Several Rule Clarifications


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Hello everyone, I had some questions about rules that need to be clarified if you don't mind helping me.

1 )Is there an ability in the game that can prevent a paladins SMITE EVIL from working effectively. Basically I want some challenged to be equal for everyone in the group and sometimes with the new smite evil a paladin can quickly steal all the glory. Short of increasing a monsters hit points, is there a spell perhaps or a way to circumvent smite evil if the create is evil.

2 ) This deals with mounted combat. Once you have moved up to your enemy while you are mounted, on your following turn can both the mount and your character take a full attack action? This question is related to a paladins horse mount. Rules for mounted combat are a little vague in the book. I understand that while the mount moves it consumes the characters move action as well.

3 ) This deals with metamagic rods. You can only enhance one spell through the use of metamagic rods and further enhancing of a spell would be done through the PC. If you have a rod of empower (1-6 level spells) can you quicken a fireball with your own use of a feat requiring a 7th level spell slot and then empower it with the rod even though it is now no longer in the range of 1-6 level spells. Assume this is a wizard. It seems it is still a third level spell in its effects such as DC, but is it considered a seventh level spell for determining using it with a metamagic rod?

4 ) For the 7th level spell, mages sword, once you have casted the sword spell, does it continue to attack or do you have to direct it. I believe by reading the rule that is continues to attack and as a STANDARD action you can change targets but if you keep the same target you can do other actions in the round.

5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this was a free action unless it says otherwise like on the ability Dancing. It just seems a command word would be a free action and is how I always have played it.

--Thanks for the help


rmbrodeu wrote:

Hello everyone, I had some questions about rules that need to be clarified if you don't mind helping me.

1 )Is there an ability in the game that can prevent a paladins SMITE EVIL from working effectively. Basically I want some challenged to be equal for everyone in the group and sometimes with the new smite evil a paladin can quickly steal all the glory. Short of increasing a monsters hit points, is there a spell perhaps or a way to circumvent smite evil if the create is evil.

a) Anti-magic fields shut down supernatural abilities, including Smite.

b) Dispel should dispel an active smite, it's a continuing supernatural ability.

rmbrodeu wrote:


2 ) This deals with mounted combat. Once you have moved up to your enemy while you are mounted, on your following turn can both the mount and your character take a full attack action? This question is related to a paladins horse mount. Rules for mounted combat are a little vague in the book. I understand that while the mount moves it consumes the characters move action as well.

a) A paladin's mount can take a full attack, it's a sentient creature

b) A normal mount requires commands to make a full attack, so a ride check is required for it to make a full-attack.

rmbrodeu wrote:


3 ) This deals with metamagic rods. You can only enhance one spell through the use of metamagic rods and further enhancing of a spell would be done through the PC. If you have a rod of empower (1-6 level spells) can you quicken a fireball with your own use of a feat requiring a 7th level spell slot and then empower it with the rod even though it is now no longer in the range of 1-6 level spells. Assume this is a wizard. It seems it is still a third level spell in its effects such as DC, but is it considered a seventh level spell for determining using it with a metamagic rod?

Fuzzy. Technically, the spell doesn't increase in level. It only takes up a higher slot. Only Heighten changes the level of the spell. So, a Rod should be able to empower it, since it's still technically a level 6 spell. I believe the 9th level limit would still apply though for stuff like this. So you couldn't use this trick to cast an effective 10th level spell.

rmbrodeu wrote:


4 ) For the 7th level spell, mages sword, once you have casted the sword spell, does it continue to attack or do you have to direct it. I believe by reading the rule that is continues to attack and as a STANDARD action you can change targets but if you keep the same target you can do other actions in the round.

Don't know off the top of my head, haven't had experience with the spell. Will refrain from sounding off on stuff I don't know about. :)

rmbrodeu wrote:


5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this...

Not sure what you are asking, I think you typo'd your question. If you're asking 'can I activate more than one special ability with a standard action', I believe the answer is yes. I seem to remember reading that in the old SRD FAQ, and nothing about those powers has changed in 3.P.

Liberty's Edge

My bad on question 5) I meant to word it as: is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a free action to activate frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability.

