Arcane bond question - wanting official answer


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

I have just read the rules & checked with the latest errata to see if anything has changed since I got my book

the item for arcane bond is masterwork & a few posts I have read say about taking a composite longbow - this would be my choice as well but the way I read it the strength bonus is an option for the bow not standard

So can the arcane bond item which is free at 1st level be given strength bonuses for free also & if so up to what point ?
as another post said you could just say strength bonus of +50 then sell the item go through the procedure to get a new bonded item & pocket the remainder of the money

maybe if it is allowed to be free there should be a cap - like strength bonus up to the characters current strength bonus (or +1 above their str bonus)

was hoping for an official answer that maybe can be included in the errata ?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would say that since it cannot be done out of any special material, I would go with the spirit of the rule and disallow anything on the top of the regular default , including Strength bonuses for composite bows.

Scarab Sages

I would kind of agree but since the only benefit of a non strength enhanced bow is an extra 10' range increment why get it apart from that you can


Ceefood wrote:

I have just read the rules & checked with the latest errata to see if anything has changed since I got my book

the item for arcane bond is masterwork & a few posts I have read say about taking a composite longbow - this would be my choice as well but the way I read it the strength bonus is an option for the bow not standard

So can the arcane bond item which is free at 1st level be given strength bonuses for free also & if so up to what point ?
as another post said you could just say strength bonus of +50 then sell the item go through the procedure to get a new bonded item & pocket the remainder of the money

maybe if it is allowed to be free there should be a cap - like strength bonus up to the characters current strength bonus (or +1 above their str bonus)

was hoping for an official answer that maybe can be included in the errata ?

Honestly I think the question is so ludicrous that I would be extremely surprised if Jason would make time to answer it.

This is why:

PRPG p. 78 wrote:


Wizards who select a bonded object begin play with one
at no cost
. Objects that are the subject of an arcane bond
must fall into one of the following categories: amulet,
ring, staff, wand, or weapon. These objects are always
masterwork quality
.
PRPG p. 78 wrote:


If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be
replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp
per wizard level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This
ritual takes 8 hours to complete. Items replaced in this
way do not possess any of the additional enchantments
of the previous bonded item.

You only get a free item when you start the game.

If you destroy or lose the bonded item you pay for the replacement your self. In addition you pay 200gp/level.
You will get ruined if you try to replace these items on a regular basis.

Further, "these objects are always masterwork quality" (at character creation). Nothing is stated anywhere about additional propperties such as composite bow strength bonuses. If you are lucky your GM will allow you to start with a bow of strength maching your character. But you should not count on getting anything but a standard zero strength composite bow.
If you want to go for a quick buck your best bet is asking for a quarterstaff (600gp).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Duh, the whole weapon bonded object idea is kinda sub-optimal - one solid sunder/disarm and there you go. Much better to have it as a ring/amulet/codpiece (mmm arcane bonded codpiece ... )


Ceefood wrote:
I would kind of agree but since the only benefit of a non strength enhanced bow is an extra 10' range increment why get it apart from that you can

Composite bows only offer additional range to characters with strength below 12. For an archer with 10 str it might be nice to have. For anyone else with str up to 11 it is just a waste.

Scarab Sages

Grandfather your first response comes off as very rude not sure if itsmeant to - I have read all those rules & agree but in all the posts I have read many are saying about taking a composite bow with strength enhancement & there is nothing in the writeup for composite bows saying it is made of any other material prohibiting a character from taking it. just cause its masterwork doesnt mean it cant be a +4 str composite MW longbow so long as its the same material & the rules dont indicate it is - in RL more powerful bows are made of tougher & usually differing materials but nothing is listed here

as for selling you get the free item at major high level of strength bonus & sell it then buy a new item like a ring which is magical & make that your new bonded item or find a better different item is the course of your adventures & make it your new bonded item & keep the money from the first one - I cant see anything in the rules prohibiting you from changing your item from one type to the another different type

the reason I would look at taking a bow is multiclassing where the other class is more capable of using it & would therefore benefit from a powerful bow for no charge


Ceefood wrote:

Grandfather your first response comes off as very rude not sure if itsmeant to - I have read all those rules & agree but in all the posts I have read many are saying about taking a composite bow with strength enhancement & there is nothing in the writeup for composite bows saying it is made of any other material prohibiting a character from taking it. just cause its masterwork doesnt mean it cant be a +4 str composite MW longbow so long as its the same material & the rules dont indicate it is - in RL more powerful bows are made of tougher & usually differing materials but nothing is listed here

as for selling you get the free item at major high level of strength bonus & sell it then buy a new item like a ring which is magical & make that your new bonded item or find a better different item is the course of your adventures & make it your new bonded item & keep the money from the first one - I cant see anything in the rules prohibiting you from changing your item from one type to the another different type

the reason I would look at taking a bow is multiclassing where the other class is more capable of using it & would therefore benefit from a powerful bow for no charge

You have to admit, the idea is a bit ludicrous...

