I do no think this is a misprint or I would have put it into the Bestiary errata thread, but I noticed something the other day and wanted to run this by some of you folks.
Concerning the Barbed Devil and his impale ability: A barbed devil deals 3D8+9 points of damage on a successful Grabbed opponent with a successful grapple check. Simple enough right.
Now under grab in the universal monster rules section it states that unless otherwise noted this ability can only be used against a creature/pc who is one size category smaller than the monster.
Now here is my question. Considering the general Barbed devil is a medium sized creature this pretty much means he will not be allowed to use this most times considering the vast majority of pc's are medium sized. Was this done intentionally being the Barbed devil already has a pretty substantial amount of other special abilities or was this an oversight and hence should be able to use this against medium sized creatures as well?
that is very weird.
I wonder if this is a misprint.
I had similar thoughts about other monsters that I posted in the erratta thread. For example, the choker, a creature whose whole gimmick is grabbing, is a small creature, so it can only grab tiny, fine, and diminute creatures, but this directly contradicts information presented in the fluff paragraphs.that is very weird.
I wonder if this is a misprint.
Yeah, I didn't think I was alone in this concern. Maybe I should move this over to the Bestiary Errata thread?
There is Grab, the special attack, and grabbing, the condition from 3.5 when you'd hit with the melee touch attack but before you'd succeeded on the opposed grapple check.
I'm certain this grab refers to the latter.
Yeah, but the problem is according to the new rules this would not be allowed. Hopefully come Monday one of the powers that be will chime in. Otherwise I am just going to have to make the Barbed Devil large as I plan on running him next weekend and the impale ability is just to sweet not to use.
Creative Director
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There is Grab, the special attack, and grabbing, the condition from 3.5 when you'd hit with the melee touch attack but before you'd succeeded on the opposed grapple check.
I'm certain this grab refers to the latter.
This is correct. If a Medium barbed devil wants to grapple a human, he has to do so with the normal grapple attack.
Grab only gives him "free" grapple attacks against Small or smaller targets, but his impale ability still works on things he grapples normally.
This was indeed done on purpose. Partially because the barbed devil's already pretty tough... but partially because it's sometimes good to actually design monsters like this so that it's an advantage to be Medium (normally, it's more advantageous to be Small).
So are there any monsters that can attempt to start a Grapple with something their own size without provoking an AoO ?
Did a search for "Improved Grapple" and it appears that not a single monster has this Feat!
There is Grab, the special attack, and grabbing, the condition from 3.5 when you'd hit with the melee touch attack but before you'd succeeded on the opposed grapple check.
I'm certain this grab refers to the latter.
This is correct. If a Medium barbed devil wants to grapple a human, he has to do so with the normal grapple attack.
Grab only gives him "free" grapple attacks against Small or smaller targets, but his impale ability still works on things he grapples normally.
This was indeed done on purpose. Partially because the barbed devil's already pretty tough... but partially because it's sometimes good to actually design monsters like this so that it's an advantage to be Medium (normally, it's more advantageous to be Small).
Thanks for the reply James. I tend to agree with the above poster however. I think it is the wording in the impale section that refers you to the grab condition that confuses the matter, or at least me. Actually, although it should have in retrospect, it never occurred to me that it could be done with a grapple as well. Although it does state right in the text grapple check. Actually looking at it now I feel rather silly about bringing it up.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The Darkmantle can start a grapple against a foe of any size. Improved Grapple no longer exists as a feat. It has been replaced with the Grab ability.So are there any monsters that can attempt to start a Grapple with something their own size without provoking an AoO ?
Did a search for "Improved Grapple" and it appears that not a single monster has this Feat!
Actually, Improved Grapple does still exist, p. 127 of the core rulebook, and there's also a greater grapple feat on p. 125. I don't see why either of them wouldn't apply to creatures with the grab special ability or those that just grapple normall (or both.)
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Creative Director
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So are there any monsters that can attempt to start a Grapple with something their own size without provoking an AoO ?
Did a search for "Improved Grapple" and it appears that not a single monster has this Feat!
That's mostly because it's annoying for monsters to qualify for the feat. In order to take that feat, you need "Improved Unarmed Attack" which, for most monsters, is a wasted feat.
That's mostly because it's annoying for monsters to qualify for the feat. In order to take that feat, you need "Improved Unarmed Attack" which, for most monsters, is a wasted feat.
