Unarmed Strike through Brass Knuckles?

[Reksew_Trebla]

So here is the thing. I’m seeing everywhere I look that Brass Knuckles do their own damage, and are not Unarmed Strikes, and it was a thing formerly that allowed them to do Unarmed Strike damage like a Monk, but I’m looking at aon, and it clearly says you can use them to deal lethal damage with an Unarmed Strike. This means you are doing an Unarmed Strike, including anything that comes with one, such as a Monk’s increased damage, but using the Brass Knuckles to actually hit, meaning you could enchant them without the need for an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Yet, like I said, everywhere I look, people are saying otherwise. Am I missing something?

[DeathlessOne]

Just use Handwraps

[Reksew_Trebla]

DeathlessOne wrote:

Just use Handwraps

That doesn't answer my Rules Question.

[Name Violation]

Brass knuckles have listed damage

Brass knuckles
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 17, Adventurer's Armory pg. 2, Advanced Player's Guide pg. 176
Statistics
Cost 1 gp Weight 1 lb.
Damage 1d2 (small), 1d3 (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type B; Special monk, see text
Category Light; Proficiency Simple
Weapon Groups Close; Monk

[Reksew_Trebla]

Name Violation wrote:

Brass knuckles have listed damage

Brass knuckles
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 17, Adventurer's Armory pg. 2, Advanced Player's Guide pg. 176
Statistics
Cost 1 gp Weight 1 lb.
Damage 1d2 (small), 1d3 (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type B; Special monk, see text
Category Light; Proficiency Simple
Weapon Groups Close; Monk

Read the description.

“These weapons fit snugly around the knuckles and allow you to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike.”

Explain this then. If you aren’t doing an Unarmed Strike with the Brass Knuckles, this line wouldn’t exist, but it does.

[VoodistMonk]

Isn't its listed damage the same as an unarmed strike...? Isn't it the exact same other than being lethal damage instead of nonlethal? I guess you can have cold iron and mithral brass knuckles to bypass DR.

Or are you asking about the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature?

[Reksew_Trebla]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Isn't its listed damage the same as an unarmed strike...? Isn't it the exact same other than being lethal damage instead of nonlethal? I guess you can have cold iron and mithral brass knuckles to bypass DR.

Or are you asking about the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature?

Not just the Monk’s Unarmed Strike, but any effect/ability that happens specifically with Unarmed Strikes. My issue is that it clearly says that you can use them to do lethal damage with Unarmed Strikes, but everywhere I look, people are saying you can’t use them with Unarmed Strikes at all, so I’m either missing something, or nobody bothered to actually read the description of how they work, which the Special section says to do so.

[DeathlessOne]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

DeathlessOne wrote:

Just use Handwraps

That doesn't answer my Rules Question.

I was trying to suggest a way you can use the damage of an Unarmed Strike rather than the listed damage of an unarmed strike (notice the difference in capitalization).

Creatures either have a natural attack or they have unarmed strikes. Normally, unarmed strikes only deal non-lethal damage. Monks, and other similar classes, are able to deal LETHAL damage with their unarmed strikes due to their Unarmed Strike class feature (which also boosts the damage). Brass Knuckles allow normal, non-Monk-like characters to deal lethal damage with their non-class feature unarmed strikes. Brass Knuckles, and similar weapons, are generally useless to Monk-like characters with Unarmed Strike class features, aside from being able to bypass certain types of damage reduction.

Does that clear it up?

[Andy Brown]

this post might help explain the situation. Brass knuckles got errata'd/modified, depending on which book you're looking at, and which printing

[avr]

The reason that handwraps were made is that the wording and intent of brass knuckles wasn't clear. You can dig up debates on this if you really want.

If you want to use brass knuckles I'd recommend using the rules for handwraps and reflavouring for this reason.

[Pizza Lord]

You deal the brass knuckle's listed damage when you use them.
For a normal combatant, this means that you deal the same damage as a normal unarmed attack (but it's lethal). This is redundant for someone with Improved Unarmed Strike (though they get the option of whether their unarmed attacks are lethal or not).

For a monk, this is typically a step down in damage. As a [monk] weapon, they can use brass knuckles in a flurry, but it will deal weapon damage (and any effects on the weapon) when they hit. As an unarmed attack it receives any bonuses that they get for unarmed attacks, like bonuses to hit, but it uses its own damage. Similarly, it counts as an unarmed attack for purposes of threat range, ie. if you don't normally threaten with your unarmed attacks you don't threaten with brass knuckles. Similarly any effects from hitting a creature count as unarmed attacks, like hitting a creature with Burn or quills or some acidic coating (though in some cases the GM might assign the damage to the knuckles rather than you... or both).

[Diego Rossi]

Armory errata - 07/21/211 wrote:

Inside front cover—Under Simple Weapons, move

the Brass Knuckles entry from Unarmed Attacks to Light Melee Weapons. Delete Unarmed Attacks.

Inside front cover—In the Brass Knuckles entry, change Special to “monk.”

Page 2—In the Brass Knuckles entry, in the second sentence, remove “with unarmed attacks.”

Armory 2nd printing January 2011 wrote:

Brass Knuckles: These weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch; they allow you to deal lethal damage. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you’re casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles.

APG 2nd print December 2010 wrote:

Brass Knuckles: These close combat weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch. They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you’re casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.

Ultimate Equipment - 2nd printing May 2016 wrote:

Brass knuckles

These weapons fit snugly around the knuckles and allow you to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make
a successful concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you’re casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles. Brass knuckles can’t be disarmed.

You see, the trouble is the text in the APG, but it has been superseded by the successive books. Without the text in the APG, when using the knuckles you deal only the base unarmed combat damage. Hardly worth it, even if they are made by special materials.

[Derklord]

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

My issue is that it clearly says that you can use them to do lethal damage with Unarmed Strikes, but everywhere I look, people are saying you can’t use them with Unarmed Strikes at all, so I’m either missing something, or nobody bothered to actually read the description of how they work, which the Special section says to do so.

That you're missing that it's said nowhere that the first sentence of the description only works when attacking with them as a weapon. The sentence stands alone. If you make an unarmed strike (with your knuckles) while wearing the Brass Knuckles, that unarmed strike can deal lethal damage (but is not a manufactured weapon attack and doesn't profit from e.g. an enchantment on the Brass Knuckles). You can still make a manufactured weapon attack, in which case you don't use any unarmed strike stuff.

Reksew_Trebla wrote:

This means you are doing an Unarmed Strike, (...) but using the Brass Knuckles to actually hit, meaning you could enchant them without the need for an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

No, it doesn't. They don't say you apply their enchantment bonus (or material) to unarmed strikes. All they change about an unarmed strike is the lethality, nothign else is in any way mentioned.