-Thanks


rmbrodeu wrote:

My bad on question 5) I meant to word it as: is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a free action to activate frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability.

-Thanks

Ah, ok. Honestly, I haven't looked recently. Most players in my game do it as part of a move during the opening round of combat, so it's never come up. I'm sure someone on here will pop up shortly. If not, I'll do some research and see if I can find it.


mdt wrote:


a) Anti-magic fields shut down supernatural abilities, including Smite.
b) Dispel should dispel an active smite, it's a continuing supernatural ability.

Supernatual abilities can not be dispelled.

rmbrodeu wrote:


4 ) For the 7th level spell, mages sword, once you have casted the sword spell, does it continue to attack or do you have to direct it. I believe by reading the rule that is continues to attack and as a STANDARD action you can change targets but if you keep the same target you can do other actions in the round.

The sword continues to attack until the target is dead, the duration runs out, or the caster uses a Standard Action to move to a new target. It requires no action on part of the caster once the sword is attacking.

rmbrodeu wrote:


My bad on question 5) I meant to word it as: is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a free action to activate frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability.

By RAW it requires a Standard Action to activate an elemental weapon and the 3.5 FAQ does say that the creator of a Frost/Flame weapon would usually give the same command word to activate both. Personally this is something I never enforced in my games and never had an issue.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

rmbrodeu wrote:

1 )Is there an ability in the game that can prevent a paladins SMITE EVIL from working effectively ... steal all the glory.

2 ) can both the mount and your character take a full attack action?

3 ) can you quicken a fireball with your own use of a feat requiring a 7th level spell slot and then empower it with the rod even though it is now no longer in the range of 1-6 level spells.

5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action.

1) A whole 4 extra points of damage on average hardly qualifies as glory stealing. If you do this to the Paladin, do it to the Rogue (Sneak) and the Fighter (Power Attack) or you are being unfair and unbalanced.

2) Unless this is changed from 3.5 rules there will be something in Handle Animal Skill for this.

3) Yes, but the Quickened Fireball uses a 7th level slot but is still a 3rd level spell.

5) Yes a standard to activate, always has been.


ShadowChemosh wrote:
mdt wrote:


a) Anti-magic fields shut down supernatural abilities, including Smite.
b) Dispel should dispel an active smite, it's a continuing supernatural ability.

Supernatual abilities can not be dispelled.

Ah, ok, but an anti-magic field would shut it down.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As to the Paladin, why yes, slap some Neutral critter against the party.


rmbrodeu wrote:
1 )Is there an ability in the game that can prevent a paladins SMITE EVIL from working effectively. Basically I want some challenged to be equal for everyone in the group and sometimes with the new smite evil a paladin can quickly steal all the glory. Short of increasing a monsters hit points, is there a spell perhaps or a way to circumvent smite evil if the create is evil.

If you are using 3.5 books, the Book of Vile Darkness has an armor enhancement called Darksoul Protection (p 111). It says that the wearer only takes 1/2 damage from spells or effects that cause greater damage to evil creatures, such as a holy smite spell, the smite evil ability of a paladin, or extra damage from a holy weapon.

rmbrodeu wrote:
5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this...

It is technically a standard action, as someone else pointed out. Although, there was a very large thread on this before (I forget what the name was). As the DM (or if you are a player, ask him), you can alter this how you wish.


shalandar wrote:


rmbrodeu wrote:
5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this...
It is technically a standard action, as someone else pointed out. Although, there was a very large thread on this before (I forget what the name was). As the DM (or if you are a player, ask him), you can alter this how you wish.

Yeah, I've always just allowed it as part of a move action as well.


shalandar wrote:


rmbrodeu wrote:
5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this...
It is technically a standard action, as someone else pointed out. Although, there was a very large thread on this before (I forget what the name was). As the DM (or if you are a player, ask him), you can alter this how you wish.

This means once activated you can choose to have it always on.

rmbrodeu wrote:


1 )Is there an ability in the game that can prevent a paladins SMITE EVIL from working effectively. Basically I want some challenged to be equal for everyone in the group and sometimes with the new smite evil a paladin can quickly steal all the glory. Short of increasing a monsters hit points, is there a spell perhaps or a way to circumvent smite evil if the create is evil.