Maybe there could have been a clause where you could substitute the "Improved Unarmed Attack" requirement for having a natural attack?
That's mostly because it's annoying for monsters to qualify for the feat. In order to take that feat, you need "Improved Unarmed Attack" which, for most monsters, is a wasted feat.So are there any monsters that can attempt to start a Grapple with something their own size without provoking an AoO ?
Did a search for "Improved Grapple" and it appears that not a single monster has this Feat!
Ok, I wouldn't say "annoying", it's your product, if you wanted them to not need the prereq's then I'm sure you could have done that, it's no different than PC's qualifying for stuff without the prereq's from Class abilities.
It certainly makes Enlarge Person look a bit better, at least against large grappling monsters. Also two-handed weapon users have an added advantage now that the AoO damage increases the CMB required to achieve the Grapple.
I guess little grapplers like the Choker will have to use stealth to catch their targets flat-footed to be able to avoid the AoO that will pretty much auto stop any grapple chance. It's probably the way chokers and the like would act anyway.
I guess it all makes sense really, a lot of the 3.5 grapple monsters were a little overpowered, imo. If this change balances things out, that can only be a good thing. I vote this as a good change. Thumbs up!
Now, the only thing we need to know is regarding this sentence:
PRD -> Combat -> Combat Maneuvers -> Grapple:
"If You Are Grappled: (...) Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you."
Basically, does this mean 'making ONE attack' (like I truly hope) or 'making AS MANY attacks as you can due to your BaB' ?
Because, if the latter, a grappling monster/creature/character (Monks, I'm looking at all of you !!!) is basically dead meat before it can deal damage or pinning the opponent the following round...
Grappler: "Aha ! After beating your CMD, I've finally taken a hold on you !"
Grappled: "+5 Keen Speed Scimitar, FULL ATTACK !!!"
Grappler: "D'oh..."
For example, the choker, a creature whose whole gimmick is grabbing, is a small creature, so it can only grab tiny, fine, and diminute creatures, but this directly contradicts information presented in the fluff paragraphs.
Err...
So... are chokers exempted for this rule, or do I have to stop choking people with them? In 3.5 they could imp grab creatures up to size large.
Then again, quickness was loads nastier for them as well, so I'm not sure what's been lost on purpose and what's been retained.
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Creative Director
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That's mostly because it's annoying for monsters to qualify for the feat. In order to take that feat, you need "Improved Unarmed Attack" which, for most monsters, is a wasted feat.Maybe there could have been a clause where you could substitute the "Improved Unarmed Attack" requirement for having a natural attack?
Maybe so. I wasn't writing the rules, though. I may or may not have mentioned this to Jason, as it's been something of an annoying thing to me for a long time, but either I wasn't vocal enough or Jason probably had a really good reason not to change it (probably because it DOES work well as it stands for PCs, and because if we want a monster to be good at grappling we don't need to give it a feat... we just give it a bonus).
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Creative Director
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For example, the choker, a creature whose whole gimmick is grabbing, is a small creature, so it can only grab tiny, fine, and diminute creatures, but this directly contradicts information presented in the fluff paragraphs.Err...
So... are chokers exempted for this rule, or do I have to stop choking people with them? In 3.5 they could imp grab creatures up to size large.
Then again, quickness was loads nastier for them as well, so I'm not sure what's been lost on purpose and what's been retained.
Chokers should probably have a bit of amendment to their strangle ability that lets them grab targets of any size, yeah.
Thanks for the info, James! And whew, that's a relief. I love me my chokers.
Personally, I think when I'm GM, it's going to be a house rule of mine that if a creature has the Grab ability, it counts as having Improved Grapple for purposes of not provoking AoO, even if it can't use Grab and has to go with a touch attack and grapple check. I mean, it already has the +4 to grapple.
So the Barbed Devils get that hookup, at least from me.
Thanks for the info, James! And whew, that's a relief. I love me my chokers.
Personally, I think when I'm GM, it's going to be a house rule of mine that if a creature has the Grab ability, it counts as having Improved Grapple for purposes of not provoking AoO, even if it can't use Grab and has to go with a touch attack and grapple check. I mean, it already has the +4 to grapple.
So the Barbed Devils get that hookup, at least from me.
I was just going over the grapple rules and if you have the grab ability you do not provoke an AOO anyways (core rulebook 200).
