Sorcerer Handbook Brainstorming [optimization]

[MinstrelintheGallery]

Recently Treantmonk created a couple handbooks to get the most out Bards and Rangers. And this has been, by my reckoning- a success. This is in spite people apprehensions on the the subject, which aren't unfounded. Now, he did this by limiting himself to a practical guide, something far from unheard of; and shy-ed away from exploiting the system, as so many feared.

Now, a few weeks ago I tried to get a discussion on the new pathfinder sorcerer going on gleemax, there were a few people to way in, but not enough for me to come to conclusions. I do want to write a guide on the sorcerer, but I'm not sure I have a complete mastery of the abilities (and I'm sure someone will disagree with what opinions I have anyway). So, I'd like some help. Anyone's opinions on the subject are welcome, I want preferences on races, feats and bloodlines especially. I'm not planing on writing a spell guide but if you have something to say about a spell, go ahead.

BUT if you can point out something less obvious- like a use for the destiny bloodline, than your contributions will be doubly appreciated

[Dragonborn3]

When it comes to ray Sorcerers halflings are a good choice. They get an attack bonus to their AC and attacks rolls, and a +2 to thier Dexterity and Charisma scores. Point Blank Shot is nice if someone gets to close, and aat later levels Precise Shot gives you the accuracy needed to fire into melee. Levels in Rogue add extra damage when you can sneak attack, and are needed if you are wanting to become an Arcane Trickster. Greater Invisibility is your friend against most monsters and bad guys, and feats like Empower Spell can up the damage a bit even if it does take a full round to do so. The Abberant Bloodline is good for this type of sorcerer. The Eldritch Knight Prestige class allows you to grab Weapon Specialization(ranged touch spells) at later levels, and gives you a better BaB(which will make it easier to hit with those ray spells). Elves are also a good choice for this type of Sorcerer, since they get bonuses to beat a monster's SR.

Gnomes and Half-Orcs can make good battle Sorcerers. Gnomes get a +2 to Con and Cha(but take a -2 to Str, so you'll want Weapon Finesse), and Half-Orcs get Ferocity, are proficient with falchions and greataxes, and can up any one ability score by 2. Dragon Disciple is a good choice, though Half-Orcs with ranks in Intimidate and the Intimidating Prowess feat get more out of it than Gnomes. After you max out your levels in Dragon Disciple, I suggest you keep advancing as a Sorcerer.

With the exception of Dwarves(-2 Cha), all the races make for good blaster and buffer Sorcerers.

Elves(and Half-Elves) get a prestige Class all to themselves: Arcane Archer. Giving your fireball the range of your arrows can keep you well out of the fight and still be able to do damage. The Arcane Bloodline works well for the Arcane Archer, since you can make your bow your Arcane Bond. As with the Ray Sorcerer, Point Blank and Precise Shot are good for the Archer, and there are plenty of feats that can make you deadlier with your bow of choice.

Just my 2cp.
-Dragonborn3

[Frerezar]

If the DM allows it an Abyssal Thiefling (as per bastards of erebus) is a superb sorcerer (+2 str *2 cha + everything else).

[Matthew Morris]

I'm enamoured with the idea of a sorcerer with the abyssal bloodline, the augment summoning feat, and maybe spell focus concentration. Even with a strength of 8, you will have a strength of 14 before augments).

First level take long spear, your claws, and mage armour and colour spray or sleep.
Feat: Improved initiative or Spell Focus Enchantment (if you take sleep)

3rd level, pick up Augment summoning, and summon monster I
4th level, summon monster II
5th level, Glitterdust, Spell Focus concentration.

By 6th level, your critters get DR 3/good, you've some resistances, and if you've scrolls of false life or a wand (or a spellstone from dragon magazine) you're a good support character who can hold off melee attacks for a few rounds (long spear/claw combo) until your meat shields can get in there.

For added fun, if you can play a tiefling, you can make magik pretty easily.

[Paul Watson]

Matthew Morris wrote:

I'm enamoured with the idea of a sorcerer with the abyssal bloodline, the augment summoning feat, and maybe spell focus concentration. Even with a strength of 8, you will have a strength of 14 before augments).

First level take long spear, your claws, and mage armour and colour spray or sleep.
Feat: Improved initiative or Spell Focus Enchantment (if you take sleep)

3rd level, pick up Augment summoning, and summon monster I
4th level, summon monster II
5th level, Glitterdust, Spell Focus concentration.

By 6th level, your critters get DR 3/good, you've some resistances, and if you've scrolls of false life or a wand (or a spellstone from dragon magazine) you're a good support character who can hold off melee attacks for a few rounds (long spear/claw combo) until your meat shields can get in there.

