Oracle-General First Impressions


Round 1: Cavalier and Oracle

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Overall:
Awesome. This is just a really good class. This is actually the APG class I was least interested in AND I'm a grognard who hates new classes, but I still looked at this and went "Oh man, I'd play that". Bravo.

Artwork: I'm a big Wayne Reynolds fan, so there's not much else to say. I will say, however, that it looks nothing like a cleric to me, which is good.

Skills/Proficiencies/Skeleton: I like that their armor was paired down to light and I'm happy to see 4 skill points rather than 2. In most games I've played in, this alone will probably make the Oracle more useful than the standard cleric, if less powerful.

Focus: I'm a fan of these. On first viewing, I was concerned they were too strong, but, once you consider that these are a balancing factor against channel energy and domain powers, they seem completely appropriate. Picking your own revelation rather than having a set progression like the sorc or cleric is extremely player friendly. And, more importantly, these don't feel like bloodlines (which is what I was concerned would happen to the Oracle).

Oracle's Curse: My favorite feature of the Oracle. I'm a huge fan of classes that give power at a price. But, in D20 it can often be crippling, which is why no one ever wants to play a blind seer (till now). It seems like a lot of players nowadays don't want to have any downsides to their characters. But this, turning the weakness into an advantage, seems like the perfect solution. The only complaint I can make about this is that I'd like to see a few more Curses on the list. Really, though, overall, very cool and flavorful.

Liberty's Edge

Both classes are awesome. I immediatelly had the image of a Cavalier who has sworn an Oath of Protection, to safely bring a little child (who some say is a seer), with white eyes to an elven ritual place, where she is thought to have an important vision... (of course, the little girl is an Oracle).
Awesome stuff, and my players will jump on both of them.

And I am also thinking of having an Oracle (fire) for the CoT AP - Asmodeus and Saraenra - some great (maybe inner?`) conflicts may arise...

If the other classes are as good, the APG will be a BIG HIT!


I have actually been waiting for the Oracle with greater interest than the other classes, as it plays an existing role in our setting of choice.

Historically the Mystic (divine spontaneous caster in Dragonlance) has always had difficulty in coming across as a concept in and of itself......it's always come across as "Cleric light" more or less.

The Oracle really seems to be correcting this, and I couldn't be more excited about the potential I see here.
The class has unique flavor all it's own, and can truly stand apart from the Cleric class.

I'm really eager to see additional mysteries (focus), and additional curse options.

And the character sketch is AWSOME.


The oracle looks awesome, but I find it hard to believe that all those options are well balanced (at quick glance), will this become a power-gamers wet-dream? Hope not.
I like the idea of the curses, but there needs to be a few more options to cover more of a range of flavor. It would also be ideal if there was kind of a "default, or more generic" curse, kind of like the arcana bloodline, for players who don't want to role-play a gimp or the crazy blind-man who talks to god....just ideas...


I am extremely interested. Early speculations read elsewhere supposed the oracle to be a pathfinder equivalent of the favored soul...and indeed with the right focus and curse it can easily be...but within this preview lies the potential for so much more.

It brings an interesting versatility to fill a number of character concepts...and I am going to stare long and hard at my players to playtest this in my winter playtest campaign.

Sovereign Court

I like the concept, and I enjoy the foci, but the curses I feel are a major let down, they don't feel like curses at all, but just minor inconceniences for major advantages, here's a -1 to damage, have a +5 to attack, then at level 7 no more -1 to damage. I don't know, I'm gonna give them time to grow on me, just giving my first impression.

As for the foci I wish we could've gotten just one or two elemental foci and seen some of the more interesting foci rather than four elemental foci an undead foci and battle.

Sovereign Court

I must say, I'm really impressed with the Oracle. The one thing that I have problems with are the IMO limited options and versatility of Divine Spells.

The Oracle with there Revalations mix it up. Also the added spells which arn't from the cleric spell lists really shake things up.

I would say add a few more revalations and more Curses

Sovereign Court

Quick note again.

I wonder if all the new classes have something at every level like these two.

I understand the idea of giving items at every level to Keep from Over multiclassing. I just don't won't it to be so much so as to now penalize people for multiclassing.


lastknightleft wrote:
I like the concept, and I enjoy the foci, but the curses I feel are a major let down, they don't feel like curses at all, but just minor inconceniences for major advantages, here's a -1 to damage, have a +5 to attack, then at level 7 no more -1 to damage. I don't know, I'm gonna give them time to grow on me, just giving my first impression.

All of the curses give MAJOR disadvantages, and none of those disadvantages ever go away.

Clouded Vision: You can never see further than 60 feet away from you. Ever. That means you basically cannot target anything further than 60 feet away from you. That means your spells have an effective cap of 60 foot range (less than Medium range).

Deaf: You can't communicate with anyone who doesn't know some sort of nonverbal language, you can't identify anything anyone says in combat (which includes a hefty penalty to Spellcraft checks to identify spells as they're being cast). This is a huge penalty to battlefiend communication and group tactics.

Haunted: You can't be stealthy, because the spirits are always making noise. You can't benefit from Quick Draw or any magic items that improve the time it takes to draw gear (including potion belts and infinite scrollcases). Anything that disarms you (including things like holy symbols and spell component pouches) gets the benefit of Greater Disarm for free.

Lame: Your movement speed is crippled forever. Until and unless you get some sort of alternate movement type that isn't based on land speed and acts all day long, you're going to be slow. Note that this also penalizes your ability to jump.