Edit:

Easiest fix is to house rule. The house rule is a rule, page 9 of PF
Spoiler:

The Most Important Rule
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into
your characters and the world they explore. While they are
designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might
find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your
gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours.
You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters
have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games.
The Game Master and players should always discuss any
rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how
the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the
final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared
experience, and all of the players should contribute their
thoughts when the rules are in doubt.

Nerf the smite and nerf some of Paladin's other stuff.
Suggestions:

  • Let the smite only last for 3 rounds (or 2 round)
  • nerf the smite some more. Don't let the attacks automatically bypass all DR the creature might possess. Only cold iron, silver and alignment-based....or:
  • the paladin can pick a feat that lets her smite bypass (all) DR.
  • remove the bonus to damage vs. undeads, dragons and evil outsiders ...or
  • nerf the bonus vs. undeads, dragons and evil outsiders. The paladin get the bonus to damage once per day if she:
    - A) expends two uses of her smite evil ability.
    - B) Picks a feat that let her do it (without expending two uses of her smite evil ability)
    - C) Picks a feat and expends two uses of her smite evil ability.
  • or change the smite evil damage. Add an amount of damage equal to your Charisma modifier (or your Paladin level, whichever is lower). In this case I would give the paladin double damage vs. undeads, dragons and evil outsiders and let it bypass all DR. I might even let the smite last until target is dead. Let me show you how I mean:
    A level 8 paladin has 18 char. So when she smites she get +4 on attack and damage. If she smites and undead, evil dragon or evil outsider the attack is +4 and the damage is +8. The attack bypass (all?) DR. If she use Eagle ’s Splendor the attack would be +6 and the damage would be +6 or +12. she would also get the deflection bonus to AC.
  • nerf Divine Grace. Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) or your Paladin level, (whichever is lower) on all saving throws.
  • nerf lay on hand or and /mercies.
    - Paladin heals herslef as a standard action or
    - she heals hersalf as a swift action, but she only heals half as much.
  • etc, etc.

    My english is a bit weak, but I hope you understand it anyway.


  • rmbrodeu wrote:

    Hello everyone, I had some questions about rules that need to be clarified if you don't mind helping me.

    1 )Is there an ability in the game that can prevent a paladins SMITE EVIL from working effectively.

    3 ) Can you quicken a fireball with your own use of a feat requiring a 7th level spell slot and then empower it with the rod even though it is now no longer in the range of 1-6 level spells?

    5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon?

    1) Antimagic works. Also undetectable alignment, nondetection or misdirection (I think all three) can prevent the paladin from detecting evil in the first place, so they may not smite. Also make the opponent Good (or neutral).

    3) No, it's a 7th level spell that is treated as 3rd for DC's, bypassing Globe of Invulnerability, etc.

    5) Standard action for each or all. Most people walk around with them activated to avoid this. You've got to work hard to enforce this.


    Majuba wrote:


    3) No, it's a 7th level spell that is treated as 3rd for DC's, bypassing Globe of Invulnerability, etc.

    I disagree. The only metamagic that actually raises the spell's level is Heighten. All others leave it the same level but make it take up a higher slot.


    mdt wrote:
    Majuba wrote:


    3) No, it's a 7th level spell that is treated as 3rd for DC's, bypassing Globe of Invulnerability, etc.
    I disagree. The only metamagic that actually raises the spell's level is Heighten. All others leave it the same level but make it take up a higher slot.

    I would say Majuba is right.


    mdt wrote:
    Majuba wrote:


    3) No, it's a 7th level spell that is treated as 3rd for DC's, bypassing Globe of Invulnerability, etc.
    I disagree. The only metamagic that actually raises the spell's level is Heighten. All others leave it the same level but make it take up a higher slot.

    I agree with MDT here. It specifically says that the level of the spell is not raised (except in Heighten Spell's case).

    Now, a DM COULD rule that "Well, the metamagic rod can only affect arcane energies of 1-6th level. The energy you are usign to cast this spell is 7th level, so it cannot affect the spell." That could be a way to interpret it, but that isn't the rules as written.


    rmbrodeu wrote:

    Hello everyone, I had some questions about rules that need to be clarified if you don't mind helping me.