For added fun, if you can play a tiefling, you can make magik pretty easily.

Ok. I'm confused. What is Spell Focus Concentration referring to?

[MinstrelintheGallery]

I'm also confused on the Spell Focus Concentration thing. There isn't even a skill focus concentration anymore.

Also, don't you need Spell Focus Conjuring to take Augment Summoning?

[Mirror, Mirror]

The biggest mistake Sorcerers make is trying to be the Wizard. The second is trying to be a 1-trick pony.

First, you must select your bloodline carefully, as this will come to dominate your character concept. Regardless of what you choose, there are 2 major considerations moving forward:

1) How will my bloodline powers affect my concept. Some boost summoning, others give natural attacks, etc. These are now your built-in strengths, and so you should use them. If that means getting into meele to attack and deliver touch spells in 1 go, then build yourself for that.

2) Which spells can I take that will either synergize with my powers or shore up my deficiencies. Elemental and Draconic bloodlines synergize well with blasting spells, but you don't need all of them. Look to your free spells or later abilities to see if there are future synergies you could shoot for. Chill touch, for example, is excellent when used with Form of the Dragon.

Second, you must select your spells. You must find those spells that you will want to cast over and over again, since that's where the Sorc bonus is at. Cherry-pick the fewest number of must have spells possible, and avoid any and all utility spells. If the spell cannot be used in 80% of encounters, even sub-par, then it is not worth your consideration. Yes, this means that many of the tried-and-true staples of costing will be ignored. Do it. You must also diversify your spells, so taking nothing but AoE blasting spells is just asking for trouble. Try to target different saves, or weaker spell effects that have no save at all. The Wiz will be trying to pull out that perfect spell. You want to pull the spell that keeps doing it's thing. On that note, try to avoid spells where the save negates, unless necessary.

Third, you must decide on a combat style, and choose feats and gear that suppliment that style. If you are an AoE blaster, look for ways to penalize that REF save (stealth skills, tanglefoot bags, etc.). If you are a Ray caster, pick up the pbs and precise shot feats, along with wf ray. If battlefield control is your thing, focus on DC boosting and metamagics like Widen.

Note on Metamagics: These are usually the Sorc best friend, but you rarely need more than 2 of them (besides quicken). Look for the metamagics the best boost your primary combat style.

Finally, SPAM. The whole reason we grabbed generally useful, but not optimal, spells is because we are going to make them roll that save 4 times! We are going to hit everybody! We are going to let loose with our best combo attack 4 times a day! And unlike the Wiz, who is almost always casting from his top slot, you will be casting from the full range. You want viable spells at every level, the whole spread targeting different saves or abilities or resistances. If just one spell works well, spam it!

And avoid being pegged into only one option. That is what the Wiz is for. You want to be able to throw a multitude of options down on your enemies, so don't get over-invested in a single attack plan (especially with feats and feat chains).

[delabarre]

Mirror, Mirror wrote:

The biggest mistake Sorcerers make is trying to be the Wizard. The second is trying to be a 1-trick pony.

This is all excellent advice. I would add the following:

Pay attention to the roles of the rest of the party, and choose a spell repertoire that supports the party. If your party is already heavy on offense, then you should look at supporting them with buffs and hold; likewise, if your party is defensively oriented, then bring the big bangs.

Also: if you are multiclassing with a melee class such as monk or rogue, then pick a repertoire that will work synergistically with your other class (invisibility for rogues, cat's grace & owl's wisdom for monks, mage armor for both, etc.).

[Matthew Morris]

I meant Spell Focus: Conjuration.

Since you're likely going to be a summoner, might as well give other conjuration spells (like glitter dust) an oomph.

[Treantmonk]

I'll give some more specific feedback when I have time, but I'll start with a Generality:

The biggest drawback to playing a Sorcerer over a Wizard isn't getting spells one level later, as many people seem to think. It's the small number of known spells.

Pathfinder has expanded the spells known with the bloodlines, so I think which spells the bloodline adds are as important, or more important than any of the other aspects of the bloodline.

When it comes to spell selection for the Sorcerer, spell versatility needs to be the number 1 priority. You want to avoid redundancy, and try to pick spells that aren't circumstantial. (Those spells are for scrolls)

Personally I think summoning spells are a good choice. Summoned creatures can perform all kinds of useful purposes, including just attacking in combat.

Illusion spells are quite versatile, but you don't need a lot of them, because they are usually redundant.

Get one wall spell. Be it Ice, Stone or Force.

Get some buffs. Buffs are almost never circumstantial, so in pretty much any combat they are helpful. Mass buffs like Haste are always a good choice.

Get at least one blast: I'm not a big fan of blasts, but you want at least some form of blasting option. I like blasts that are versatile, magic missile maybe (Force, selected targets), or something using Sonic.