Wasting: Good luck convincing anyone of anything or using the Use Magic Device skill.

Tongues: Your companions either need to waste a rank in Linguistics or settle for never being able to understand anything you say in combat. You'll never be able to use language-dependent spells with any effectiveness in combat (including things like charm person, dominate monster, etc).


I like the class. I'm very curious about the other foci, and would welcome more curses.

I might play one of those one of these days - a party of ours was wiped out except for my character, who will retire after this harrowing experience, and if the party should turn out to be without a healer, I'll go Oracle of Battle on them.

I also statted up an Oracle of Flame today, as an alternative interpretation of a character I'm playing (right now, he's a Paladin 6/Duelist 7, follower of Serenrae with scimitar and Dervish Dance feat. The general concept of a highly mobile dervish remains, including Cinder Dance and Wings of Fire, but the martial prowess is replaced with divine magic.)

The only thing that bothers me right now is the dearth of foci.


Oh, and the character sketch looks way beyond awesome!

Dark Archive

honestly like the death foci, its gives the possibility for a evil oracle with creepy powers. I am actually starting a Ptolus pbp and when I saw that it made me giggle. makes me want to put a death foci oracle in as either a villian or a creep lady who hangs out in graveyard and talks to dead peeps


My quick go through sees me liking the oracle. In my Falcon's Hallow campaing arc I now have a halfling bone oracle. I'll try to keep detailed notes about how it plays.

When I first heard about the playtest I wanted to make a certin villian of the first Rise of the Runelords book an oracle instead of what she already was...but was dissapointed in not finding any appropriate foci. Hopefully when the book is released there will be quite a few more. I love the concept and how it all works, it's just very limited right now.


To chime in with practically everybody else, Mystery (instead of Foci) sounds perfect!

I think the flavor text should be clarified (further) that their powers are not FROM any of the Gods, they simply "share an interest", so to speak, with Dieties of like Domains. Each Foci listing multiple Dieties should be seen as "Dieties with the same hobby as you" and not anything like a Cleric:Diety relationship.
I'm just saying this because of all the comments seeing them as associated with Gods, rationales why they should use (Cleric) WIS casting stat vs. CHA (CHA is good by me), and even requests that they not be tied to Dieties (which they aren't AFAICT, but people get this impression, certainly with each Foci listing multiple Dieties.) A better approach vs. listing Dieties might be to simply list sympathetic DOMAINS, which doesn't give the impression they are 'linked' to Dieties, but indicates powers they SHARE with such Dieties, and is setting-neutral.

...But the big question is:
So why does Oracle get 4 Skill Ranks but Sorcerors only get 2...? ;-)

Curses:
Clouded Sight: Why not say "You gain Darkvision" instead of "as if you had Darkvision"?
Also, ANYBODY with this Curse should have a bonus to SOUND Perception, which would make the over-all effect more reasonable for Darkvision races.
Doing this might make it a good idea to add some more specific modifiers to the Core Rules for Sound Perception, i.e. "Estimate Direction to 30* Accuracy", "Estimate Distance to 20': x/y/z/etc", "Estimate Distance to 10': "x/y/z/etc", etc..., with more specific penalties for Sound around corners, hard/soft cover & partial/full cover, types of sounds, background noise, etc.

Becket wrote:
How is the Wind Focus Revelation "Wind Sight" and Water Focus "Water Sight" affected by the Clouded Vision Curse?

It seems clear enough to me that Curse' range limit would still apply, you just wouldn't suffer concealment penalties from Fog within that range (for Water). If not, it should be clarified though. For Air, the "zero perception penalties out to 100' thru air' would be HUGE for assisting SOUND perception Checks for a near-blind (30' max) Oracle: I.e., Judging distance & direction (= square) is equally hard at 5' as 100' out... ESPECIALLY if it was clarified that the info pertinent to divinations (around corners, as long as path thru air exists) also applies to Sound Perception (i.e. ignoring penalties from cover, non-air-tight doors/walls, etc).

Deaf: *Realistically*, the Perception bonus should be at 1st level. I don't think anything else would need changing (beyond adding Sign Language to the game).

Haunted: I like, but I don't know if the penalties add up to eventually some good spells known, which even if they're not THE most powerful spells, are off-Divine list and extra spells known are always great for Spontaneous Casters.
...Why not say YOU CAN NEVER "TAKE 10", and/or a penalty to Dex/Str skills?

Lame: The -5' if Small should probably apply to Dwarves (i.e. based on Speed not Size)

Wasting: Penalty should probably not apply to UMD. (from Zurai)

Foci:
Battle: Great

Bones:
Spell List:
This is sortof a general concern, seeing it crops up in other areas, like Sorceror BLs:
Having multiple Bonus Spells which are essentially upgraded versions of each other (in Bones' case Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, in Elemental Bloodline's case 4 versions of Elemental Body) means a Class Ability that is supposed to increasethe breadth of Spells Known is not really measuring up: nobody needs EVERY version of those. In both Bones' and Elemental BL's case, implementing said abilities as scaling Class Abilities (i.e. Bones' Raise the Dead revelation would expand/scale to allow multiple uses for lesser Undead Types, Elemental BL could have an Elemental-only Wildshape) achieves the flavor intent and allows other, unique spells to add to their Spells Known repertoire equal to other BL/Foci. Being able to use a lower level spell slot IS a useful ability, but I don't think you really need 3 or 4 spells known to accomplish that - 2 at the most is all that's needed.