    1 )Is there an ability in the game that can prevent a paladins SMITE EVIL from working effectively. Basically I want some challenged to be equal for everyone in the group and sometimes with the new smite evil a paladin can quickly steal all the glory. Short of increasing a monsters hit points, is there a spell perhaps or a way to circumvent smite evil if the create is evil.

    I never recommend directly circumventing major class abilities. Its why they changed immunities to sneak attack, we shouldnt be bringing it back in other ways. That said, if you want to reduce the impact of smite evil there are lots of good ways.

    1. Dont make it obvious the enemies are evil, if the Paladin has to spend a round figuring out if he should smite, then his overall impact is reduced. A paladin that smites when he doesnt know the enemy is evil should probably get a talking to from his god.

    2. Multiple enemies, a single big bad evil guy is what the paladins are best at, its what they were designed for. Split the encounter into multiple lower CR enemies, and smite doesnt go as far or for as long.

    3. Put minions between the Big Bad and the paladin, he has to either wait to get the benefits of smite, or spend it cutting through the minions first. Other classes dont have this problem, a fighters feats are always on, barbarian will likely keep raging, the paladin smite is far more expendable.

    rmbrodeu wrote:


    3 ) This deals with metamagic rods. You can only enhance one spell through the use of metamagic rods and further enhancing of a spell would be done through the PC. If you have a rod of empower (1-6 level spells) can you quicken a fireball with your own use of a feat requiring a 7th level spell slot and then empower it with the rod even though it is now no longer in the range of 1-6 level spells. Assume this is a wizard. It seems it is still a third level spell in its effects such as DC, but is it considered a seventh level spell for determining using it with a metamagic rod?

    metamagic feats increase the spell slot, not the level of the spell (except heighten). So you should be able to use the rod.

    rmbrodeu wrote:

    4 ) For the 7th level spell, mages sword, once you have casted the sword spell, does it continue to attack or do you have to direct it. I believe by reading the rule that is continues to attack and as a STANDARD action you can change targets but if you keep the same target you can do other actions in the round.

    "Each round after the first, you can use a standard action to switch the sword to a new target. If you do not, the sword continues to attack the previous round's target."

    It does not require you to direct it each round, you only have to spend the action if you want it to attack a new target.

    rmbrodeu wrote:


    5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this was a free action unless it says otherwise like on the ability Dancing. It just seems a command word would be a free action and is how I always have played it.

    RaW you have to activate the weapon ability and its a standard action. Some people ignore this ability, or allow player to always have it on. I am still on the fence about how I would rule it.

    Dark Archive

    rmbrodeu wrote:

    5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this...

    For what it is worth, James Jacobs replied to a similar question in this thread Why Are Weapon Energy Effects Command Word Activated with this:

    James Jacobs wrote:
    While it's a command word to activate or deactivate a weapon like a flaming or a frost weapon... once activated it stays on. Sheathing it suppresses the energy automatically, and when you draw the weapon later it's ready to go. You'd only want to turn off the energy effect, as a previous poster said, when you're facing something that using that type of energy against is a bad idea.


    Lord oKOyA wrote:
    rmbrodeu wrote:

    5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this...

    For what it is worth, James Jacobs replied to a similar question in this thread Why Are Weapon Energy Effects Command Word Activated with this:

    James Jacobs wrote:
    While it's a command word to activate or deactivate a weapon like a flaming or a frost weapon... once activated it stays on. Sheathing it suppresses the energy automatically, and when you draw the weapon later it's ready to go. You'd only want to turn off the energy effect, as a previous poster said, when you're facing something that using that type of energy against is a bad idea.

    Note however, that he never answered the question of 'what about weapons without sheaths' like maces, axes, pikes, quarterstaffs, etc. ;)

    With those... you should probably turn them off before you put them under your pillow at night.


    mdt wrote:
    Lord oKOyA wrote:
    rmbrodeu wrote:

    5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this...

