrote:
PS Any chance you will be handling the elemental planetouched races for Pathfinder (Golarion or RPG)?

We haven't even started doing any work on what our elemental planetouched races are, so I can't really answer that.

Dark Archive

Well since were all throwing our opinions here I would say keep the persona section as is right now (Yes I know I complained about the removal of important Npc's at the time but I find the new ones very useful and flavour able).

Sovereign Court

I really applaud the creation of stat blocks for regions, I really do. But I just think they're better of in the chronicles books where you expect the stuff to be relevant to players and GMs, if there was an Osirion gazateer in the chronicles lines or isn't there a guide to darkmoon vale in the chronicles line? I think those things are perfect PERFECT, for stat blocks. and hey an evocitave description of a character can imply what kinds of feats and traits they have. If you describe the NPC as going into battle with her spiked chain weaving it in patterns meant to terrify and dazzle opponents then it's pretty obvious she's gonna have the feats exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain, and dazzling display, and i doubt there are many people who read a book about cheliax see feats for spiked chains in the book, read about her using a spiked chain and then say, I really doubt she'll take those feats :).

By the way, once again, no matter what you guys ultimately decide, I really have to applaud the effort you take to respond to us with your opinions. Just knowing that you know how I feel about the subject and take it into consideration really makes me trust that in the end you make the best decisions for your customers. Even when those decisions wind up being things I don't agree with (double damage against certain creature type smite, I'm looking at you! :D )


I'm not really a Golarion person, so I've only gotten the Cheliax companion since I'm playing a CoT PbP, and the Qadira one since I was GONNA play in a Qadira game, but, even if this product line isn't for ME, I'm still gonna weigh in on what I would prefer out of the same kind of book for settings I DO use.

The stat blocks are a waste of space in a player book in my opinion. Cohorts are taken at so many different random levels that a static stat block for a character meant as a possible cohort is essentially useless in my opinion, and unless an ally is specific to an AP (and a specific part of the AP at that, since we're talking about static stat blocks), then I'm gonna want to make my own allies specific to my campaign.

NPC stat blocks, in my opinion, belong in Chronicles type products, and rogues galleries.

That being said, I'm not really gonna be buying any more Companions, so I'm not really saying this for my benefit, just that, in my opinion, if you're trying to make the best player friendly books possible, the room on stat blocks could be better spent on fluff.

EDIT: I will be getting the Adventurer's Armory book actually.....

Grand Lodge

Personally, I like to see stat blocks both to show alternative options for character creation/development and to allow for that sudden and unexpected tangent by the players to encounter the NPC.

That being said, what about taking the stat block material and making it a web enhancement? That way, more printed page space is available for fluff. In the hands of the no-stat-block GM's, the players will only have a general idea of the NPC's abilities. Granted, they can still "cheat" and download the enhancement, but at least they actively have to do it rather than have it right in front of them. For the rest of us, we have a fully prepped and ready NPC to drop in whenever necessary.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

TwilightKnight wrote:
That being said, what about taking the stat block material and making it a web enhancement?

Web enhancements are expensive in terms of man-hours, and generate no money.


Fraust wrote:
It's not something that would keep me from buying the companions per se, but them having stat blocks is a check mark in the consection for me. I redo just about every NPC in any supliment, so it doesn't matter that my players find out that Betty Boop is a low level rogue, as by the time I'm done statting her up she'll likely be a bardic psion. My issue is space. I would rather have a few more paragraphs of background and description of her than a hard and fast stat block.

I'm with Fraust on this too.

I'd even settle for a Prestige Class for the crunch part as opposed to NPC's, tbh I was a little miffed the dwarves didn't get one.

Just feel the space taken up by full statblocks could be taken up by better things overall.

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