Armor of Bones: As written it clearly doesn't stack with Armor, though the DR would still stack... Still, either the Bonus Type might be changed to Natural Armor if the limited duration stays, or it seems like it could become permanent armor all the time...?

Bleeding Wounds: Great, as mentioned by others, the Channel Negative Energy reference is confusing... Though it makes me think this Foci (Bones/Death) would be the ideal Foci if Channel Negative Energy WERE to be accessable by one Foci as a Revelation. (Sun Foci would be the perfect one for Positive Channeling)

Raise the Dead: Should probably not be "Summon", but require the actual corpse right there in front of you to animate.

Soul Siphon: This just makes me cry that negative levels don't mean half what they used to (which mostly benefits casters). :-(

Final Revelation: Should read "...Once per day, you can cast power word kill, but the spell can *ONLY* target a creature with 150 hit points or less."

Flame:
Cinder Dance: Great, I almost want to see vertical surfaces qualify as Difficult Terrain you can move thru with the ability (not END your move on such squares unless w/ Spider Climb, etc), but it's probably pretty good as-is. I really like all these "Special Thing + Upgrading Levels of Virtual Feats" abilities in the various Foci seen so far.

Fire Breath: Come'on, just make it d6 and people will actually take it.

Form of Flame: Great. This is how Bones Foci and Elemental Bloodline SHOULD work instead ofusing Bonus Spells Known. If said Casters would like additional uses or whatever, they can use a normal Known Spell to learn said spell, and said Known Spell can be re-learned whenever they want, unlike fixed Bonus Spells.

Gaze of Flames: See thru Fire & Smoke: Good. See thru FOG: No. It doesn't have anything to do with Fire, it's an ability of the Water/Ice/Waves Domain/Foci. Instead, I'd add that they are immune/ have a bonus/ get 2 saves to Dazzling/Blinding effects from Fire/Heat/Light effects.

Heat Aura: This is good. Nothing over-powering, but bonus damage as a Swift and you don't really need to learn Blur as long as you don't mind using a Swift Action. ++

Molten Skin: On it's own this ability is great, BUT it over-laps with the Bonus (non-relearnable) Known Spell Resist Energy. Either the ability should work more like Protection from Energy, or Resist Energy should be taken off the Bonus Spell List and Protection from Energy added.

Touch of Fire: Seems slightly under-whelming. At minimum, it should scale up to Flaming Burst, and also specify that if said weapon already has Flaming it upgrades to Flaming Burst with this ability. If already Flaming Burst, it should maximize or something. ...Combining with Burning Magic somehow (it needs a Spell Level) would make it better.

Wings of Fire, Final Revelation: Great.

Stone:
Stone =/= Acid, Acid would be a great component of an "Ooze" Foci, keep Stone for the Stoners :-)

Skills: Survival - Really? How about a bonus to any Skill dealing with Stone (i.e. Appraise Gems, Engineering Tunnels thru Stone, Climb Stone walls, etc)

Spells: get rid of Acid Arrow, why not Glitter Dust? (Acid=/=Stone)
Why don't they have Earthquake as a Bonus Spell?

Touch of Acid: get rid of this (Acid=/=Stone), why not an ability making your natural attacks and spells/revelations BYPASS DR of Metal/Stone? Maybe upgrading to a Burrow ability (Stone Oracle can Earthglide, but not companions, and collapsing a cieling to block a room from enemies can be useful).

Mighty Pebble seems great, Rock Throwing seems a bit under-powered... ???

Clobbering Strike: I will just quote something

Beckett wrote:
Does the Stone Focus "Clobbering Strike" allow a trip attempt with a ranged spell such as Searing Light? What about one that doesn't deal HP damage?

Steelbreaker Skin: As mentioned by others, the MECHANISM of this ability could be looked at... If it's NOT using AoO's (i.e. it's a passive ability once activated) I don't think making active Sunder attacks is really the best approach: Why not apply Sunders as if you took 10 (or more?, scaling with Level?), which accomplishes the dynamic I think you're going for but doesn't need any roll, every time you level up/change stats you just update the "Steelbreaker Skin Sunder #". The damage applied could scale too? (or just apply consistent "Sunder" (object) damage each time you're attacked for duration = simple)

Final Revelation: apply MM only to EARTH spells NOT Acid: Become Immune to Acid instead

Waves:
As I mentioned in another post, WHY doesn't this have ANY abilities using Waves?
I seriously thinks Waves(Water) and Ice(Cold) need to be separate Foci, and can be viable in their own way without un-necessarily merging the two concepts. As such, I'm ignoring all the Ice/Cold Spells/Foci and mentioning only ones relevant to a "Wave" Oracle.

Fluid Nature: +4 vs Over-Run seems like it should be vs. Bull-Rush.
It seems like it should be EASIER to run past a Water Elemental.

Fluid Travel: Swim speed/ Water Breathing YES,
walking ON water should be reserved for ICE Foci (freezing the water as they move).

Punitive Transformation: Unsure about this, it makes sense as "Mutable" aspect of water in a metaphoric way, but that just emphasizes the point: get ICE out of WATER. "Ice" Foci Oracles shouldn't be all about polymorphing stuff, they should be about freezing it.

Water Form: Good, works like Flame Foci, not like approach of Bones/ Elemental BL.

Water Sight: Fog + Mist = GOOD (Flame shouldn't see thru Fog), why not extending vision UNDERWATER? (doubling range of whatever vision you have / halving perception penalties for distance)

Final Revelation: might want to update this if Cold is excised...