Feats: Just a quick note on feats as well - Silent Spell and Still Spell are feats that a Sorcerer gets more milage out of than a Wizard, simply because you usually don't know beforehand when you'll need them.

[meabolex]

The sorcerer is a fine class in 3.5, even if underpowered compared to the wizard. The PF upgrade helps things, and the bloodlines are nice. But I think the wizard is *still* better (albeit now only slightly) at general-purpose D&D, particularly in the later levels where spell flexibility becomes king. PF has narrowed the margin between wizard and sorcerer substantially, and just by eyeballing things, I think the sorcerer is a much more fun class now.

As a DM, I just love sorcerers as BBEGs. They're quick to make/alter and they have enough tricks to make them quite effective against PCs.

I haven't played a sorcerer in PF/PF Beta, but I'd imagine a gnome sorcerer with the arcane bloodline and SF/GSF Illusion would be quite spectacular (:

[MinstrelintheGallery]

Even with all of the new toys they gave the sorcerer, the wizard comes out on top. The reason is- as Treantmonk said- spells known. Given a day's preparation (not unreasonable in many circumstances) the wizard can destroy anything. A sorcerer has to choose his spells earlier.

I suggest, to anyone playing a sorcerer, to decide your spell list upon character creation. And choose a diverse selection of spells to keep yourself covered- focused sorcerers don't work, that's why Wotc made the Dread Necromancer and the Beguiler (and technically the Warmage, but the Warmage kinda...sucks)Get all the stuff you'll need- defences (I'll can't not take mage armor, it too risky); attacks- debuffs and blasts (enervation!); general utility- a form of fly is needed. Choose spells that do a variety- polymorph is a better choice than beast shape III, as it gives a wider range of powers. Also- limited wish.

My problem with the abyssal bloodline is that it doesn't pay off until level 15, all of it's other ablities are lackluster.

[Sean FitzSimon]

MinstrelintheGallery wrote:

<Snip>

My problem with the abyssal bloodline is that it doesn't pay off until level 15, all of it's other ablities are lackluster.

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't see the Abyssal bloodline as lackluster. The abyssal bloodline forces you into a unique role: melee sorcerer. You get claws that scale with your level, which keeps them from being useless at higher levels (They're not useful, but they're not useless), you get inherent bonuses to strength (which is amazing for someone who usually dumps strength) that help keep touch attacks useful, and some decent resistances.

The only real downside to the class is that it tends towards evil, which makes it a difficult choice for many players.

[stuart haffenden]

Wait and let minkytree do it for you, he's been doing this sort of thing for some time and still manages to upset some people, if you do an average job expect some hard criticism.
However if you're really up for it then give it a go. I think most players enjoy reading other peoples views and opinions, and especially builds.

[Fergie]

I found some of the most interesting spells in beta testing were the "form of the..." and "... shape" spells. You could use them to become all kinds of creatures, and with the Abyssal Bloodline you could even get benefit from stuff like weapon focus claw, or multi-attack.

Don't overlook these new polymorph type spells when thinking of different character concepts.

[Set]

MinstrelintheGallery wrote:

My problem with the abyssal bloodline is that it doesn't pay off until level 15, all of it's other ablities are lackluster.

My own solution for at least some of the annoying abilities was just to create alternate features that could be substituted for them for the various Bloodlines (Domains, Specializations).

For Abyssal;
(replaces Claws)
Chaos Lightning (Sp): As a standard action, you can launch a chortling bruise-colored bolt of writhing lightning at a single target within 30 ft. as a ranged touch attack inflicting 1d6 electrical damage +1 hit point per 2 class levels. A target with the Law or Good type is also Sickened for one round by these energies. You can use this ability a number of times equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

[MinstrelintheGallery]

Set wrote:

My own solution for at least some of the annoying abilities was just to create alternate features that could be substituted for them for the various Bloodlines (Domains, Specializations).

For Abyssal;
(replaces Claws)
Chaos Lightning (Sp): As a standard action, you can launch a chortling bruise-colored bolt of writhing lightning at a single target within 30 ft. as a ranged touch attack inflicting 1d6 electrical damage +1 hit point per 2 class levels. A target with the Law or Good type is also Sickened for one round by these energies. You can use this ability a number of times equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Not a bad solution- but the guide unfortunatly shouldn't include homebrew. This is because I want to make a guide that can get used by anyone, so if I had in homebrew or 3.5 material, people won't be able to take the advice.

Also that's too powerful an ability- none of the at-will abilities for sorcerers or wizard damage and apply a debuff. i know this was just an example but that's my two cents.