The most ludicrous part is the +50 STR part. Even I, the almighty tarrasque, don't have enough STR to use that. Nobody does. That would require a STR of 110 to be able to fire that bow effectively. Because of this, you couldn't even sell it. Why would someone pay 5,400 gold for a bow he will forever be -2 to hit? If a guy has a 20 STR, he pays 2,900 gold for a magical +1 long composite (STR 20) bow he can use without penalty and saves his 2,500 gold for something else fun and useful.

Even selling that would be problematic - there are very few archers walking around with a 20 STR. Those that are, probably have a few adventuring levels and are not rally in the market for non-magical weapons.

And of course there is the replacement cost...

That's assuming a DM would even consider ignoring the replacement cost and allowing a permanent cash-cow loophole in the rules:

Player: I start this character with 1.8 million gold pieces.
DM: 1.8 million!?
Player: Oh, yeah, I just used my arcane bond to make 200 masterwork long composite (STR 20) bows and sold them all.
DM: Oh, OK then. What do you want to buy with your 1.8 million gold?
Player: Here's my list...
Other Player: can I be a millionaire too?
DM: Of course not. Don't be silly. You don't have a rules loop-hole to break the campaign.

***********************************************************************

Now if it were me DMing it, I would allow you to begin with whtever bow you can use proficiently. If you don't have any longbow profiencies when you acquire the bond, then you cannot bond with a longbow. If you do have the proficiency, and you have a STR of 12 (for example) then you can bond with a STR 12 composite longbow, but not with a STR 14 composite longbow.

I would rule it this way because "bond" means a special connection, understanding, affinity. I can't imagine having an affinity for something you can't even use.

Wizard: Yeah, this is my special weapon. I bonded with it. I'm in tune with its every need, every nuance, every quirk. It's like an extension of my own self, my mind, my body, my spirit. We're so in tune that just having it with me makes me more magical.
Fighter: You know you're holding it wrong, don't you? The other end goes up.
Wizard: Oh? What's the difference?
Fighter: Extension of your self? Really? Your self needs to find a shrink...

Edit: Oooh, I ninja'd the Grandfather. Me. A big old sneaky tarrasque ninja. While I'm typing this, both of our posts actually say "1 second ago". What are the odds?


Ceefood wrote:
Grandfather your first response comes off as very rude not sure if itsmeant to ...

I am sorry if I have offended you. It was not intentional. My initial remark was in responseof the Thread title which appears to demand an official answer. With all the going-ons at Paizo I do not think it is going to happen.

To me the notion of a +50 composite bow is in all honesty ludicrous. As far as I know no creature in any book ever printed has a Strength of 110 (which gives a +50 bonus). Why anyone would think Arcane Bond, which to me appears balanced and well written, can be used as a wizard's ATM is beyond me.

RAW the wizard gets 1 masterwork item. Nothing is stated about additional capabilities.

Aside from that a bonded weapon is probably a very good option for an arcane archer or an eldritch knight.


DM_Blake wrote:


Wizard: Yeah, this is my special weapon. I bonded with it. I'm in tune with its every need, every nuance, every quirk. It's like an extension of my own self, my mind, my body, my spirit. We're so in tune that just having it with me makes me more magical.
Fighter: You know you're holding it wrong, don't you? The other end goes up.
Wizard: Oh? What's the difference?
Fighter: Extension of your self? Really? Your self needs to find a shrink...

LOL,

Beat me to that post by seconds.

Grand Lodge

PRD wrote:
The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency.

You would only gain the default composite longbow as a free item but it would still be masterwork. Same as the rules state under bonded items...

PRD wrote:
Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material.

Heres an interesting thing... Armor isnt listed as an option for bonded items. I guess that means you cant have a bonded helm, shield, gauntlets, or Codpiece. In Fact the only bonded item than can be worn is a ring; although it might be viable to allow bonded gauntlets as a weapon.


Quijenoth wrote:
PRD wrote:
The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency.