New Ideas: How about filling enemies' lungs with Water, drowning them? (single target/ AoE)
How about conjuring/controlling water to create a tsunami wave?
Flooding areas, hampering creatures without Swim Speeds? Blasting Jets of water (Bludgeon/Pierce damage, Bullrush effect, leaving pools of water= Diff Terrain unless have Swim Speed) ...Give some REAL Wave love! :-)

Wind
Spells: Levitate over-lapping with Haunted Curse was a good issue brought up by Beckett.
Other-wise, all the Spells seem great: Shield seems the only questionable one.

Air Barrier, Gas Form: Great

Invisibility: The current wording suggests you have to choose WHEN YOU ACTIVATE it whether it is Invis/Grt Invis and this applies for full duration (which is problematic if the same 'must be spent in 1 min increments' still applies). Activating it as Invis (by default) and using up Rounds of Grt Invis AS NEEDED seems the way to go.

Lightning Breath: Likewise with the Fire Breath, I think an upgrade to d6 would make it something that is actually taken more often... A Whirlwind Breath (lower damage, but Grappling them in mid-air effectively) seems more flavorful and interesting though.

Spark Skin: The name. Fix the name. :-)

Touch of Electricity: Like Flame ability, should upgrade if weapon is already Shocking to Shocking Burst, and maximize beyond that...

Vortex Spells: Great, not PREDICTABLY powerful, but very flavorful. A+

Wings and Final Revelation: Great


re Stone getting acid-based stuff;

Well, the four basic elements (fire, cold, electricity, acid) that are used in D&D traditionally get assigned to elemental planes, and Earth just got the one element that kind of made sense and it stuck. Besides, the Elemental Plane of Earth is probably the only one with enough ions sitting around to properly make any acids/bases in the first place. :)

EDIT: Also, if a spell needs an attack roll, you can crit with it whether it does HP damage or not. If it doesn't, you can't. That's really the only guideline on this.


I understand that, and why Earth Domain might work like that, but given Fav Souls didn't have Domains in the first place, the Oracle isn't really mapping to a class that need engender such expectations.

Acid would fit great in the repertoire of an "Ooze" Foci Oracle, but then you have major overlap in abilities that's completely NOT necessary. There's plenty of alternative abilities besides Acid that Stone Foci Oracles could have instead. Same for Water/Ice. The Sodden Lands seem like a great place for soggy, tropical Water Oracles to hang around, but having them freeze everything in sight doesn't really match the tropical setting. Likewise, a Cold Oracle wandering around frozen wastelands like the perma-Winter lands of Irrissen: Why do they need alot of Swim Speed/Water Breathing/etc liquid water-focused abilities?

I'm aware of the precedent (though I disagree), I just think the more specific focus of Oracles presents an opportunity to take a different direction. I guess I'll find out if Jason agrees :-)


Hey, I agree that Waves/Stone need more abilities that aren't based off of cold/acid. I'm just saying that you shouldn't remove all connection between them.

Also, if you make an Ooze focus then you open up the way to the other paraelemental planes, and no one wants to make a Smoke focus. :P

Really, if you can make it without it just being a more viscous Waves domain with a higher pH, I'll be glad to have it.


This is what I'd like to see in an Ooze Foci (here in 'new Foci' thread):
For Ooze, besides Acid abilities, paralysis would make sense, maybe a Magic-Jar type ability, but you actually exude an ooze which flows into them, X-Files Black Oil style. Ooze traits (flowing thru cracks, but other aspects as well: like being able to divide yourself/ when you're attacked) would be awesome, and maybe abilities to dominate other oozes...?

In other words, focusing on Oozes as Creature type, rather than '(Para)Elemental Damage', Acid just is one Ooze ability.
I don't want to see a whole Foci all about Poison either, without a better theme to pull it together.
(Vermin would be a good one, Poison + Disease... Plants make sense with Poison as well...)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Why exactly does the Oracle get four skill points, if it is the divine equivalent to the Sorceror? Kinda rubs the salt into the wound for people who like Sorcerors.

Not to mention that their class skill list is much better than the Sorcerors, too... :-/

Otherwise the class seems fine, but four skill points clearly elevates this class above the other full-casters. Power creep is not necessary, IMO.

Dark Archive

Davi The Eccentric wrote:
re Stone getting acid-based stuff;

If I wanted to rationalize it, I would say that the element of earth, associated with stability, has the power to 'steal solidity' from other things, causing them to melt and dissolve, hence, acid.

But I don't want to rationalize it. I loathe the idea.

Elemental effects of earth and stone should involve throwing earth and stone at people, not corrosive liquids. Water effects should involve water (and would be *much* more thematically appropriate to have acid effects, as liquid 'wears away stones' like rapid weathering) and ice (and steam), but not necessarily cold, and Air effects should involve wind and air (or *maybe* sonic) effects, not electricity.

magnuskn wrote:
Why exactly does the Oracle get four skill points, if it is the divine equivalent to the Sorceror? Kinda rubs the salt into the wound for people who like Sorcerors.

I don't think they looked at it as divine Sorcerer, so much as spontaneous Cleric. Compared to the Cleric, it's got less armor and weapon options, worse saves and replaces channel energy and access to two Domains with the Foci/Revelations (and Curse), which, IMO, don't even come close to equalling what's being traded from the equivalent Cleric. If by 'power creep,' you mean strictly weaker than a Cleric, than yeah, the Oracle is guilty as charged.