What I am going to do to work around the grab ability is this: give him the improved unarmed strike feat (a waste but a pre-req for the following), improved grapple, and then greater grapple. That way he can take his move action to continue to use his impale ability for 3D8+9 damage to the grappled foe, while taking his standard action to strike out at pc's who will most certainly be near by.
Of course to do this I would have to get rid of his alertness feat, which drops his perception to a +19, his improved critical claw, and his power attack. A fair trade off I think considering I have always liked the barbed devil as grappling creatures anyway.
I am assuming that greater grapple works the way I described it above. Although the description of greater grapple has me wondering if I am right.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
so barbed devil would have to to do a normal grapple check, and provokes an AoE. Why would you even want to us this ability?
so barbed devil would have to to do a normal grapple check, and provokes an AoE. Why would you even want to us this ability?
That is what started the thread. Well actually I was wondering why a creature with the grab ability, the Barbed Devil in this case, could not use this ability against a medium sized foe. He would not provoke however being that he has grab.
so barbed devil would have to to do a normal grapple check, and provokes an AoE. Why would you even want to us this ability?
As RAW, yes.
If you don't like it, houserule as others have suggested above.
I think the change from 3.5 "Improved grab" to PF "grab" has gone under the radar. It doesn't seem that too many people are talking about the change on these boards. Either because they're not bothered or because they haven't noticed. It affects many monsters.
Basically if the monster isn't large [or bigger], it can't get free grapple attempts against medium sized PC's, period, even if it has the Grab ability.
so barbed devil would have to to do a normal grapple check, and provokes an AoE. Why would you even want to us this ability?As RAW, yes.
If you don't like it, houserule as others have suggested above.
I think the change from 3.5 "Improved grab" to PF "grab" has gone under the radar. It doesn't seem that too many people are talking about the change on these boards. Either because they're not bothered or because they haven't noticed. It affects many monsters.
Basically if the monster isn't large [or bigger], it can't get free grapple attempts against medium sized PC's, period, even if it has the Grab ability.
This is taken from the prd just to clarify that you do not provoke if you have the grab ability, although you do not get the free attack as the above poster mentioned.
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
I will probably house rule it. I feel as if the monster's grab was lessened then something should have been given to compensate for it.
I think it's fine the way it is now. They do not provoke as per the Grapple rules, they just don't get to do it for free with their every attack, that's fine by me. Most monsters got some new neat abilities and bonuses, so, I think this is a good thing, and makes sense to me.
I will probably house rule it. I feel as if the monster's grab was lessened then something should have been given to compensate for it.
Yeah, I'm not liking it too much either.
stuart haffenden wrote:
Basically if the monster isn't large [or bigger], it can't get free grapple attempts against medium sized PC's, period, even if it has the Grab ability.
I misread your quote I think, that is why I responded with the prd section. No, they would not get the FREE grapple check, they wouldn't provoke an aoo however FOR attempting to start a grapple. I do not think this is what you were referring to though so I apologize.
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Well actually I was wondering why a creature with the grab ability, the Barbed Devil in this case, could not use this ability against a medium sized foe. He would not provoke however being that he has grab.
Where, exactly, does it say that the Barbed Devil has the Grab ability? Because I didn't see it in my Bestiary.
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Creative Director
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Well actually I was wondering why a creature with the grab ability, the Barbed Devil in this case, could not use this ability against a medium sized foe. He would not provoke however being that he has grab.Where, exactly, does it say that the Barbed Devil has the Grab ability? Because I didn't see it in my Bestiary.
Grab shows up on the attack line, just after the damage listing for the attack that the monster can use to grab with.
This is taken from the prd just to clarify that you do not provoke if you have the grab ability, although you do not get the free attack as the above poster mentioned.Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
Nice Perception check there, much better'n mine! Thanks for pointing it out! ^-^
I think it's fine the way it is now. They do not provoke as per the Grapple rules, they just don't get to do it for free with their every attack, that's fine by me. Most monsters got some new neat abilities and bonuses, so, I think this is a good thing, and makes sense to me.
What did they get? I have not looked over the book in detail so I may have missed some things.
Nice Perception check there, much better'n mine! Thanks for pointing it out! ^-^
This is taken from the prd just to clarify that you do not provoke if you have the grab ability, although you do not get the free attack as the above poster mentioned.Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
Actually I just stumbled upon it after starting this thread. Well actually after James informed me that I could just use a grapple check, which I had never thought of for some reason. So I went over the grapple rules trying to figure out how I could get this little Devil to grapple without provoking and there it was.