You would only gain the default composite longbow as a free item but it would still be masterwork. Same as the rules state under bonded items...

PRD wrote:
Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material.

Heres an interesting thing... Armor isnt listed as an option for bonded items. I guess that means you cant have a bonded helm, shield, gauntlets, or Codpiece. In Fact the only bonded item than can be worn is a ring; although it might be viable to allow bonded gauntlets as a weapon.

Or a bonded shield, since we've established that it's a weapon...

Scarab Sages

I only used the +50 str as an example of what another thread on arcane bond said - some I think said a +4 longbow which is concievable but they pointed out a loophole saying that if you could get a +4 for free you by same rule you could get a +50 - they were taking it to the extreme

and I totally agree I just to want to make sure that if you can get a MW comp longbow if you can get a str enhanced one cause at the moment I cant see any rule saying you can or you cant

the reason for the title asking for an official answer is cause in all the threads I read including archives I didnt see an official response to the questions which included this type of item - I personally would like to see it ruled out as it seems a bit power gaming to me but if you could I would seriously look at it for a multiclass char

and thx Grandfather no offense taken - forums have a way a not allowing tone through easily so things can get misinterpreted as offensive when none are meant

Grand Lodge

DM_Blake wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:
Heres an interesting thing... Armor isnt listed as an option for bonded items. I guess that means you cant have a bonded helm, shield, gauntlets, or Codpiece. In Fact the only bonded item than can be worn is a ring; although it might be viable to allow bonded gauntlets as a weapon.
Or a bonded shield, since we've established that it's a weapon...

Now, now, lets keep that argument to the other thread :)

Actually I will retract the viability of the gauntlets as an arcane bonded weapon statement since, after reading the entry, they only allow your unarmed strikes to do lethal damage and aren't actually weapons themselves.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Going by the RAW the answer is simple.

You get a masterwork item of the type desired. (of course this means that in terms of wands, rings, and amulets, they are merely items suitable for enchantment with no further properties) if character wants an arcane bond being a str adjusted bow, He is charged out of starting funds for the difference in cost between that and a masterwork bow with the str adjustment desired.

If he chooses instead to forgo that option at creation than he has to get a new item as per the rules at full cost if he desires it later.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4

Would you let a brand new player choose a heavy repeating crossbow as their arcane bond item?
If so, would you let that player sell it at a later time if they changed their mind and wanted a something else, perhaps a ring?


This also begs the question of first level wizards with MW Scatterguns.

I'd highly suggest an errata to limit the GP value of that MW bonded weapon.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lokie wrote:

This also begs the question of first level wizards with MW Scatterguns.

I'd highly suggest an errata to limit the GP value of that MW bonded weapon.

do we really need errata for this? No dm in their right mind would allow this. Solution, "no one is in the market for a MW ludicrous weapon at the moment, you can try again later (never)" Or better yet start the adventure before the wizard is able to do the ritual to get a new bonded item. "Enjoying that concentration check? Good, now what have we learned?"


Kolokotroni wrote:
Lokie wrote:

This also begs the question of first level wizards with MW Scatterguns.

I'd highly suggest an errata to limit the GP value of that MW bonded weapon.

do we really need errata for this? No dm in their right mind would allow this. Solution, "no one is in the market for a MW ludicrous weapon at the moment, you can try again later (never)" Or better yet start the adventure before the wizard is able to do the ritual to get a new bonded item. "Enjoying that concentration check? Good, now what have we learned?"

Your solution is to punish your player? tsk tsk...

I agree that most DM's would not allow it, but leaving the ability that open ended also seems a little off and adding clarification to the next printing of the book would not be out of order.

I've got a player who wants to play a "lesser drow gun mage". I allowed him to pick up a revolver. He still needs to get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Revolver) as well as any ranged attack feats. No worse than if he had picked up a Repeating Light Crossbow.

If he decides he wants to sell the weapon, he'll find that he will have a hard time finding a buyer with enough money.

Does this make me out of my mind... perhaps... but I've never claimed lucidity.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lokie wrote:


Your solution is to punish your player? tsk tsk...

No stupid deed goes unpunished ;). I never punish a player for trying something new, but deliberate nonsense like selling your expensive bonded weapon? Not going to happen at my table without consequences.


I think Hercules with a Righteous Might spell would have 104 Str, that's close...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MillerHero wrote:

Would you let a brand new player choose a heavy repeating crossbow as their arcane bond item?