I'm also hesitant to change out abilities of the bloodlines for others, for three reasons- I'd be too tempted to cherry-pick all the abilities, I don't want to break the themes that they're building (Abyssal=melee+summon, which is the strategy of most demons)and I try to only use homebrew as a last resort. I homebrew when I feel a mechanic is broken: diplomancers are terrifying at best; and when my players would get upset: they'd kill me if I made them confirm criticals.

[Set]

MinstrelintheGallery wrote:

Not a bad solution- but the guide unfortunatly shouldn't include homebrew. This is because I want to make a guide that can get used by anyone, so if I had in homebrew or 3.5 material, people won't be able to take the advice.

Oh, I agree, and was this an actual guide, I wouldn't suggest it. Since it's just a brainstorming session though, I figured it would be an example of one way a DM could tweak things for his players.

MinstrelintheGallery wrote:

Also that's too powerful an ability- none of the at-will abilities for sorcerers or wizard damage and apply a debuff. i know this was just an example but that's my two cents.

It's something to consider. But several of the abilities have special perks, such as the ability to ignore SR of the Conjuror's Acid Dart, or the (apparently) unlimited range of the Force Missile. A one round sickened effect, limited only to creatures with certain rare-ish subtypes, didn't seem too out of line, compared to those perks.

MinstrelintheGallery wrote:

I'm also hesitant to change out abilities of the bloodlines for others, for three reasons- I'd be too tempted to cherry-pick all the abilities, I don't want to break the themes that they're building (Abyssal=melee+summon, which is the strategy of most demons)and I try to only use homebrew as a last resort. I homebrew when I feel a mechanic is broken: diplomancers are terrifying at best; and when my players would get upset: they'd kill me if I made them confirm criticals.

Sensible choices, in both cases. My players are okay with confirming criticals, but we've got our own quirks.

Due to the very different natures of an Aberrant vs. Draconic vs. Undead Sorcerer, for instance, each would benefit from a specific listing of Feats and spell choices that would most effectively complement their Bloodline abilities.

An Aberrant, for instance, is going to potentially have much more interest in touch spells, which, in my experience, Sorcerers generally avoid like the plague.

[MinstrelintheGallery]

Set wrote:

Oh, I agree, and was this an actual guide, I wouldn't suggest it. Since it's just a brainstorming session though, I figured it would be an example of one way a DM could tweak things for his players.

I figured, I just wanted to make it clear that this wasn't a "let's fix the pathfinder rules" kind of thread, as there are plenty of those; and more of a "let's do the best job with what paizo gave us" kind of thread

Set wrote:

Due to the very different natures of an Aberrant vs. Draconic vs. Undead Sorcerer, for instance, each would benefit from a specific listing of Feats and spell choices that would most effectively complement their Bloodline abilities.

An Aberrant, for instance, is going to potentially have much more interest in touch spells, which, in my experience, Sorcerers generally avoid like the plague.

True an aberrant sorcerer might take weapon finesse, where most might laugh at the notion. (he might also try to stay in polymorph form while fighting to boost his strength ie: accuracy while fighting. Other bloodlines will affect the feats as well.

I'm also thinking of adding in prestidge classes- suggesting which bloodlines to take to prepare for them, like abyssal for eldritch knight. Personally i feel a dedicated spell caster is preferable to gishes or arcane trickster, but if that what you want to play (as they can be very fun) you shouldn't be left out in the cold.

[Ardenup]

A Sorcerer Handbook would be great. The spells section would need to be exaustive as this dictates your strengths even more than a wizard.

A few suggestions:

Detail build styles that are optimal for bloodlines- Abberent should probably focus on touch spells for example.

Elves make great archer/ray sorcerers- Proficiency with bows, a dex bonus and going with fey bloodline gets free PBS and PS and throw in 4 lvls of arcane archer is NICE.

Gotta go. Back later.

[Treantmonk]

Obviously, UMD is going to be a pretty strong skill for a Sorcerer - so I have to think their wands/staves/scrolls may do well to focus on non-sorcerer spells. Stuff like "Freedom of movement" or "Entanglement"

A complete list of all the "touch" range spells would be a handy resource for the Aberrant Sorcerer.

I'm thinking more and more that Human may be a stronger choice than I was originally thinking, just because I'm thinking a Sorcerer is going to be skill-starved, so that extra skill point per level would be very nice.

[MinstrelintheGallery]

I'm thinking Acrane bloodline+improved familiar(mephit)+UMD+a wand of summon moster= win.

And yes I agree that the human is a better choice than most for sorcer as the sorcerer is one of the most skill-starved classes in the game.

Gnomes and halfing are great for their charisma bonus+small size, But I think gnome is better the halfling for the sorcerer.