I think the change from 3.5 "Improved grab" to PF "grab" has gone under the radar. It doesn't seem that too many people are talking about the change on these boards. Either because they're not bothered or because they haven't noticed. It affects many monsters.
Or because it actually isn't a change. From the 3.5 SRD:
Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.
Ok so now I'm totally tortured!
from Bestiary...
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits
with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it
deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a
free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against
opponents at least one size category smaller than the
creature.
So if the target isn't smaller, this implies grappling does provoke.
From the Core Rulebook...
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
This is saying that with the Grab ability you do not provoke an AoO for attempting to grapple.
So my questions are..
Can the Barbed Devil grapple a foe with out provoking an AoO if the target is not smaller than him?
Can a Choker grapple a Medium sized PC without provoking an AoO?
I'm thinking Yes.
So the Grab ability allows grapple attempts without provoking but only grants a free grapple attempt on top of damage from an attack against a smaller foe?
Ok so now I'm totally tortured!
from Bestiary...
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits
with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it
deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a
free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against
opponents at least one size category smaller than the
creature.So if the target isn't smaller, this implies grappling does provoke.
From the Core Rulebook...
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
This is saying that with the Grab ability you do not provoke an AoO for attempting to grapple.
So my questions are..
Can the Barbed Devil grapple a foe with out provoking an AoO if the target is not smaller than him?
Can a Choker grapple a Medium sized PC without provoking an AoO?
I'm thinking Yes.
So the Grab ability allows grapple attempts without provoking but only grants a free grapple attempt on top of damage from an attack against a smaller foe?
Your last paragraph is correct. He can still use the impale ability against medium creatures but he must do so using the grapple option, not the grab ability. This was not clear to me until James pointed it out. Versus a smaller creature he can do the grab for free.
I think it's fine the way it is now. They do not provoke as per the Grapple rules, they just don't get to do it for free with their every attack, that's fine by me. Most monsters got some new neat abilities and bonuses, so, I think this is a good thing, and makes sense to me.What did they get? I have not looked over the book in detail so I may have missed some things.
Take the Dragons for instance matey, now they are really fearsome. As is the tarrasque and i'm sure several others that were kinda lame before.
Take the Dragons for instance matey, now they are really fearsome. As is the tarrasque and i'm sure several others that were kinda lame before.I think it's fine the way it is now. They do not provoke as per the Grapple rules, they just don't get to do it for free with their every attack, that's fine by me. Most monsters got some new neat abilities and bonuses, so, I think this is a good thing, and makes sense to me.What did they get? I have not looked over the book in detail so I may have missed some things.
Dragons were always scary, and considering that I have one coming up in a few weeks I guess I should check to see what they may have gained. The tarrasque finally got a ranged attack, but I still think its AC is to low.
stuff that made sence
Thanks!
so barbed devil would have to to do a normal grapple check, and provokes an AoE. Why would you even want to us this ability?
Fluff wise it's Devil covered in Barbs it likes to do it, who cares if mechanically it's not perfect at doing it.
Besides most Devil's probably don;t fear things the same way we do with res/dr etc.
Dragons were always scary, and considering that I have one coming up in a few weeks I guess I should check to see what they may have gained. The tarrasque finally got a ranged attack, but I still think its AC is to low.Take the Dragons for instance matey, now they are really fearsome. As is the tarrasque and i'm sure several others that were kinda lame before.I think it's fine the way it is now. They do not provoke as per the Grapple rules, they just don't get to do it for free with their every attack, that's fine by me. Most monsters got some new neat abilities and bonuses, so, I think this is a good thing, and makes sense to me.What did they get? I have not looked over the book in detail so I may have missed some things.
You could be extra mean with the Trrasque and make a "Chosen" of a god, like half the forgotten realms npc's :D Can;t see any reaon why old Rovy wouldn't like one of his maniac children that much "nicer" for civilisation :D
You could be extra mean with the Trrasque and make a "Chosen" of a god
Best way to kill the thing!
You make it one of many Chosen today, and tomorrow someone decides to completely change the game, and completely shatter Golarion to reassemble some of the pieces to work with the new game. And all the Chosen will die!
Remember history, lest you repeat it! ;-)