The Oracle has more skills than a Sorcerer, sure, but it's also got a better BAB than a Sorcerer, and can wear light armor, and has bigger HD, and in many other ways is not balanced against a Sorcerer.

If anything, the Cleric and Wizard, both of whom who go through extensive training in the development of their abilities, should probably get more skill points than their innate / inspired brethren, the Oracle and Sorcerer, but Paizo chose not to monkey with Cleric, Wizard (or Sorcerer, Fighter, etc.) skill points, other than to consolidate skills.

But that's a Path Not Taken.


magnuskn wrote:
Why exactly does the Oracle get four skill points, if it is the divine equivalent to the Sorceror?

Exactly, AND Clerics only get 2 points as well... 8-o ???

Set wrote:
Air effects should involve wind and air (or *maybe* sonic) effects, not electricity.

I'm actually OK with Electricity being in WIND (not Air), because Wind easily encompasses "Weather" as well as "pure Air", so it works. Stone & Acid, not so much (Acid RESISTANCE makes sense, but not 'offensively'). And I think separate Water and Ice/Cold Foci would be more distinct and interesting, plus the fact "Wave" Oracles have no particular abilities affecting/creating WAVES currently (encompassing both Water and Ice/Cold effects).


First impression:

Where's the Oracle of Knowledge? Seriously. Knowledge is (one of) the most obvious conception for the Oracle, and it's not even there. The list of foci feels short, and that particular omission feels really obviously lacking. I can't speak for each particular ability, because I haven't been able to mull them over that much, but there's definitely some interesting stuff here. Just doesn't feel right without knowledge, at least if you're actually calling it an "oracle."


Quandary wrote:
Why exactly does the Oracle get four skill points, if it is the divine equivalent to the Sorceror?

Exactly, AND Clerics only get 2 points as well... 8-o ???

Honestly, with less powerful casting than the cleric, weaker armor, weaker saves and (typically) weapon prof s, I'm ok with the extra skill points. Plus I can see how the extra skill points would be neccessary to make some concepts playable.

As for the sorcerer, that's a good question. Honestly, the sorcerer should've had 4, but backwards compatibility and all...


Velderan wrote:
Honestly, with less powerful casting than the cleric, weaker armor, weaker saves and (typically) weapon prof s, I'm ok with the extra skill points. Plus I can see how the extra skill points would be neccessary to make some concepts playable.

Undoubtedly,

I don't see a problem with Oracle getting 4 skill points, it just seems Sorcerors should as well... :-)

Disciple of Sakura wrote:
Where's the Oracle of Knowledge?

It's a PREVIEW at this point, y'know,

Supposedly further Foci (/Mysteries) WILL be previewed/playtest later when they're ready.

...Foci of Patience, where are you? ;-)


Mr. Subtle wrote:
The oracle looks awesome, but I find it hard to believe that all those options are well balanced (at quick glance), will this become a power-gamers wet-dream? Hope not.

You know, this was honestly a concern of mine at first glance. But then I thought, this is supposed to be balanced with the cleric. The cleric gets two sets of domain powers, channel energy, and slightly better spellcasting. It's also supposed to be balanced with Sorcerers, who get all kinds of bloodline powers and bonus feats. So, overall, the powers don't seem overwhelming to me, just good at first glance.


Quandary wrote:
Velderan wrote:
Honestly, with less powerful casting than the cleric, weaker armor, weaker saves and (typically) weapon prof s, I'm ok with the extra skill points. Plus I can see how the extra skill points would be neccessary to make some concepts playable.

Undoubtedly,

I don't see a problem with Oracle getting 4 skill points, it just seems Sorcerers should as well... :-)

Yes, but Sorcerers are spontaneous varieties of a class that gets the same proficiency and saves as they do. Wizards get better spell progression, sorcerers get better extra perks, and hopefully it all balances out.


magnuskn wrote:

Why exactly does the Oracle get four skill points, if it is the divine equivalent to the Sorceror? Kinda rubs the salt into the wound for people who like Sorcerors.

Not to mention that their class skill list is much better than the Sorcerors, too... :-/

Otherwise the class seems fine, but four skill points clearly elevates this class above the other full-casters. Power creep is not necessary, IMO.

Personally, I would rather see the Sorcerer get 4 skillpoints as well :0


On the subject of elements, it's always bothered me the way 3.5 handled elements. I'm hoping that, eventually, when PF releases PFII that they redo elements.

Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Spirit - Five main elements (asian style)

With lots of 'Sub' elements - Acid (Water), Electricity (Fire), Positive Energy (Spirit), Negative Energy (Spirit), Cold (Water), Heat (Fire), Sonic (Air), Etc.

So, resistance 10/Fire would resist Fire, or any fire subtype (Heat, Electricity), but Resistance 5/Electricity would only resist against electricity but not heat. I think personally that would be an elegant way to handle it. It would take a little rewriting, but it would work nicely. I have been pondering reworking this in my own campaign for awhile now.


Quandary wrote:

It's a PREVIEW at this point, y'know,

Supposedly further Foci (/Mysteries) WILL be previewed/playtest later when they're ready.

...Foci of Patience, where are you? ;-)

I didn't see any mention in the PDF that there would be others previewed or playtested. Where was that at? I would have expected that, with staggered releases for the six classes, we'd be seeing each class at its full "alpha," rather than seeing new stuff come out later on, since I thought we were supposed to be focusing on playtesting the class to its fullest during the allotted time.