    For what it is worth, James Jacobs replied to a similar question in this thread Why Are Weapon Energy Effects Command Word Activated with this:

    James Jacobs wrote:
    While it's a command word to activate or deactivate a weapon like a flaming or a frost weapon... once activated it stays on. Sheathing it suppresses the energy automatically, and when you draw the weapon later it's ready to go. You'd only want to turn off the energy effect, as a previous poster said, when you're facing something that using that type of energy against is a bad idea.

    Note however, that he never answered the question of 'what about weapons without sheaths' like maces, axes, pikes, quarterstaffs, etc. ;)

    With those... you should probably turn them off before you put them under your pillow at night.

    Sheathed does not just mean a sword in a sheath, it means put in its respective place. It could be the hook on your belt, or a loop to slide the axe handle through, but just about ever weapon has something to hold it to you when you arent holding it. When it's in that, its 'sheathed'.

    Liberty's Edge

    I just got done reading the core rule book...I noticed that Gauntlets of Ogre Power are missing. I see that they have new belts and all but as far as this magic item goes, I can't seem to find it. Is this a misprint, not OGL or what?


    Aries_Omega wrote:
    I just got done reading the core rule book...I noticed that Gauntlets of Ogre Power are missing. I see that they have new belts and all but as far as this magic item goes, I can't seem to find it. Is this a misprint, not OGL or what?

    They got rid of any equipment that modified physical stats and replaced them with belts. So you get a 'Belt of Ogre Power' now. Same for mental stats, all the mental stats are headbands now. You can stack enchantments, so it's no big deal. So a belt of +2 Dex and +2 Str is fine and legal. Just gotta pay for all the stuff you want.

    The Exchange

    Kolokotroni wrote:
    mdt wrote:
    Lord oKOyA wrote:
    rmbrodeu wrote:

    5 ) For magic weapons with the frost, flame, shock, or thundering special ability, is it a standard action to activate those qualities of the weapon or it is a standard action. On page 468 it says that a activation if required is a standard action. I always assumed this...

    For what it is worth, James Jacobs replied to a similar question in this thread Why Are Weapon Energy Effects Command Word Activated with this:

    James Jacobs wrote:
    While it's a command word to activate or deactivate a weapon like a flaming or a frost weapon... once activated it stays on. Sheathing it suppresses the energy automatically, and when you draw the weapon later it's ready to go. You'd only want to turn off the energy effect, as a previous poster said, when you're facing something that using that type of energy against is a bad idea.

    Other than via antimagic, dispell magic where is this hypothetical suprression documented?

    Also suppose you had flaming caltrops... and you dropped them. Is it really a good idea to believe they could *never* be picked up again?

    Rings, etc activate for caster-level rounds. It seems a far more reasonable approach.


    cp wrote:


    Other than via antimagic, dispell magic where is this hypothetical suprression documented?

    Also suppose you had flaming caltrops... and you dropped them. Is it really a good idea to believe they could *never* be picked up again?

    Rings, etc activate for caster-level rounds. It seems a far more reasonable approach.

    The 'hypothetical suppression' is documented right in the ability. in example Flaming from the PRD says The fire does not harm the wielder. This is what James is talking about.

    As even the 3.5 FAQ on the subject mentions the same thing, but I am not going to quote the whole thing as its HUGE.

    D&D 3.5 FAQ 6/30/09 page55 wrote:


    The energy from a flaming, frost, shock, flaming burst, icy burst, or shocking burst weapon never harms you while you’re wielding or carrying the activated weapon (see the power descriptions), and it will not harm your equipment. If you lose or set down an activated weapon, the energy it produces will harm other objects it touches, so it is best to deactivate it first.

    As it never harms you then you can easily put it away in a sheath without any side effects.

    Hope that helps.

    The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

    Zark wrote:
    mdt wrote:
    Majuba wrote:


    3) No, it's a 7th level spell that is treated as 3rd for DC's, bypassing Globe of Invulnerability, etc.
    I disagree. The only metamagic that actually raises the spell's level is Heighten.
    I would say Majuba is right.

    I would say Majuba is wrong and MDT is right.


    James Risner wrote:


    I would say Majuba is wrong and MDT is right.

    LOL, don't get that often. ;)

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