If so, would you let that player sell it at a later time if they changed their mind and wanted a something else, perhaps a ring?

One. the player can choose any item that they would be PROFCIENT IN. Unfortunately the requirement for taking the exotic weapon proficiency feat is having a BAB of at least +1. So that leaves that item out until at least 3rd level for a starting character. Which they would have to purchase at full cost as a masterwork exotic weapon.

They want to sell the item later.. fine. Then they have all the penalties of having no arcane bond until it's been replaced.... at full cost.

It's really not rocket science.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
LazarX wrote:
One. the player can choose any item that they would be PROFCIENT IN. Unfortunately the requirement for taking the exotic weapon proficiency feat is having a BAB of at least +1. So that leaves that item out until at least 3rd level for a starting character. Which they would have to purchase at full cost as a masterwork exotic weapon.

I may have missed something, but no where can I find any reference to needing to be proficient with an arcane bond weapon. Could you provide a page number or link?

I also seem to remember Jason saying that they can choose a weapon for which they are not proficient.


I, too, noticed people mentioning getting mighty composites for free as an arcane bond, and have just ignored it, as it would clearly be just the base masterwork.

Also, from PRD: "If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level plus the cost of the masterwork item."

So, first off, do you count being sold as being lost, otherwise they're SOL until they get it back.
Even if that does count as lost, they gotta deal with 1 week of having to make that spellcraft check to cast anything, which can be a scary check at low levels.
And finally, the ritual to re-bond an item does not give you the item for free, you're buying (or could be considered to be crafting it per that reading but spending full price instead of 1/3 and only taking 8hrs) the item separately then spending the gold to rebond it.

So, the idea of selling arcane bonded items as a profession is actually more ludicrous then getting a mighty+50 composite longbow for free at 1st level.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mistwalker wrote:
LazarX wrote:
One. the player can choose any item that they would be PROFCIENT IN. Unfortunately the requirement for taking the exotic weapon proficiency feat is having a BAB of at least +1. So that leaves that item out until at least 3rd level for a starting character. Which they would have to purchase at full cost as a masterwork exotic weapon.

I may have missed something, but no where can I find any reference to needing to be proficient with an arcane bond weapon. Could you provide a page number or link?

I also seem to remember Jason saying that they can choose a weapon for which they are not proficient.

If such a rule does not exist than it's my unofficial house rule from now on. Why in the three galaxies would you want for a bonded weapon be one that you can't even properly use? It's not like mages have a huge BAB cushion hidden around somewhere to absorb that -4 penalty last I checked.

Contributor

So, the 1st level wizard wants to get an extremely expensive bonded object so he can hock it and then use the proceeds to buy a cheaper bonded object and all sorts of fun stuff? Sure! I'll allow that. The pawnbroker will happily take that deal. In fact, he already has a buyer lined up....

SCENE -- INTERIOR, SPOOKY CRYPT

PAWNBROKER: Master! I have another! A masterwork composite longbow!
LICH: So soon? Delightful! (CACKLES MANIACALLY) Put it with the others and take a purse of gold for yourself from the table. Did you catch the little wizard's name, by chance?
PAWNBROKER: Of course, master. (WHISPERS CONSPIRATORIALLY)
LICH: Excellent! (CACKLES MANIACALLY then proceeds to write name in book, then flips to another section and CACKLES MORE.)

Close Shot on the following:

Quote:

Scry

....

Connection Will Save Modifier
Likeness or picture -2
Possession or garment -4
Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, etc. -10
*You must have some sort of connection (see below) to a creature of which you have no knowledge.

Now where do you think a bonded object would fall on this list?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

*evil conspiratal grin*

Okay... that just might work... with a little bit of magical help since the bond is severed when a new object is selected. so initially it would fall under body part but degrade to posession fairly quickly.

Contributor

LazarX wrote:

*evil conspiratal grin*

Okay... that just might work... with a little bit of magical help since the bond is severed when a new object is selected. so initially it would fall under body part but degrade to posession fairly quickly.

Oh, I think that severing the bond is the same as severing a lock of hair. It may not be part of you anymore, but it was part of you, and that's all that's needed for metaphysical purposes.

Locks of hair don't degrade. No reason formerly bonded objects should either, especially if stored untouched in a lich's curio cabinet.


Hmm.. an official ruling?

Smack the player upside the back of the head when they ask.
Repeat as necessary.

And, also, audit their character sheet after they are done, and every couple of levels or so..

-S

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