I am obviously mistaken there, but I don't really see the indication in the PDF that there'll be more foci forthcoming. The class already takes up a ton of space comparatively as it is (it's already nine pages long). I'll be glad to see additional foci, but this still gives me the disconnect that the name doesn't even mesh to what I'd expect from the class. With the flavor text, an Oracle of Knowledge would be a good replacement for Cleric in an old NPC I had as a major villain years ago, but there's absolutely no focus that would work as it stands.


Disciple of Sakura wrote:


I didn't see any mention in the PDF that there would be others previewed or playtested. Where was that at? I would have expected that, with staggered releases for the six classes, we'd be seeing each class at its full "alpha," rather than seeing new stuff come out later on, since I thought we were supposed to be focusing on playtesting the class to its fullest during the allotted time.

I'm pretty sure Bulhman mentioned it in another of the Playtest threads.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oh, I would have liked four skill points for Sorcerors, too. Which is why I said that the Oracle having four is a bit like rubbing salt into the wounds of Sorceror fans.

And Diplomacy and Sense Motive should have been on the Sorceror skill list, too. -.-


mdt wrote:


Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Spirit - Five main elements (asian style)

What the hell kind of power is Heart(spirit) anyway ;)

(Captain planet joke)


kyrt-ryder wrote:
mdt wrote:


Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Spirit - Five main elements (asian style)

What the hell kind of power is Heart(spirit) anyway ;)

(Captain planet joke)

Well, it depends on which asian element you go by. earth/air/fire/water/spirit is relatively recent. Air/Fire/Wood/Water/Metal is the more traditional makeup, but it doesn't work well for an RPG targeted primarily at American/European audiences. Although I've used Wood as an element in my games without too much problem (changed it to Air/Fire/Wood/Water/Earth).


mdt wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
mdt wrote:


Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Spirit - Five main elements (asian style)

What the hell kind of power is Heart(spirit) anyway ;)

(Captain planet joke)

Well, it depends on which asian element you go by. earth/air/fire/water/spirit is relatively recent. Air/Fire/Wood/Water/Metal is the more traditional makeup, but it doesn't work well for an RPG targeted primarily at American/European audiences. Although I've used Wood as an element in my games without too much problem (changed it to Air/Fire/Wood/Water/Earth).

Actually, there's quite alot of magic available in D&D (Charm, Dominate, soul imprison, etc etc etc etc etc) that falls right into line with 'heart/spirit' and is actually rather powerful.

It's just funny in the context of the joke.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
mdt wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
mdt wrote:


Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Spirit - Five main elements (asian style)

What the hell kind of power is Heart(spirit) anyway ;)

(Captain planet joke)

Well, it depends on which asian element you go by. earth/air/fire/water/spirit is relatively recent. Air/Fire/Wood/Water/Metal is the more traditional makeup, but it doesn't work well for an RPG targeted primarily at American/European audiences. Although I've used Wood as an element in my games without too much problem (changed it to Air/Fire/Wood/Water/Earth).

Actually, there's quite alot of magic available in D&D (Charm, Dominate, soul imprison, etc etc etc etc etc) that falls right into line with 'heart/spirit' and is actually rather powerful.

It's just funny in the context of the joke.

Absolutely, I liked the joke. :) Sorry, hard to convey feelings via posts. Just the way my mind works, I laugh at the joke, and then continue on with the evaluation. :)

The Exchange

starting cash for both classes. I didnt find it in the descriptions, perhaps I missed it.


Only just skimmed it so far, but it looks pretty nice as an interpretation of "spontaneous cleric", and more flavorful than the favored soul. Two things though:

* Not a big fan of the curses, but that's a preference thing. I'd rather see that as a voluntary thing for them, mechanics-wise.

* Focus is a poor term, and "divine focus" even more so. Divine Focus already has a meaning in the game, referring to a cleric's holy symbol and similar paraphernalia used for spellcasting (denoted by DF in the component field of spell headers). Someone suggested "Mystery", which sounds much better.

Dark Archive

A divine spontaneous caster seems a logical role to fill, so I'm on board with the premise of the oracle. However a few things stand out to me flavor wise.

There's not a whole lot "oracular" to the oracle. Oracles are people who can see the future. But this class has no divination powers or bonuses to divination spells. There isn't even a divination focus. (Also focus already has a specific game definition as a type of spell component, so that should probably change).

Not a big fan of the light armor and shield. I'd rather have some inherent bonus to defenses to reflect their special insight.

I do like the curses though. It can be difficult to have disadvantages in a RPG because players learn to work around them. However this is an advanced player's guide, so I'm sure an experienced group should be able to work with the GM to keep it relevant.


Disciple of Sakura wrote:
Quandary wrote:

It's a PREVIEW at this point, y'know,

Supposedly further Foci (/Mysteries) WILL be previewed/playtest later when they're ready.

...Foci of Patience, where are you? ;-)

I didn't see any mention in the PDF that there would be others previewed or playtested. Where was that at? I would have expected that, with staggered releases for the six classes, we'd be seeing each class at its full "alpha," rather than seeing new stuff come out later on, since I thought we were supposed to be focusing on playtesting the class to its fullest during the allotted time.

I am obviously mistaken there, but I don't really see the indication in the PDF that there'll be more foci forthcoming. The class already takes up a ton of space comparatively as it is (it's already nine pages long). I'll be glad to see additional foci, but this still gives me the disconnect that the name doesn't even mesh to what I'd expect from the class. With the flavor text, an Oracle of Knowledge would be a good replacement for Cleric in an old NPC I had as a major villain years ago, but there's absolutely no focus that would work as it stands.

On page 11 under foci "The following foci are just some of those that will appear in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide. As the playtest continues, other foci will be made available through the messageboards at paizo.com."

The class might be taking up a good space (maybe even too much), but since the book would be as big as the Player's Handbook (if I recall correctly) with six classes (although there would be a few variants as well to make it more like the core 11 classes) and it won't need a Skill section, a Combat section, or such, it might be less of an issue of a specific class taking up too much space.


Well, I don't mind those four skill points when compared to cleric or sorcerer.

If you compare the spontaneous casters and their spell memorizing counterparts it's obvious that the oracle sactifices more in general mechanics for spontaneous spellcasting than the sorcerer does.

Both have the access to higher level magic delayed, but quite unlike the cleric the wizard does have his spell access limited (he needs to invest money to get more spells), while the cleric has automatically whole spell list available. Not to mention that the cleric already has some limited spontaneous spellcasting, so the oracle had better had something to make up for the delay... not to mention that the Oracle also has access only to light armour...

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Elendur wrote:

A divine spontaneous caster seems a logical role to fill, so I'm on board with the premise of the oracle. However a few things stand out to me flavor wise.

There's not a whole lot "oracular" to the oracle.

I agree that the oracle could be a bit more "oracular," as Elendur puts it. I think the oracle could benefit from a mechanic that requires an oracle to enter a divinatory trance in order to access her revelations. That would give the oracle a strong divinatory flavor without heaping on a bunch of extraneous divination spells or spell-like effects.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Elendur wrote:
I do like the curses though. It can be difficult to have disadvantages in a RPG because players learn to work around them. However this is an advanced player's guide, so I'm sure an experienced group should be able to work with the GM to keep it relevant.

I think they're intended to be able to be worked around, and that's the point. Their cost is not their restriction, but instead the cost of working around them.

Dark Archive

Blazej wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:
Quandary wrote:

It's a PREVIEW at this point, y'know,

Supposedly further Foci (/Mysteries) WILL be previewed/playtest later when they're ready.

...Foci of Patience, where are you? ;-)

I didn't see any mention in the PDF that there would be others previewed or playtested. Where was that at? I would have expected that, with staggered releases for the six classes, we'd be seeing each class at its full "alpha," rather than seeing new stuff come out later on, since I thought we were supposed to be focusing on playtesting the class to its fullest during the allotted time.

I am obviously mistaken there, but I don't really see the indication in the PDF that there'll be more foci forthcoming. The class already takes up a ton of space comparatively as it is (it's already nine pages long). I'll be glad to see additional foci, but this still gives me the disconnect that the name doesn't even mesh to what I'd expect from the class. With the flavor text, an Oracle of Knowledge would be a good replacement for Cleric in an old NPC I had as a major villain years ago, but there's absolutely no focus that would work as it stands.

On page 11 under foci "The following foci are just some of those that will appear in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide. As the playtest continues, other foci will be made available through the messageboards at paizo.com."

The class might be taking up a good space (maybe even too much), but since the book would be as big as the Player's Handbook (if I recall correctly) with six classes (although there would be a few variants as well to make it more like the core 11 classes) and it won't need a Skill section, a Combat section, or such, it might be less of an issue of a specific class taking up too much space.

Also since I seem to recall it being said that the origonal classes would be getting extra options (domains, bloodlines, Combat styles ect) So it would make sence to give the six new classes as much space as the old classes + there new featurs will get.


Lord Thasmudyan wrote:
honestly like the death foci

Singular form of foci is focus, by the way. :)

Fraust wrote:
Hopefully when the book is released there will be quite a few more. I love the concept and how it all works, it's just very limited right now.

I'm quite sure that every single domain will get its oracle focus.

Elendur wrote:


There's not a whole lot "oracular" to the oracle.

Well, "oracle" means "speaker". Sure, the word usually used with prophetic people - that and other prophetic things, by the way. It can be things and places, too.

This oracle is a speaker for the gods - well, actually for some divine concept.

The Oracle of Knowledge will probably have all the powers you want for seeing things, but all the other foci will speak for their concepts.

Not all concepts would make sense to have divination powers. Some already have, if you look: The elemental foci give you the power to see through their favoured substance, wave let you use any pool of water as scrying device, battle has the power to foresee danger, bones allows you to speak with the dead.

(Edit: Forgot about this stuff).

Elendur wrote:


(Also focus already has a specific game definition as a type of spell component, so that should probably change).

And there's the psionic focus, too. But overlapping of abilities isn't anything new: Dragon can be a monster or a creature type, and so can elemental (well, subtype), giant (ditto), and so on.

I don't mind the word too much. Maybe a better can be found, but if they won't change it, I won't lose any sleep over it.

Elendur wrote:


Not a big fan of the light armor and shield. I'd rather have some inherent bonus to defenses to reflect their special insight.

I think the bone armour (and similar stuff) should be permanent, or at least last a lot longer (mage armour lasts hours, too).

Light armour is alright I think, but more defensive stuff would be welcome.

I do think, though, that we'll see more in other foci. Protection will probably crawl with stuff. Knowledge might get some insight defense, and so on.

Elendur wrote:


I do like the curses though. It can be difficult to have disadvantages in a RPG because players learn to work around them. However this is an advanced player's guide, so I'm sure an experienced group should be able to work with the GM to keep it relevant.

Well, the ways to work around are already there, for the most part:

  • Clouded vision: Well, there's no way really to get past the 60 feet (unless you count true seeing, which I as GM would rule to cap at 60' in this case), but in those 60 feet, you rock.
  • Deaf: You do get Silent Spell for everything, which can be nice, and you get nice other senses. I guess we just need some quick rules to read lips (aren't they already there?), and you get around most of it. But not all. You still can't hear what someone's speaking if he turns his back to you. Nothing you cannot live with, as many deaf people in real life have shown (and they don't get tremorsense)
  • Haunted: Well, don't drop anything and don't get Quick Draw. Other than that, this is the one most in the GMs jurisdiction, as he will have the final call on what the spirits do.
  • Lame: It's basically a no-brainer if you want to use heavier armour, anyway (like an oracle of battle).
  • Wasting: Well, a penalty's a penalty, but you can boost those skills high enough that it won't make much of a difference - or you just don't use that stuff.
  • Tongues: Just have everyone learn your language.

  • RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    KaeYoss wrote:

    Not all concepts would make sense to have divination powers. Some already have, if you look: The elemental foci give you the power to see through their favoured substance, wave let you use any pool of water as scrying device, battle has the power to foresee danger, bones allows you to speak with the dead.

    This needs more emphasis. Divining (not necessarily Divination with a capital D) needs to somehow be a core part of the class, even if you're just giving everyone a signature divination. Bone oracles need to cast the bones as a basic thing.

    Maybe each focus/mystery/gift/sphere/thingie could have a signature divining focus, and that's the item you use for divine focus on spells? So any DF spell, you're rolling the bones or gazing into flames or whatever. Possibly with a free basic ability to carry your divining focus with you if it's not an object. (E.g. keeping a flame in a vial or something)

    Quote:
  • Haunted: Well, don't drop anything and don't get Quick Draw. Other than that, this is the one most in the GMs jurisdiction, as he will have the final call on what the spirits do.
  • Lame: It's basically a no-brainer if you want to use heavier armour, anyway (like an oracle of battle).
  • Wasting: Well, a penalty's a penalty, but you can boost those skills high enough that it won't make much of a difference - or you just don't use that stuff.
  • Haunted needs to be clear about what it does and no more. People keep adding extra disadvantages to Haunted every time I look.

    Does Lame stack with the heavy armor penalty? This should be clear.

    Wasting just poos over too many concepts as a flat -4 charisma check penalty, argh. (Why does being ugly hurt Bluff or Perform or UMD?) But I've ranted about that elsewhere.


    Really like the Oracle but it isn't a Cleric replacement unless you are happy to reduce your spells known by picking all the Cure spells.

    As a stand-alone alternative to everything else [non cleric] I think it's very good.


    A Man In Black wrote:
    Divining (not necessarily Divination with a capital D) needs to somehow be a core part of the class

    I'd prefer to keep it optional.

    A Man In Black wrote:


    Haunted needs to be clear about what it does and no more. People keep adding extra disadvantages to Haunted every time I look.

    I'm not sure the rules hard approach works for that ability. I'd rather it emphasises that this is no simple +2/-2 deal, and that you need to check with your GM before you take this, to see if your opinions mesh well.

    Things I can see haunted do:

  • Mess up stealth, because the voices warn the guy you sneak up to, or you get witch lights when you need it least.
  • "Attack" people you don't like (throw small items at them), and "help" those you do like (like pulling a rake away before they step on it.). Alternatively, it's the other way around!
  • Embarrass you by dropping your pants or letting your weapon belt drop.

    Players need to be told that some weird stuff can happen with this, and GMs need to be told not to be too much of an ass about it (Vampire: The Requiem has a nice passage about this: It's about the Malkovian's clan weakness. They get one mild form of derangement, and in stress situations, it can grow into the more severe form, like an avoidance behaviour to grow into a full-blown phobia. The book has this piece of advice for Storytellers: "Don't be an ass about it. An assault by vampire hunters with flame throwers is not the right moment for a vampire to curl up into foetal position. The grand reception in the prince's abode is a different matter...")

    Maybe list a number of things haunted can do to you and let people decide beforehand which ones will apply. The GM should take care that players don't pick those that don't affect them at all, like a stealth penalty for a brash Oracle of Battle.

    A Man In Black wrote:


    Does Lame stack with the heavy armor penalty? This should be clear.

    Of course. Otherwise, the 10th-level bonus (speed is never reduced by armour) would make no sense.

    A Man In Black wrote:


    Wasting just poos over too many concepts as a flat -4 charisma check penalty, argh.

    Then don't use it. You have your pick of half a dozen curses, and the final version might have more. Of course the Oracle of Friendship won't take this one. An Oracle of Flame would probably not get Lame, either.

    A Man In Black wrote:


    (Why does being ugly hurt Bluff or Perform or UMD?) But I've ranted about that elsewhere.

    Bluff is based off charisma. It's not fast talk, to be based off wits or something like that. It depends on people wanting to believe you. Not liking someone will make you less inclined to buy his lies.

    UMD? Well, magic items are shallow bastards, didn't you know that?

    Maybe it should just be -4 to diplomacy?


  • The Oracle is extremely cool, nuff said !!!

    Especially the Curses, who allow for great role-playing opportunities (like the Oracle who speaks in tongues ! 'Look, there are enemies behind us ! For the SHALABA-KHULHU-AHAMAT-KTZUUU, KYE-KYE-N'GHYIIIEE, KN'UTHULMAKA !!!')

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